UK UK - Charlene Downes, 14, Blackpool England, Nov 2003

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Ironside said:
I've finished watching the documentary. The recording of the call between the police and Charlene's mother was most interesting.
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I was struck by Karen trying to say she had to go out when the police said they were coming round. Surely if your child is missing, you'd be waiting by the door for her to come home or for the police to come, not fobbing them off!

What do people think of the final suspect mentioned in the documentary?
 
Yes that's the bit that really bothered me, she didn't seem that concerned at all. I don't believe she called before this even though she claims she did.

I must reread the book she wrote to see how this new 999 call timeline fits in.

There are so many suspects now it's hard to tell what's happened, no wonder the police made a mess of the case.
 
I completely agree. My own personal theory is that the answer to what happened to Charlene lies closer to home (although I do think she was a victim of localised grooming as well) but I don't think we'll ever know for sure. The poor girl was failed by everyone around her.
 
I still can't believe transcripts were made of such terrible recordings. I remember being outraged when I first heard of this case, and I thought that the original two suspects got away with murder. Now I understand why they didn't go to prison. What does everyone think about the cd that was allegedly locked up in the police station--the one in which DC's source denies ever saying that the two original suspects had anything to do with the murder?
 
I didn’t find her mother saying she needed to go out strange. I took it to mean she needed to go out and look for her. Which would be the natural reaction to a missing child.

Now I’m not defending her family but at the end of the day non of us know the truth. The news and editors of the documentary will have 100% put whatever slant they wanted to portray and Karen’s book will also be slanted towards her version of events. I’d imagine the truth is somewhere in the middle.

The thing I notice most about this case is that everyone is so busy trying to point the finger of blame at someone else that the important thing, finding what’s happened to Charleen, seems to be nowhere near the top of anyone’s lists.

The police are too busy trying to cover their own arses and hide their own monumental mess ups (the tapes etc), social services are too busy pointing the finger at the family, when the fact is of it was as bad as they’re implying why weren’t all the children removed? And the family are either being cagey or pointing the finger at the police/the suspects/the social services, when they failed to protect their children on so many occasions social services were required to step in.

Nobody seems to actually be focused on Charleen.

It seems even in death nobody cares enough about this poor child to actually place the focus squarely on her for once.
 
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I do think social services get an unfair hearing in lots of these cases. Taking kids off people is absolutely last case scenario and there's mountains of red tape and procedure to go through, it's not as simple as going they might be at risk so get them out of that house.

Personally I think social services needs an overhaul country wide in the UK as at the moment they find themselves in a can't win either way scenario in most cases and it prevents them from acting, even in cases where they really should be doing something.

I go Blackpool once a year for a music festival and it's an incredibly seedy place off the main strip. I don't feel overly safe walking round there in the early hours as an adult so I dread to think what types Charlene was mixing with when she was out all hours. Any suspect list must be extensive.
 
what i would like to know is how a socail services report like that got into the hands of a nationel newspaper i thought such reports were confidentail

sorry if thata hard tounderstand my spellchecks playing up
 
can we besure she is dead and dident just start a new life
Farley said:
I didn’t find her mother saying she needed to go out strange. I took it to mean she needed to go out and look for her. Which would be the natural reaction to a missing child.

Now I’m not defending her family but at the end of the day non of us know the truth. The news and editors of the documentary will have 100% put whatever slant they wanted to portray and Karen’s book will also be slanted towards her version of events. I’d imagine the truth is somewhere in the middle.

The thing I notice most about this case is that everyone is so busy trying to point the finger of blame at someone else that the important thing, finding what’s happened to Charleen, seems to be nowhere near the top of anyone’s lists.

The police are too busy trying to cover their own arses and hide their own monumental mess ups (the tapes etc), social services are too busy pointing the finger at the family, when the fact is of it was as bad as they’re implying why weren’t all the children removed? And the family are either being cagey or pointing the finger at the police/the suspects/the social services, when they failed to protect their children on so many occasions social services were required to step in.

Nobody seems to actually be focused on Charleen.

It seems even in death nobody cares enough about this poor child to actually place the focus squarely on her for once.
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jonmarbles said:
can we besure she is dead and dident just start a new life
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No of course we can’t be 100% sure of anything but it seems unlikely.

14 year olds can’t just start a new life. What would she have done for money? Where would she have stayed? She would have needed help and given the length of time that has passed why would adult Charlene not just send a letter or call and say I’m alive stop looking? Also to not to that she’d have to have complete confidence in the people that helped her, she’d have to be 100% confident that they wouldn’t have come forward at any point. Is it impossible? Of course not. Is it likely? Sadly I don’t feel it is.
 
I've only just finished the Channel 5 documentary and it raised a few points although not a whole lot of anything new. It certainly didn't need to be 3 hours (or approx 2 hrs 15 mins without adverts) long and felt a bit dragged out at times.

Sister - I think she knows more than she's letting on, that was the impression I got from this documentary. It was just the way she's seemingly quite open about it all and then clams up as soon as she's asked anything difficult.

Police - oh dear. This is a classic case of a force desperate for results and focusing on one suspect so much and being blinkered that it's detrimental to the case. That transcript is abysmal and is a clear example of why you should be using professionals for that job as the expert points out in the documentary.

MR & IA - There's no doubt in my mind that these are both dangerous people who should not be allowed near children. The video in MR's garden with his hands all over the teenage girl made my skin crawl. I was gob smacked that they let MR be a foster carer, I know they're desperate for people to do it but I would have thought a single man with no track record of raising children of their own would be a big no no when approving people.

Parents - Neither seem the brightest spark but the dad keep bringing paedophiles into contact with his daughters was unbelievable. As we often see in these cases it seems nowhere was more dangerous for this poor lass than her own home.

End of the Documentary - The fact that there's a known sex offender living above the alleyway at the time has to ring alarm bells but it's been found out way too late due to police incompetence. They put all their focus on MR & IA and because of it they've missed an obvious potential suspect. Any evidence of possible involvement will be long gone over a decade later. I'm not one to be easily upset but the poor lass at the end explaining how she lost her virginity in that alley to make her mum £250 and that she felt proud at the time to earn it broke my heart.

My thoughts on this case after multiple TV programmes and reading up on everything is that the town did have a problem with these takeaway owners grooming young girls and I do believe they got them to perform sexual acts for money/food and drink. I believe MR & IA display behaviour that means they're not safe to be around children but I don't believe they killed Charlene.

I do believe Charlene was part of the group who were groomed by these takeaway owners but she was in fact killed by one of the many paedophiles who had access to her at home or the new suspect who lived above the alley. Ultimately though bar a confession I don't think we'll ever get the answers as Charlene's situation means there's a long list of potential suspects and the police are only actively pursuing these over a decade later.
 
Robert Ewing was convicted of Paige Chiver's murder in 2015. He was a member of the BNP & EDL & lived in Bispham, a small town a couple of miles from Blackpool. Could he be the Bob mentioned as being seen in Charlene's home? Ewing evaded justice for 8 years, successfully disposing of Paige's body, this makes me think she wasn't his first victim.
The family's evasiveness raises suspicion, known sex offenders & criminals were frequent visitors to the house & they were aware of Charlene & her sister selling themselves yet did nothing to stop it. Charlene visited a sexual health clinic many times at 14! Surely this should have sent alarm bells ringing. The children were on the at risk register in the midlands & the family fled to Blackpool to avoid them being taken into care. It says a lot about them when a man like Tommy Robinson, former EDL leader has washed his hands of them!
The takeaway owners are bad men but were convenient bogeymen to stitch up to make it look like something was being done. I lived near the takeaway & CSI literally tore it apart & found nothing.
A sad case were a vulnerable girl was let down badly
 
sportstergirl said:
Robert Ewing was convicted of Paige Chiver's murder in 2015. He was a member of the BNP & EDL & lived in Bispham, a small town a couple of miles from Blackpool. Could he be the Bob mentioned as being seen in Charlene's home? Ewing evaded justice for 8 years, successfully disposing of Paige's body, this makes me think she wasn't his first victim.
The family's evasiveness raises suspicion, known sex offenders & criminals were frequent visitors to the house & they were aware of Charlene & her sister selling themselves yet did nothing to stop it. Charlene visited a sexual health clinic many times at 14! Surely this should have sent alarm bells ringing. The children were on the at risk register in the midlands & the family fled to Blackpool to avoid them being taken into care. It says a lot about them when a man like Tommy Robinson, former EDL leader has washed his hands of them!
The takeaway owners are bad men but were convenient bogeymen to stitch up to make it look like something was being done. I lived near the takeaway & CSI literally tore it apart & found nothing.
A sad case were a vulnerable girl was let down badly
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Is this who the reporter was referring to at the end of the part 3?

I found it a bit odd, 3 hours of sifting through the details and in the last minute or two he says who he suspects without any previous mention, or much of an explanation.
 
Legally Bland said:
Is this who the reporter was referring to at the end of the part 3?

I found it a bit odd, 3 hours of sifting through the details and in the last minute or two he says who he suspects without any previous mention, or much of an explanation.
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Nigel Lloyd is who they're talking about on the programme. I'm presuming it's fine to state the name since the programme even shows you a photo of him and he's been named in the press. For fairness though it is worth mentioning that the police have already had him for questioning in regards to this in 2017 and didn't charge him.
 
SJ16321 said:
Nigel Lloyd is who they're talking about on the programme. I'm presuming it's fine to state the name since the programme even shows you a photo of him and he's been named in the press. For fairness though it is worth mentioning that the police have already had him for questioning in regards to this in 2017 and didn't charge him.
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I need to re-watch episode 3, I'm sure there was a different name thrown out right at the end with hardly any details..
 
sportstergirl said:
Robert Ewing was convicted of Paige Chiver's murder in 2015. He was a member of the BNP & EDL & lived in Bispham, a small town a couple of miles from Blackpool. Could he be the Bob mentioned as being seen in Charlene's home? Ewing evaded justice for 8 years, successfully disposing of Paige's body, this makes me think she wasn't his first victim.
The family's evasiveness raises suspicion, known sex offenders & criminals were frequent visitors to the house & they were aware of Charlene & her sister selling themselves yet did nothing to stop it. Charlene visited a sexual health clinic many times at 14! Surely this should have sent alarm bells ringing. The children were on the at risk register in the midlands & the family fled to Blackpool to avoid them being taken into care. It says a lot about them when a man like Tommy Robinson, former EDL leader has washed his hands of them!
The takeaway owners are bad men but were convenient bogeymen to stitch up to make it look like something was being done. I lived near the takeaway & CSI literally tore it apart & found nothing.
A sad case were a vulnerable girl was let down badly
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I hadn't even thought about the "Bob" possibly being Robert Ewing, it definitely wouldn't surprise me. The problem with the UK is a lot of our systems are area based rather than country wide and we need to get a lot better at agencies sharing information.

You should not be able to stop your kids going into care just by moving house, that's absolutely ludicrous and should never happen. The at risk register needs to be national and not just applying to one particular locality.

The lack of information sharing reminds me of the Soham murders, Huntley only got that job because forces didn't share information properly. He'd never have got that job in the first place if the local police had access to his full details.

It also shows how hypocritical the EDL mob are as well. They're all guns blazing when they think they can put murders and child abuse on Muslims but when it's one of their own they go quiet!
 
Legally Bland said:
I need to re-watch episode 3, I'm sure there was a different name thrown out right at the end with hardly any details..
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I've just watched the end again as it hasn't been deleted off planner yet so it was easy to access. It's Lloyd who they mention at the end and Lloyd who they say lived above the alley at the time. If it was him I dread to think how often Charlene must have been down that alley doing god knows what for him to take notice of her.
 
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