Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #11

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May 22 2019
VIDEO.
Apotex exploring sale options: Bloomberg
"Canadian drugmaker Apotex is reportedly exploring sale options after some investors and major pharmaceutical companies expressed interest. The company is controlled by the family of late founder and CEO Barry Sherman, who was found dead along with his wife in their Toronto mansion in 2017. Bloomberg News' Drew Armstrong reports."
 
I apologize for writing a long post. After googling Steve Ryan, I found some of his prior statements more relevant when I reflect back on what he said.

Ryan is a retired Toronto Det.Sgt. homicide investigator who retired in the summer of 2017 after a 30 year career, when offered the crime specialist position at CP24 News. It is reasonable to think that he has a reliable source(s) in the TPS homicide division, and that m/s was the information he had been given.

Ryan said the 911 call is not linked to the Sherman case, and noted his source as someone "close to the investigation". I trust that his info is coming from TPS.

He reported back in the Dec. 17/17 CP24 news video that TPS will do a thorough investigation, but at the end of the day, we'll find this a murder-suicide. Pretty confident in his source.

Per Lexiintoronto, Ryan was visibly flustered at the TPS presser when they announced a targeted double murder decision. I'm sure he was per his quote in the CTV article listed below which was made only the day before after Greenspan's investigation publicly announced that it was a double murder. Ryan was so confident in his sources that it was still a m/s,despite Greenspan's investigation, he was quoted in the Jan. 20 CTV article:

"Former homicide detective Steve Ryan said that he believes homicide detectives would let the public know if they had any reason to suspect foul play.
“They never sit on that information,” he said."


He may or may not have changed his mind on m/s, but he and Star reporter Kevin Donovan seem to have had the same feedback from their TPS sources. The difference noted in the two reporters is Donovan is critical of TPS and Ryan hasn't been.

Steve Ryan obviously believed his source(s) as credible. (I tend to think they were). His following statement to CTV News on Jan. 9/18 after Greenspan accused TPS of misleading the public because of a m/s mind set is relevant imo in answering our questions of how/why did LE think it was m/s immediately after seeing the crime scene.

"Steve Ryan, another former TPS homicide detective and ex-colleague of Klatt’s, says police are trying to do a thorough job in the case and are simply trying to get all the facts.

“There must have been compelling evidence in that home for them to make that announcement,” Ryan said of the early statements in the case, during an interview with CP24 on Tuesday. “There’s no other reason to do it.”

I trust that TPS is not incompetent and that compelling evidence from the crime scene did lead them to consider this a m/s investigation. For me, at least I now feel that this is true, and that it is also true that LE continued to treat the case as a m/s until the second autopsy results were made public six weeks later.

Based on what we've heard of delayed questioning of witnesses at the home, reviewing surveillance videos, etc.,I'm not sure that TPS changed from a m/s theory until months after their news presser, if in fact they have. jmo

ETA links to Steve Ryan's statements.
Sherman lawyer suggests police misled public
Sherman family's private investigators believe couple was murdered: report

A Q&A with CP24 Crime Specialist Steve Ryan

Toronto homicide cop retires after 30 years
 
casesensitive said:
I apologize for writing a long post. After googling Steve Ryan, I found some of his prior statements more relevant when I reflect back on what he said.

Ryan is a retired Toronto Det.Sgt. homicide investigator who retired in the summer of 2017 after a 30 year career, when offered the crime specialist position at CP24 News. It is reasonable to think that he has a reliable source(s) in the TPS homicide division, and that m/s was the information he had been given.

Ryan said the 911 call is not linked to the Sherman case, and noted his source as someone "close to the investigation". I trust that his info is coming from TPS.

He reported back in the Dec. 17/17 CP24 news video that TPS will do a thorough investigation, but at the end of the day, we'll find this a murder-suicide. Pretty confident in his source.

Per Lexiintoronto, Ryan was visibly flustered at the TPS presser when they announced a targeted double murder decision. I'm sure he was per his quote in the CTV article listed below which was made only the day before after Greenspan's investigation publicly announced that it was a double murder. Ryan was so confident in his sources that it was still a m/s,despite Greenspan's investigation, he was quoted in the Jan. 20 CTV article:

"Former homicide detective Steve Ryan said that he believes homicide detectives would let the public know if they had any reason to suspect foul play.
“They never sit on that information,” he said."


He may or may not have changed his mind on m/s, but he and Star reporter Kevin Donovan seem to have had the same feedback from their TPS sources. The difference noted in the two reporters is Donovan is critical of TPS and Ryan hasn't been.

Steve Ryan obviously believed his source(s) as credible. (I tend to think they were). His following statement to CTV News on Jan. 9/18 after Greenspan accused TPS of misleading the public because of a m/s mind set is relevant imo in answering our questions of how/why did LE think it was m/s immediately after seeing the crime scene.

"Steve Ryan, another former TPS homicide detective and ex-colleague of Klatt’s, says police are trying to do a thorough job in the case and are simply trying to get all the facts.

“There must have been compelling evidence in that home for them to make that announcement,” Ryan said of the early statements in the case, during an interview with CP24 on Tuesday. “There’s no other reason to do it.”

I trust that TPS is not incompetent and that compelling evidence from the crime scene did lead them to consider this a m/s investigation. For me, at least I now feel that this is true, and that it is also true that LE continued to treat the case as a m/s until the second autopsy results were made public six weeks later.

Based on what we've heard of delayed questioning of witnesses at the home, reviewing surveillance videos, etc.,I'm not sure that TPS changed from a m/s theory until months after their news presser, if in fact they have. jmo

ETA links to Steve Ryan's statements.
Sherman lawyer suggests police misled public
Sherman family's private investigators believe couple was murdered: report

A Q&A with CP24 Crime Specialist Steve Ryan

Toronto homicide cop retires after 30 years
Click to expand...
K.Donovan also believed his TPS sources, hence the last-second changing of his initial story to be 'M/S', as opposed to 'double murder'. I can't see there is any doubt that at least some members of TPS believed this to have been M/S at the time.

We have 3 people here who we can kind of compare.. This Steve Ryan, who is/was a rather 'fresh' convert from TPS to 'reporter'... undoubtedly his ties would still be fresh, and it would be more difficult for him to perhaps be objective at that early point. Tom Klatt is on the family's PI team, and he is also a retired TPS, presumably also with some deep bonds still on the force, but yet one has to presume he is on the same bandwidth as Greenspan, in his thinking. Then there is KD, who is purely investigative reporter for a major news outlet, who has no real ties to TPS, other than of course he has developed some key sources over the years, whom he trusts to get relevant info from. I think it is easier for KD to express criticism of TPS, than it is for newer convert Steve Ryan.

I think basically all 3 of them are saying the same thing - that police thought this was M/S right up until some 6 weeks later when the news conference was held to declare 'double homicide'.

So what would/could be the reasons for why TPS would think that? Right from the beginning, myself, and so many others have felt right from the get-go that it sounded like an obvious double homicide, with the way the bodies were staged. Perhaps MistyWaters is correct in thinking there is something more to it, which we don't know about (yet), such as perhaps a (now deemed fake?) 'suicide note',.... (or perhaps a bogus 911 hangup call made from perhaps B's own cellphone, from outside of the home)?

By the same token that Ryan is saying, “There must have been compelling evidence in that home for them to make that announcement,” there also must have been compelling evidence after 6 weeks of investigation, for TPS to finally come to their determination of 'double homicide'. Up until that point, TPS hadn't made *any* public determination, although words had been used to give away their thinking, and this thinking was backed up by anonymous sources within TPS to virtually all of the news media at the time. KD wasn't the only one, nor Ryan, to have been told this, off the books.

Seems there is a LOT we just don't know about the whys and wherefores of police-thinking (either initially, or even now), and the evidence they had initially, and have accumulated since then, to go on. Some are fine to simply leave it in TPS's hands, trusting in their competence, while others aren't so confident, and are seeking answers as to why certain things were done, or not done, in certain ways. As much as media seems like they are a thorn in TPS's side, surely it can't hurt for TPS to know they have different entities watching them, keeping them on their toes, making sure t's are crossed, making them aware that at some point they may have to show justification for certain actions (or non actions, or slow actions), etc.

Can't wait until this all comes out in the wash, presumably during a trial. As much as I look forward to reading KD's book when it comes out, I think at this time, his hands are too tied, and information is too locked up, for him to write about enough on this case.
 
deugirtni said:
K.Donovan also believed his TPS sources, hence the last-second changing of his initial story to be 'M/S', as opposed to 'double murder'. I can't see there is any doubt that at least some members of TPS believed this to have been M/S at the time.

We have 3 people here who we can kind of compare.. This Steve Ryan, who is/was a rather 'fresh' convert from TPS to 'reporter'... undoubtedly his ties would still be fresh, and it would be more difficult for him to perhaps be objective at that early point. Tom Klatt is on the family's PI team, and he is also a retired TPS, presumably also with some deep bonds still on the force, but yet one has to presume he is on the same bandwidth as Greenspan, in his thinking. Then there is KD, who is purely investigative reporter for a major news outlet, who has no real ties to TPS, other than of course he has developed some key sources over the years, whom he trusts to get relevant info from. I think it is easier for KD to express criticism of TPS, than it is for newer convert Steve Ryan.

I think basically all 3 of them are saying the same thing - that police thought this was M/S right up until some 6 weeks later when the news conference was held to declare 'double homicide'.

So what would/could be the reasons for why TPS would think that? Right from the beginning, myself, and so many others have felt right from the get-go that it sounded like an obvious double homicide, with the way the bodies were staged. Perhaps MistyWaters is correct in thinking there is something more to it, which we don't know about (yet), such as perhaps a (now deemed fake?) 'suicide note',.... (or perhaps a bogus 911 hangup call made from perhaps B's own cellphone, from outside of the home)?

By the same token that Ryan is saying, “There must have been compelling evidence in that home for them to make that announcement,” there also must have been compelling evidence after 6 weeks of investigation, for TPS to finally come to their determination of 'double homicide'. Up until that point, TPS hadn't made *any* public determination, although words had been used to give away their thinking, and this thinking was backed up by anonymous sources within TPS to virtually all of the news media at the time. KD wasn't the only one, nor Ryan, to have been told this, off the books.

Seems there is a LOT we just don't know about the whys and wherefores of police-thinking (either initially, or even now), and the evidence they had initially, and have accumulated since then, to go on. Some are fine to simply leave it in TPS's hands, trusting in their competence, while others aren't so confident, and are seeking answers as to why certain things were done, or not done, in certain ways. As much as media seems like they are a thorn in TPS's side, surely it can't hurt for TPS to know they have different entities watching them, keeping them on their toes, making sure t's are crossed, making them aware that at some point they may have to show justification for certain actions (or non actions, or slow actions), etc.

Can't wait until this all comes out in the wash, presumably during a trial. As much as I look forward to reading KD's book when it comes out, I think at this time, his hands are too tied, and information is too locked up, for him to write about enough on this case.
Click to expand...

As I have posted before, I believe LE positioned it as a M/S for investigative reasons known to them. I also believe LE advised the family to not believe everything they were reading in the press. I also believe the family did not like the TPS public position that it was a M/S, and the family hired Greenspan to provide a different public message, in the interest of not tarnishing BS name/reputation. And finally I believe that is fundamentally why TPS and Greenspan seem to be at odds with each other during the investigation of this case. JMO
 
ldlager said:
As I have posted before, I believe LE positioned it as a M/S for investigative reasons known to them. I also believe LE advised the family to not believe everything they were reading in the press. I also believe the family did not like the TPS public position that it was a M/S, and the family hired Greenspan to provide a different public message, in the interest of not tarnishing BS name/reputation. And finally I believe that is fundamentally why TPS and Greenspan seem to be at odds with each other during the investigation of this case. JMO
Click to expand...

Being at odds with TPS like this is the ultimate dream scenario for a career criminal defence lawyer like Greenspan.

For one, it’s barely practicing law. Monitor information, issue press releases, make statements. Criminal practice can be very painstaking, particularly on constitutional issues involving exclusion/inclusion of evidence.

For two, his clients are wealthy beyond measure. Their motivations are deeply personal, not simply pragmatic.

Finally, he is being paid to generally and frequently discredit TPS. It raises his profile as the guy to take on the police, and he can hope to possibly discredit the force as a whole, which can never hurt his entire practice. And it’s just sport for him.
 
Following in your thoughts Idlager from above^^^^^, I feel much hinds on money talks.

How many people whose parents have been killed, are able to get a large police department to change their call on the cause of double homicide in a six week time frame?

We have no idea of what has taken place behind the scene as fas as TPD or Greenspan’s team.

I think of the Rebecca Zahauah case in California where the opposite side was so open and telling lies, that were incomprehensible from day one!
 
casesensitive said:
I apologize for writing a long post. After googling Steve Ryan, I found some of his prior statements more relevant when I reflect back on what he said.

Ryan is a retired Toronto Det.Sgt. homicide investigator who retired in the summer of 2017 after a 30 year career, when offered the crime specialist position at CP24 News. It is reasonable to think that he has a reliable source(s) in the TPS homicide division, and that m/s was the information he had been given.

Ryan said the 911 call is not linked to the Sherman case, and noted his source as someone "close to the investigation". I trust that his info is coming from TPS.

He reported back in the Dec. 17/17 CP24 news video that TPS will do a thorough investigation, but at the end of the day, we'll find this a murder-suicide. Pretty confident in his source.

Per Lexiintoronto, Ryan was visibly flustered at the TPS presser when they announced a targeted double murder decision. I'm sure he was per his quote in the CTV article listed below which was made only the day before after Greenspan's investigation publicly announced that it was a double murder. Ryan was so confident in his sources that it was still a m/s,despite Greenspan's investigation, he was quoted in the Jan. 20 CTV article:

"Former homicide detective Steve Ryan said that he believes homicide detectives would let the public know if they had any reason to suspect foul play.
“They never sit on that information,” he said."


He may or may not have changed his mind on m/s, but he and Star reporter Kevin Donovan seem to have had the same feedback from their TPS sources. The difference noted in the two reporters is Donovan is critical of TPS and Ryan hasn't been.

Steve Ryan obviously believed his source(s) as credible. (I tend to think they were). His following statement to CTV News on Jan. 9/18 after Greenspan accused TPS of misleading the public because of a m/s mind set is relevant imo in answering our questions of how/why did LE think it was m/s immediately after seeing the crime scene.

"Steve Ryan, another former TPS homicide detective and ex-colleague of Klatt’s, says police are trying to do a thorough job in the case and are simply trying to get all the facts.

“There must have been compelling evidence in that home for them to make that announcement,” Ryan said of the early statements in the case, during an interview with CP24 on Tuesday. “There’s no other reason to do it.”

I trust that TPS is not incompetent and that compelling evidence from the crime scene did lead them to consider this a m/s investigation. For me, at least I now feel that this is true, and that it is also true that LE continued to treat the case as a m/s until the second autopsy results were made public six weeks later.

Based on what we've heard of delayed questioning of witnesses at the home, reviewing surveillance videos, etc.,I'm not sure that TPS changed from a m/s theory until months after their news presser, if in fact they have. jmo

ETA links to Steve Ryan's statements.
Sherman lawyer suggests police misled public
Sherman family's private investigators believe couple was murdered: report

A Q&A with CP24 Crime Specialist Steve Ryan

Toronto homicide cop retires after 30 years
Click to expand...
Interesting. In catching up on this thread I recall that there were a couple of people saying that this was some sort of police coverup, and that they actually believed it was a M/S. There hasn't been any of that kind of discussion in a while so I just figured it was a dead issue, but when someone with such a long connection to TPS Homicide starts questioning things, it makes me wonder.
 
Tighthead said:
Being at odds with TPS like this is the ultimate dream scenario for a career criminal defence lawyer like Greenspan.

For one, it’s barely practicing law. Monitor information, issue press releases, make statements. Criminal practice can be very painstaking, particularly on constitutional issues involving exclusion/inclusion of evidence.

For two, his clients are wealthy beyond measure. Their motivations are deeply personal, not simply pragmatic.

Finally, he is being paid to generally and frequently discredit TPS. It raises his profile as the guy to take on the police, and he can hope to possibly discredit the force as a whole, which can never hurt his entire practice. And it’s just sport for him.
Click to expand...
Good points. One has to wonder about the validity of anything Greenspan says. He was hired because the family was upset at the prospect of this being deemed a murder/suicide. His job from day one was to refute that theory, not to necessarily find the truth. A defence attorney knows how to exploit any small discrepancies and spin them to the benefit of his client. Is it possible that this is what Greenspan is doing here? Painting a picture of what his clients want you to believe what happened?
 
MistyWaters said:
Most if not all large demolition companies are responsible for salvage as well. ie The owners take everything out if the home or business they want to retain and then hire a demolition company who is also responsible for salvaging any usable materials or items for donation. This also serves to reduce the impact to landfills. I think the family can’t be automatically blamed if this was the responsibility of the demolition company they hired.
Click to expand...
I have never seen anything left in a house for demolition. A demolition company will generally remove anything of value from a home including plumbing, valuable materials like marble or quartz, windows, skylights, cabinetry, etc. It's all reusable. The furniture that we can see obviously wouldn't be cheap IKEA stuff given the Sherman's wealth. I'd guess that the family went through the house and removed what they felt was worth keeping, then bulldozed what was left. I'm guessing that they don't wan't Barry's lamp or table showing up on eBay or anywhere else.
 
rickcross said:
Interesting. In catching up on this thread I recall that there were a couple of people saying that this was some sort of police coverup, and that they actually believed it was a M/S. There hasn't been any of that kind of discussion in a while so I just figured it was a dead issue, but when someone with such a long connection to TPS Homicide starts questioning things, it makes me wonder.
Click to expand...

If what Kevin Donovan is reporting is true, the police have either made serious errors or LE had/have good reason to believe this was a m/s. (IMO)

The issue we had here was providing proof to back up statements. (Also my opinion only.)

If the TPS say that this was a m/m, we have to believe them until proven otherwise.

I’m happy Kevin Donovan is pursuing the case. Some things just don’t appear to make sense. (Eg. the delay in questioning the real estate agent, obtaining the CCTV footage from the neighbour, not closing off the street..)
 
Tighthead said:
Likely just privacy.
Click to expand...
Ya but everybody should be afforded the same amount of privacy. If my estate is public record, why shouldn't theirs? Just seems odd. When someone goes to great lengths to hide something, it usually means there's something to hide.
 
Lexiintoronto said:
If what Kevin Donovan is reporting is true, the police have either made serious errors or LE had/have good reason to believe this was a m/s. (IMO)

The issue we had here was providing proof to back up statements. (Also my opinion only.)

If the TPS say that this was a m/m, we have to believe them until proven otherwise.

I’m happy Kevin Donovan is pursuing the case. Some things just don’t appear to make sense. (Eg. the delay in questioning the real estate agent, obtaining the CCTV footage from the neighbour, not closing off the street..)
Click to expand...
I'm happy he is too. Nobody else seems to be putting much effort in to it.
 
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