Keine Engel
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UK UK - Alistair Wilson, 30, murdered at home, Nairn, Scotland, 28 Nov 2004
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Was the door to the house actually painted blue or black?
BBC Scotland on Twitter
BBC Scotland on Twitter
Keine Engel
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I'm getting "this tweet is not available" message^ so I'm not sure if you ARE asking or if I'm missing something from tweet
Here goes anyways...
It does look more like black to me, not really sure thou?
Sorry about tweet link, this previously posted one is good.I'm getting "this tweet is not available" message^ so I'm not sure if you ARE asking or if I'm missing something from tweet
Here goes anyways...
It does look more like black to me, not really sure thou?
The Doorstep Murder - Welcome to The Doorstep Murder - BBC Sounds
Keine Engel
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It linked to tweet ok but it was only the audio clip then ^ below??
Keine Engel
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I hadn't heard about the other guns found in the town before, the fact one was identical to the murder weapon seems curious
Markybug
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Could £20bn scandal have been behind assassination of banker on his doorstep? | Daily Mail Online
Interesting theory. Although Paul isn’t exactly a rare name.
Interesting theory. Although Paul isn’t exactly a rare name.
What is interesting, is that this is a brand new article!
Thinking that if this was an organized hit of sorts, they would have access to guns and not have to use an antique gun. imo.
ETA.
If one considers the name PAUL written on the envelope and the victim's alleged links to a bank fiasco, this old expression comes to mind....
To rob Peter to pay Paul - Wikipedia
"To rob Peter to pay Paul"
A replica of the antique gun used to kill Mr Wilson at his home in Nairn in November 2004
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Markybug
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I hadn't heard about the other guns found in the town before, the fact one was identical to the murder weapon seems curious
Yeh , suspicious or just coincidence?
Keine Engel
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I'm not really sure
Somehow I expect they'll trace back to WWII kept as 'mementos' so not that 'suspicious' but whatever happened after until they were recently found could then maybe lead to a connection?
If ONLY the 3 guns mentioned (having been found in recent years) I don't know whether I believe it's coincidence?
It's all such an intriguingly strange case
Markybug
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I'm not really sure
Somehow I expect they'll trace back to WWII kept as 'mementos' so not that 'suspicious' but whatever happened after until they were recently found could then maybe lead to a connection?
If ONLY the 3 guns mentioned (having been found in recent years) I don't know whether I believe it's coincidence?
It's all such an intriguingly strange case
What are the details on the 3 guns? Are they all the same type as the murder weapon ? I only was aware of one identical gun appearing
Keine Engel
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The murder weapon & one found in Naith 2016 are both the same - 1920s Haenel Schmeisser semi-automatic, nicknamed a “pocket pistol"
"Police Scotland started reinvestigating the Alistair Wilson case in 2016, following a cold case review.
A short time later, a second Haenel Schmeisser was found in Nairn and handed in to the police.
It was identical to the murder weapon found in the drain 12 years earlier.
A third antique gun was also found in Nairn in 2016. It was not a Haenel Schmeisser, but a Belgian-made Melior pistol of the same calibre."
..But, as forensic firearms expert Mark Mastaglio found during his career, they’re fairly rare in the UK these days.
When Mark was lead scientist for the Forensic Science Service he collated data on guns coming into the UK.
“The Haenel does have advantages because of its concealability,” he says. “They’re so small you can secrete them away in your pocket.”
But he says there are not many in circulation.
“They’re certainly not what I can refer to as one of the brand leaders of weapons that are used on the streets,” he says."
The Doorstep Murder - BBC News
"Police Scotland started reinvestigating the Alistair Wilson case in 2016, following a cold case review.
A short time later, a second Haenel Schmeisser was found in Nairn and handed in to the police.
It was identical to the murder weapon found in the drain 12 years earlier.
A third antique gun was also found in Nairn in 2016. It was not a Haenel Schmeisser, but a Belgian-made Melior pistol of the same calibre."
..But, as forensic firearms expert Mark Mastaglio found during his career, they’re fairly rare in the UK these days.
When Mark was lead scientist for the Forensic Science Service he collated data on guns coming into the UK.
“The Haenel does have advantages because of its concealability,” he says. “They’re so small you can secrete them away in your pocket.”
But he says there are not many in circulation.
“They’re certainly not what I can refer to as one of the brand leaders of weapons that are used on the streets,” he says."
The Doorstep Murder - BBC News
Nov 23 2014 rbbm.
Decade on, pistol still seen as key to murder mystery
"Several days after the murder, the pre-war German pistol used in the slaying was found in a drain just a few hundred yards away from the scene in the small Morayshire town."
"It is a “vest pocket” pistol designed by Hugo Schmeisser and manufactured by the Haenel arms company in Suhl, Germany, in the 1920s – commonly known as a Haenel Schmeisser Model 1.
Earlier this year, Detective Constable Roddy Isles used the gunboards.com forum to appeal for information about the weapon from enthusiasts and collectors."
“An explanation for any markings on the firearm? In particular the significance of the comma between Suhl and Schmeisser stamp of the left hand side.
“Was the firearm exported from Germany and if so where to?
“Any person with information about this firearm, serial number 11843, or any firearm near to that serial number and its history.
“Details of any person who may have carried out repairs or maintenance on this firearm.”
"A man named “Vaclav” from Russia was the first to respond, saying that he had been “long watching” the story about Mr Wilson’s murder.
He added that it would be “very difficult to determine” when the pistol was made.
Another enthusiast, Stefan Klein from Germany, was more helpful, providing detailed information about dozens of Haenel Schmeisser Model 1s.
He added: “Your gun is an early example. So maybe it is from 1922 or 1923. It is close to a smaller bunch of guns which were marked for export."
The Sunday Express discovered that a Haenel Schmeisser Model 1 with a serial number very similar to that of the murder weapon – 11383 – was sold at auction near Chicago earlier this year.
Jonathan Ware, of Cabela’s department store in Hoffman Estates, Illinois, said: “It came from a regular customer, an antiques collector
who I don’t think has ever fired a gun in his life."
Decade on, pistol still seen as key to murder mystery
"Several days after the murder, the pre-war German pistol used in the slaying was found in a drain just a few hundred yards away from the scene in the small Morayshire town."
"It is a “vest pocket” pistol designed by Hugo Schmeisser and manufactured by the Haenel arms company in Suhl, Germany, in the 1920s – commonly known as a Haenel Schmeisser Model 1.
Earlier this year, Detective Constable Roddy Isles used the gunboards.com forum to appeal for information about the weapon from enthusiasts and collectors."
“An explanation for any markings on the firearm? In particular the significance of the comma between Suhl and Schmeisser stamp of the left hand side.
“Was the firearm exported from Germany and if so where to?
“Any person with information about this firearm, serial number 11843, or any firearm near to that serial number and its history.
“Details of any person who may have carried out repairs or maintenance on this firearm.”
"A man named “Vaclav” from Russia was the first to respond, saying that he had been “long watching” the story about Mr Wilson’s murder.
He added that it would be “very difficult to determine” when the pistol was made.
Another enthusiast, Stefan Klein from Germany, was more helpful, providing detailed information about dozens of Haenel Schmeisser Model 1s.
He added: “Your gun is an early example. So maybe it is from 1922 or 1923. It is close to a smaller bunch of guns which were marked for export."
The Sunday Express discovered that a Haenel Schmeisser Model 1 with a serial number very similar to that of the murder weapon – 11383 – was sold at auction near Chicago earlier this year.
Jonathan Ware, of Cabela’s department store in Hoffman Estates, Illinois, said: “It came from a regular customer, an antiques collector
who I don’t think has ever fired a gun in his life."
Keine Engel
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I think that's undoubtedly how it initially got into the U.K. & I'd think unlikely it was still in the possession of whoever brought it here but ??.. but maybe a family member(s)
or if anyone who has sold/given away similar gun(s) which they've had in the family hopefully will give the police any info. at all they can...which quite possibly could help?
**
F.Y.I.** For anyone not in U.K. it can't be stressed enough how rare any gun is here (even before the laws changed) so it would be definitely something you would remember.
Keine Engel
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You know,
I still really don't know what I think?
This ^ just seems it could potentially give police some kind of lead...I mean 'anything' could help break the case & unfortunately I don't see they've got much else.
I can't see any way this could be connected to any business or personal banking issues after this length of investigation to be honest.
This was BIG news in the entire U.K. & undoubtedly had every source of investigative aid made possible to the police. The 'Bank' is a major national financial institution so you can bet your a$$ no expense was spared looking into every angle from the 'inside'
Also with this in mind, as successful as he was he was still just 30, I doubt he'd be in such position to even have the authority or ability to access anything of much without it going thru various official procedures & checks. Certainly nothing near the level (not even for him to imagine he could) that would lead to blatently risk murder right on someone doorstep!?!
**As I know next to nothing about the inside dealings of banking or murdering people I may be very, very wrong about this
**
Keine Engel
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If nothing else ruling out these weapons is a positive.
It does seem plausible it could bring a tip/clue or even info. leading in a new direction? Due to the low numbers produced by whittling down possibilities they're then able to rule out, it can do nothing but help I guess
Markybug
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You know,
I still really don't know what I think?
This ^ just seems it could potentially give police some kind of lead...I mean 'anything' could help break the case & unfortunately I don't see they've got much else.
I can't see any way this could be connected to any business or personal banking issues after this length of investigation to be honest.
This was BIG news in the entire U.K. & undoubtedly had every source of investigative aid made possible to the police. The 'Bank' is a major national financial institution so you can bet your a$$ no expense was spared looking into every angle from the 'inside'
Also with this in mind, as successful as he was he was still just 30, I doubt he'd be in such position to even have the authority or ability to access anything of much without it going thru various official procedures & checks. Certainly nothing near the level (not even for him to imagine he could) that would lead to blatently risk murder right on someone doorstep!?!
**As I know next to nothing about the inside dealings of banking or murdering people I may be very, very wrong about this
It was a very businesslike killing ( no offence meant) not a crime of passion or anger ? Almost like a deal went wrong , or time limit was up etc.
Ex-detective claims mystery blue envelope holds key to Alistair Wilson murder
"The obvious questions are, ‘Who is Paul and where is the greetings card that was in that envelope? Was the card sold with it? Was it sitting in someone’s drawer? Where was the card or envelope bought? How many manufacturers of those envelopes are there in the UK and who do they supply to?’”
Bleksley believes the assassin originally intended to negotiate with Alistair.
It’s believed the gunman may have demanded cash."
Image: BBC
When Veronica answered the door, she saw a man in his late 30s wearing a dark jacket and a baseball cap. He asked for Alistair by name, and Veronica duly sent her husband downstairs. A short time later, he reappeared in their sons’ room, clutching a blue envelope addressed to someone called Paul.
Sacred, Sad And Salacious: With Many Meanings, What Is True Blue?
"Back in Colonial America, blue meant indecent. Lawmakers established rigid controls over morals and conduct; the so-called "blue laws" were designed "to encourage people to go to church, and to prohibit people from engaging in secular activities," says David L. Hudson Jr., an author and attorney who teaches about the first amendment at Vanderbilt University and the Nashville School of Law. The idea behind blue laws was to make certain activities illegal on Sundays."
"Comedian Milton Berle even found blue envelopes in his mailbox."
"The idea of blue meaning forbidden, adult, humor worked its way into Hollywood, and became a standard show business term.
"It was used in all areas of the business," says Kenrick. "So if you said something was blue, it meant it was dirty, it had to go."
The Dreaded Blue Envelope
"What is the most feared and dreaded part of living in the Netherlands? The aspect that would make even the Prime Minister quake in his boots? The police? The cheese? The dijks bursting? If you suggested any of these, you’d be wrongity wrong wrong wrong.
So what is it then? Ask any Dutchie and they’ll tell you. It’s receiving the Blue Envelope. What’s the Blue Envelope? Why is it so feared? Let me explain.
The Blue Envelope is the Belastingdienst (Tax Office) getting in contact and most residents will receive them multiple times a year – income tax and road tax to name just two"
Jimmie Dale and the Blue Envelope Murder, by Frank L. Packard
Title: Jimmie Dale and the Blue Envelope Murder
Author: Packard, Frank Lucius (1877-1942)
Date of first publication: 1930
The Greatest Crime Novels of Frank L. Packard (14 Titles in One Edition)
"The obvious questions are, ‘Who is Paul and where is the greetings card that was in that envelope? Was the card sold with it? Was it sitting in someone’s drawer? Where was the card or envelope bought? How many manufacturers of those envelopes are there in the UK and who do they supply to?’”
Bleksley believes the assassin originally intended to negotiate with Alistair.
It’s believed the gunman may have demanded cash."
Image: BBC
When Veronica answered the door, she saw a man in his late 30s wearing a dark jacket and a baseball cap. He asked for Alistair by name, and Veronica duly sent her husband downstairs. A short time later, he reappeared in their sons’ room, clutching a blue envelope addressed to someone called Paul.
Sacred, Sad And Salacious: With Many Meanings, What Is True Blue?
"Back in Colonial America, blue meant indecent. Lawmakers established rigid controls over morals and conduct; the so-called "blue laws" were designed "to encourage people to go to church, and to prohibit people from engaging in secular activities," says David L. Hudson Jr., an author and attorney who teaches about the first amendment at Vanderbilt University and the Nashville School of Law. The idea behind blue laws was to make certain activities illegal on Sundays."
"Comedian Milton Berle even found blue envelopes in his mailbox."
"The idea of blue meaning forbidden, adult, humor worked its way into Hollywood, and became a standard show business term.
"It was used in all areas of the business," says Kenrick. "So if you said something was blue, it meant it was dirty, it had to go."
The Dreaded Blue Envelope
"What is the most feared and dreaded part of living in the Netherlands? The aspect that would make even the Prime Minister quake in his boots? The police? The cheese? The dijks bursting? If you suggested any of these, you’d be wrongity wrong wrong wrong.
So what is it then? Ask any Dutchie and they’ll tell you. It’s receiving the Blue Envelope. What’s the Blue Envelope? Why is it so feared? Let me explain.
The Blue Envelope is the Belastingdienst (Tax Office) getting in contact and most residents will receive them multiple times a year – income tax and road tax to name just two"
Jimmie Dale and the Blue Envelope Murder, by Frank L. Packard
Title: Jimmie Dale and the Blue Envelope Murder
Author: Packard, Frank Lucius (1877-1942)
Date of first publication: 1930
The Greatest Crime Novels of Frank L. Packard (14 Titles in One Edition)
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