CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #20

[missy1974]

Sorry Missy! I didn't see you were getting bombarded with the award info. Didn't mean to dogpile.

I didn't mean to dogpile either. I saw the other posts after I made mine. Sorry Missy.

No problemo I don't mind! I have a different opinion, no biggie lol Thanks for the info in your other post @Mony Mony it actually gives a better overview of why they were given the award. So it did include the Mitchley video analysis, and cell phone analysis... going back to Bachman's testimony (the various one's lol), he was asked about both of those things. I'll give Hanke a pat on the back for his QB's investigation though ;-)

 

[missy1974]

Sorry, I just realized that Missy had already posted the 5/21/2019 hearing link. I'm slow...lol

I did... just a note... I asked in L&C chat if there was more... she said that was all she was given... at the end, the judge says we are taking our afternoon break, back in 15 minutes.... I would have liked to have heard what else was discussed.

Have you listened to it yet?

 

[QueenBofOB]

Hmm, you know I can totally see that now. Things like "Don't steal from me" and "Don't kill my family". I imagine Joseph never said those things to anyone else but Chase.

And more than likely some secret passwords, too.

 

[missy1974]

If they did have an additional hearing it would have had to occur before defense rested...so I'm guessing it went nowhere.

I'm not so sure because in that 21st hearing... the judge makes it clear that he does believe it should have been handed over and he does believe it was exculpatory, but because it was discovered before the end of trial it was able to be rectified within the trial. So even if the judge finds that Imes intentionally withheld Exhibit O, I think it's a matter for outside the trial now. But maybe we will find out somehow... eventually LOL All JMO

FYI... that hour + hearing is the quietest I have heard Imes all trial

 

[MrsPC]

I'm not so sure because in that 21st hearing... the judge makes it clear that he does believe it should have been handed over and he does believe it was exculpatory, but because it was discovered before the end of trial it was able to be rectified within the trial. So even if the judge finds that Imes intentionally withheld Exhibit O, I think it's a matter for outside the trial now. But maybe we will find out somehow... eventually LOL All JMO

FYI... that hour + hearing is the quietest I have heard Imes all trial

The Judge already ruled against any sort of Brady violation though the following day (the 22nd), along with his ruling on the motion for a mistrial. Right or am I confused?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

That's what Chase said, and it makes perfect sense.

‘I am a normal man, trying to take care of my three kids and I have lost a very good friend. I wasn’t Joseph’s best friend, but he was mine. I didn’t have many people close to me, but we shared a lot. He told me a lot of things he didn’t tell anyone else.

‘Joseph’s family are the ones who lost the most from all this, no question. But financially I lost everything. I was manufacturing all the waterfalls he was selling and I lost my entire business. Without his sales, I had nothing. I went bankrupt very soon after he disappeared, It killed me financially. I even split up with the mother of my three kids because of the stress."

'Prime suspect' in McStay murder mystery breaks his silence | Daily Mail Online

Thank you for the link. It's good to refresh our memories from time to time. Imo.

Each time I read his own words more things standout to me.

Especially this excerpt.

'Without his sales, I had nothing.'

Imo, this is so revealing. Imo it shows why he murdered Joey, and his family.

CM knew without a doubt if Joey cut him out of all the EIP sales coming in... CM was going to quickly crash, and burn financially.

CM was already tettering on the brink due to being cutout from doing any of the metal working which paid the most money by far.

He was already reduced to being the lowest level hanging fruit crating subcontractor. Joey easily could have found anyone to do those menial tasks for far less pay with no aggravation.

If Joey had still been alive he would have realized at some point he would have found another sub for far less pay to do what CM was doing.

Imo, when he realized his work with Joey was ending altogether due to CMs failure to keep his sticky fingers where they belonged.. he knew he wouldnt have any part of Joey's business sales. The very thing he admitted he needed.

Without those sales CM knew his scamming free wheeling gambling days with Joey were over.

Imo, like many sociopaths who resort to murder, CMs evil mentality was if Joey was going to cut CM out of all the money making sales at EIP he would make sure Joey , and his family wouldn't ever be able to enjoy a dime from any of those sales either.

'Without HIS sales, I had NOTHING.'

Jmhoo

 

[mrjitty]

CM was already tettering on the brink due to being cutout from doing any of the metal working which paid the most money by far.

RSBM

i think @Tortoise is correct that he already fell over the brink in late 2009 when his bank account was closed.

What stuck out for me from Forensic dudes evidence is how the move from 65% to 15% slashed Chase's cashflow, even if it didn't change his profitability.

Cash is king, so if you are bad at finances or have expensive addictions, reduced cashflow can be fatal to your liquidity.

 

[mrjitty]

Having focussed on the dogs I am convinced CM, as a typical sociopath, recruited an oblivious Mike as a flying monkey *

Flying monkeys can be anyone who believes the narcissist's fake persona including the narcissist's spouse, child, friend, sibling or cousin.

According to Atkinson, flying monkeys are usually unwittingly manipulated people who believe the smears about the victim ...

According to Vaknin, proxy abusers can be [....] the victim's associates – manipulated to side with the abuser.

Delving into the history, I believe the original narrative suspect Chase selected was Summer. Chase smears Summer early as does CJ (see corn). The idea of the family going away is linked to the idea of Summer having done something to Joey (IMO). Note Chase later says it wasn't Joey on the Mexico footage. He doesn't say it wasn't Summer.

However I believe Chase's main idea was to manipulate Mikey into putting himself in the middle of the case, and to cast suspicion on himself.

Despite this, the narcissist does not hesitate to make flying monkeys his or her scapegoats when and if needed.

As early as 17 Feb, Chase is talking about how Susan & Mikey don't like Summer....

CM: No. The only time I met Mike is, um, at the wedding and very briefly at Gianni’s I think it was Gianni’s birthday party, and that was really brief because Summer and him kind of clashed and Summer was, or I mean Joseph’s mum and Mikey left fairly early in that birthday party because they were, uh Summer is, Summer tends to have a, she’s very verbal and uh

So here he is retro fitting a suspect

SF: No kidding, you’re not the first person who’s talked to us.

CM: Ok and Mikey is also verbal. She said something about Mikey’s wife I think, and you know, so that, me meeting him there was even brief, I talked to him more in the last week than I’ve ever talked to him, I mean,

SF: So Summer said something about Mike’s wife?

CM: Yeah, Mikey, Mikey’s, well you’ve met Mikey, he’s very, very excitable, that’s the way I

SF: How do you know I’ve met Mikey?

Whoops! Gave the game away there huh?

CM: Well I’m, well I’m sure that you’re inter… you’re interviewing everybody, yeah Mikey’s extremely excitable, extremely, um Joseph talks about him, talks about him all the time, about the fact that him and Summer couldn’t get along,

By going to Susan on 9 Feb (supposedly even before visiting Fallbrook) Chase begins his idea of manipulating Susan and Mikey to "discover" the disappearance and enter the crime scene. Chase caused Mikey to break into the house and start contaminating the crime scene. I believe Chase planted all kinds of fake ideas with Mikey as well. (restaurant noises).

This is a classic flying monkey. I think Chase knew Mikey would be susceptible to more Summer BS. And he was able to engineer an unsuspecting Mikey into becoming a potential suspect.

* This post contains my wild speculation only

 

[Funky funky]

^^^^brilliant!

 

[Tortoise]

RSBM

i think @Tortoise is correct that he already fell over the brink in late 2009 when his bank account was closed.

What stuck out for me from Forensic dudes evidence is how the move from 65% to 15% slashed Chase's cashflow, even if it didn't change his profitability.

Cash is king, so if you are bad at finances or have expensive addictions, reduced cashflow can be fatal to your liquidity.

He was very sly in the Feb 17th interview by mentioning how he had been forced to step back from the manufacturing (also saying he and not Joey was contracting out the work) but still saying he was on 65% because a drop would have highlighted a financial problem between him and Joey IMO.

TD: And what do you use for an address – your residence?

CM: Yeah, um, yeah my residence because our shop, what we’re doing now is manufacturing through another manufacturer so or I mean another you know stainless steel shop, I job out everything now instead of…

TD: So you’re middle man?

CM: Pretty much I mean I still do hands on, um I go into the shop and I do all the lighting and they just do all the stainless work and the welding and stuff like that.

"I was dying, you know, that’s what gave me a heart attack, actually, it was, because we got really busy last year"

"If Joseph sells a waterfall for $10,000 he pays me $6,500 he keeps $3,500"

 

[citygirl]

I do all the lighting and they just do the stainless and the welding.
Sounds like a big demotion to me.
MOO.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

RSBM

i think @Tortoise is correct that he already fell over the brink in late 2009 when his bank account was closed.

What stuck out for me from Forensic dudes evidence is how the move from 65% to 15% slashed Chase's cashflow, even if it didn't change his profitability.

Cash is king, so if you are bad at finances or have expensive addictions, reduced cashflow can be fatal to your liquidity.

Exactly.

For example 65% of $10,000 is great. However 15% of $10,000 is chump change in comparison.

Imo

 

[Karinna]

Exactly.

For example 65% of $10,000 is great. However 15% of $10,000 is chump change in comparison.

Imo

Why would Merritt be making more profit than the owner of the business, JM?

 

[geevee]

Why would Merritt be making more profit than the owner of the business, JM?

In his mind he was the brains and brawn behind their success.

My memory cells are failing me, did we ever figure out why CM wanted Provencho in front of the jury so badly?

 

[Karinna]

In his mind he was the brains and brawn behind their success.

My memory cells are failing me, did we ever figure out why CM wanted Provencho in front of the jury so badly?

Oh yeah Merritt was big on delusions of granduer, a typical trait of the narcissistic psychopath that he is IMO.
Not really sure what the deal was with the Provecho issue at trial?

 

[mrjitty]

He was very sly in the Feb 17th interview by mentioning how he had been forced to step back from the manufacturing (also saying he and not Joey was contracting out the work) but still saying he was on 65% because a drop would have highlighted a financial problem between him and Joey IMO.

TD: And what do you use for an address – your residence?

CM: Yeah, um, yeah my residence because our shop, what we’re doing now is manufacturing through another manufacturer so or I mean another you know stainless steel shop, I job out everything now instead of…

TD: So you’re middle man?

CM: Pretty much I mean I still do hands on, um I go into the shop and I do all the lighting and they just do all the stainless work and the welding and stuff like that.

"I was dying, you know, that’s what gave me a heart attack, actually, it was, because we got really busy last year"

"If Joseph sells a waterfall for $10,000 he pays me $6,500 he keeps $3,500"

Thanks for bringing this up again. I recall we discussed it before but I forgot about it.

This is a hugely significant lie IMO, and shows the sensitivity of the matter to the accused, given DuGal would not have challenged him on it no matter what he said.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Why would Merritt be making more profit than the owner of the business, JM?

I truly have never understood that either. It seems upside down imo. I dont know one self employed business owner that works it this way. Was there documentation showing this to be true, and for how long Joey did this?

I suppose at one time that had to include CM being solely liable for all cost of material, and supplies.

Joey would have been much better off if he had contracted with another business to supply all of the materials needed for each project.

Counting on CM to be honest, and live up to his responsibility was a huge mistake on his part unfortunately.

It allowed CM to substitute shoddy material that he may have even stolen or got from a scrap metal yard for dirt cheap.

I'm sure Joey didn't stand over CM to see if the material he used was new. Old metal can often be compromised with stress defects which can cause the metal structures built to be weak, and not last very long.

But with Joey's low 35% threshold he was responsible for paying so many things out if it.

It seems so unfair. Especially since we know Joey wound up having to pay for the same material twice. How in the world was CM comfortable being so unfair to Joey who had done so much for him?

He knew he had stiffed Joey once again. He left Joey no choice. The con knew Joey wouldnt stiff anyone out of money owed to them

With CMs 65% he didnt have one single thing to show for any of it, but Joey who only received 35% was able to run EIP successfully, pay bills/taxes...plus save almost 100k, and had just bought a home for his family.

Imo

 

[mrjitty]

Why would Merritt be making more profit than the owner of the business, JM?

Basically by moving all the costs back on to Joey's end, Joey could control costs and eek out more margin from the 50% - or even just protect margins against overuns

Under the 15% deal - Chase is essentially just being paid his share of profit to do his work. As I understand it, there would be no more costs to come out of Chase's 15%

In one way this is better for Chase - he just gets his profit and doesn't have to worry about costs

But on the other hand, now he can't access the 50% cashflow, and make margin out of the costs of the job

And furthermore, if Chase was bad with money, high cashflow can cover a lot of sins if you are actually loss making. e.g. by stiffing suppliers, cheating on costs etc

If Joey could be asked, I am sure this is why he talk control over the costs side - to protect margins

 

[mrjitty]

I truly have never understood that either. It seems upside down imo. I dont know one self employed business owner that works it this way. Was there doumention showing this tone true, and for how long Joey did this?

I suppose at one time that had to include CM being solely liable for all cost of material, and supplies.

This was cleared up by forensic dude.

Because Chase was so bad with money and had zero liquidity, Joey was financing the jobs in terms of cashflow, but out of Chase's end if that makes sense.

So Chase's 65% was a gross amount from which Chase received his fees, but also the costs came out of this.

So when a bill came in for materials from a supplier, Joey paid it, and booked it out of Chase's 65%

In this way, provided the client paid deposit and final payment, a job would zero out on Chase's side in terms of costs and fees.

The 35% that is left was Joey's gross margin from which he had to pay the business expenses like the website, himself, accounting, taxes etc

We will never know for sure, but I think we have enough hints to guess that Joey took control of the production budget and paid Chase a flat 15% profit margin because Chase was mismanaging production and the fabrication budgets

 

[mrjitty]

In his mind he was the brains and brawn behind their success.

My memory cells are failing me, did we ever figure out why CM wanted Provencho in front of the jury so badly?

I think in order to claim he didn't owe the 19K