Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #107

[tresir2012]

This is what was said in July '17 about what BG was wearing on his head when the OBG sketch was released. (From the media thread)


A. As you can see, the original picture below it appears that he's got a hat on and it's got the flaps down
and kind of down over the face. We want to make sure you focus on the picture. We want to make sure the face is what you are looking at and not worry about the hat even though the hat does is not quite the same as in the picture. We want the facial features, is what we want you to look at.

 

[ZZbball22]

Welcome to WS. No worries, everyone's opinions are encouraged and it is a discussion forum. LE originally stated he was wearing a hoodie and a fanny pack IIRC.

Is this based on eyewitness accounts? Or was it gleaned from the video?

I can buy the fact he was wearing a hoodie or reported to be. If it was from the video, how can they be sure? Unless there are other videos they have. I hate to be that guy but there is always the possibility of LE being incorrect. Although I give them credit and benefit of doubt, it is a possibility. Also it doesn't necessarily mean he has his hood on. I should have pointed out in my original post that I believe I can see a hood or perhaps scarf behind his head as if it was down.

Imo you can see his ear on the left side of his head in the video, which would possibly indicate that his head was uncovered and what we are seeing is what I pointed out in that screenshot.

I can definately see that "brown" cloth as a fanny pack.

 

[ZZbball22]

All I'm presenting is an alternate analysis from the video based on what I see. And try to point to and communicate it to the best of my ability. The reason being that if his head is uncovered, then we have hair color, style and possibly Male pattern baldness. Not to mention possible facial hair. I understand LE has put a lot of effort into this case, I'm just basing these observations on what I see in the video. It would be a shame if they had some critical detail wrong or missed a small piece of evidence in that clip and we were looking for a ghost. I'm not saying I have all the answers just another set of eyes.

 

[FinePrint]

I know there have been a lot of posts about maps, what route BG and the girls took and why, etc. Not being from the area and just looking at a map it's really hard to tell why someone did what they did, the actual distance, etc. So I was playing around on Google Maps and the Delphi County Property Map this afternoon and wanted to share my thoughts. All of this is IMO.

If BG parked in the former CPS lot, why there instead of one of the trail parking lots? He was likely there to commit a crime so he certainly wouldn't want to park in one of the trail lots since they are very small and any vehicle would likely be noticed/remembered.

Why the CPS lot instead of the Delphi Cemetery? Some reports have mentioned that there was a vehicle parked at the Cemetery and that LE made contact with the owner(s) of the vehicle immediately after the girls' bodies were found so the vehicle could be removed from the Cemetery lot. I'm not sure if the vehicle had broken down or why it was parked there, but it seemed LE didn't feel it had anything to do with the crime. So if BG thought about parking at the Cemetery he likely changed his mind because this vehicle was there and he would have been afraid of being noticed.

Why park at the CPS lot (in relation to the bridge/trail)? The car may not have been noticed here and, even if someone did notice it, they would have been more likely to assume it was someone checking out the building or related to one of the nearby businesses.

Why park at the CPS lot (in relation to "get around quickly")? The CPS Building is easily accessible to the Hoosier Heartland Highway (Route 25) - 0.7 miles (2 minutes).

A WLFI News report said the following information was from ISP Sgt. Kim Riley - "The importance of the car also ties into why police now believe the killer is local. Riley said after reviewing many tips, investigators determined he was able to get around quickly on the day the girls were killed, and seemed to know the area."

I think being able to "get around quickly" was important to BG so he could try to maintain an alibi (and to not get caught).

Walking Distances (approximate) -
CPS Building to 1st Trail Lot (not where the girls were dropped off) - 976 ft (0.18 mi)
1st Trail Lot to Monon High Bridge (far side) - 3554 ft (0.67 mi)
Monon High Bridge (far side) to Crime Scene - 646 ft (0.12 mi)
Crime Scene to CPS Building (path through woods, NOT direct path) - 5014 (0.95 mi)

End of the bridge to Crime Scene to CPS Bldg - 1.07 miles
Total "round trip" - 1.92 miles


I have never been 100% convinced whether BG intended to kill the girls in the bridge area or if he intended to abduct them in order to have more time with them before he killed them. The distance from the end of the bridge to the approximate Crime Scene and back to the CPS Building (walking through the woods in order to remain hidden) is about 1.07 miles - not really that much of a distance if you are cocky and think you are in control of two young girls (with or without a weapon). If he did intend to abduct them, he may have been scared and quickly killed them if he may have heard Libby's phone ring and/or heard DG's voice calling for the girls.

"Why park at the CPS lot (in relation to "get around quickly")? The CPS Building is easily accessible to the Hoosier Heartland Highway (Route 25) - 0.7 miles (2 minutes)."

Here is the now torn down CPS building (where the excavator is seen). Here you can see that there is only a small ditch between that parking lot and the Hoosier Heartland HWY. He could have easily and immediately gotten onto the HWY. Didn't even need to take Rt 25 to access the HWY.

 

[FinePrint]

"Why park at the CPS lot (in relation to "get around quickly")? The CPS Building is easily accessible to the Hoosier Heartland Highway (Route 25) - 0.7 miles (2 minutes)."

Here is the now torn down CPS building (where is the excavator is seen). Here you can see that there is only a small ditch between that parking lot and the Hoosier Heartland HWY. He could have easily and immediately gotten onto the HWY. Didn't even need to take Rt 25 to access the HWY.
View attachment 190309

Replying to my post to show a picture of the CPS building and Hoosier HWY before building was taken down, very easy access to the HWY through the grass:

 

[TL4S]

Except, we have LE saying they crossed the creek. moo

Maybe after their discussion at the end of the bridge about going ahead on the trail and there being nowhere to go, they did decided to go back to the road or the trail through the woods. If BG had said or done something to make them uncomfortable enough that they didn't want to go back across the bridge, they had to go a different route, and any route back involves crossing the creek.

So instead of crossing by force, or fleeing, they did it on purpose to get back. BG could have either followed them, or even recrossed the bridge himself and they met up in the woods.

The "down the hill" doesn't have to be the hill at the end of the bridge. It could be the hill behind the cemetery or by the trail.

Just trying to think of a reason why the videos aren't accurate, but still having the girls cross the creek.

 

[tresir2012]

Is this based on eyewitness accounts? Or was it gleaned from the video?

I can buy the fact he was wearing a hoodie or reported to be. If it was from the video, how can they be sure? Unless there are other videos they have. I hate to be that guy but there is always the possibility of LE being incorrect. Although I give them credit and benefit of doubt, it is a possibility. Also it doesn't necessarily mean he has his hood on. I should have pointed out in my original post that I believe I can see a hood or perhaps scarf behind his head as if it was down.

Imo you can see his ear on the left side of his head in the video, which would possibly indicate that his head was uncovered and what we are seeing is what I pointed out in that screenshot.

I can definately see that "brown" cloth as a fanny pack.

They said he is wearing a hoodie and a fanny pack but did not say if hoodie was up or down. Later (what I posted a couple of posts back from the media thread) they talked about the hat with flaps. LE are saying this but are not saying whether it is from witnesses or their interpretation of the video. It is probably a mixture of the two where they are getting the info. Obviously this has been gone over in the image thread a lot also. Now we only have the NBG sketch with only hair on his head. LE did say disregard the hat so I think he may have only had it on for a disguise. Or he was cold. IMO

 

[Jethro4WS]

Maybe after their discussion at the end of the bridge about going ahead on the trail and there being nowhere to go, they did decided to go back to the road or the trail through the woods. If BG had said or done something to make them uncomfortable enough that they didn't want to go back across the bridge, they had to go a different route, and any route back involves crossing the creek.

So instead of crossing by force, or fleeing, they did it on purpose to get back. BG could have either followed them, or even recrossed the bridge himself and they met up in the woods.

The "down the hill" doesn't have to be the hill at the end of the bridge. It could be the hill behind the cemetery or by the trail.

Just trying to think of a reason why the videos aren't accurate, but still having the girls cross the creek.

BBM. What I wonder in such a scenario is why would the consideration be that the girls would want to get back across the creek? Abby knew that her house was just down the road that goes right under the bridge - about 3/4 of a mile. Why wouldn't the consideration be to head to Abby's house?

 

[TL4S]

BBM. What I wonder in such a scenario is why would the consideration be that the girls would want to get back across the creek? Abby knew that her house was just down the road that goes right under the bridge - about 3/4 of a mile. Why wouldn't the consideration be to head to Abby's house?

I know, that's my question with it, too. Do we know if anyone was home?

I'd also wonder why they didn't call someone. I guess in my mind, in this scenario, I picture them feeling silly for being scared, but also just wanting to get to their ride home.

 

[Cutiekitty]

One other thing they have said is the murders happened within minutes of the video so we have theorised 59 minutes from 2.30p.m. which is not long enough for them to have been abducted and then brought back to the cemetery side of the creek IMO. So if the reenactments are wrong, which show the girls crossing the creek AFAIK, then were they killed or knocked out on the south side then taken across the creek to be hidden?

Did they say within minutes of the video or minutes of the recording? I’m going to go back and check that.

 

[tresir2012]

Did they say within minutes of the video or minutes of the recording? I’m going to go back and check that.

Not sure - they probably said within minutes of the recording which could mean either video or audio. Will assume they mean video because I have always believed the killing was caught on audio and that is what shocked LE so much in this case. MOO

 

[tresir2012]

BBM. What I wonder in such a scenario is why would the consideration be that the girls would want to get back across the creek? Abby knew that her house was just down the road that goes right under the bridge - about 3/4 of a mile. Why wouldn't the consideration be to head to Abby's house?

They may well have tried to, we don't know, he may have caught them under the bridge on that road trying that very thing. I don't think they would have chosen to go the other way towards the creek voluntarily. Whichever way they went was woodland AFAICS.

 

[SeattleStew]

Let today be the day.

Please bear with me, a couple of thoughts. TIA.

To be clear, Abby and Libby are victims, not victim blaming in any way shape or form:

1. Do you think the girls would have found another way to get to the trail that day if KG hadn't offered the ride? i.e. Could they have walked or taken the bus?

2. It has been said by family that the girls didn't want to wear coats or sweatshirts (paraphrasing) to the trail that day, but family insisted, so Abby borrowed one to wear. It appears that Libby was wearing a jacket in the BG video she takes (there is a brief glimpse of it in one of the frames)

I am wondering if the girls did plan to meet someone at the park? Perhaps they had been "catfished" online by someone who said they were younger than they really are, and BG set up the whole thing from start to "finish".

The girls seeming persistence in going to the trail that day, for really what was supposed to be a not very long time, iirc dropped off around 1:30 and picked up less than two hours later by Libby's Dad, makes me wonder if they hadn't planned to meet someone on the trail, rather than hiking or walking a larger part of the trail system, hope that makes sense?

When I was younger, even in my 20's, but especially in my teens, I remember not wanting to put a coat or jacket on, as to "not ruin my outfit" or my "look" for the occasion or event.

Again, not victim blaming in any way! These girls were completely victimized by this monster.

Thoughts?

 

[flashy09]

Sorry to interrupt the discussion with some random thoughts!

I mentioned in another posting how basically none of my friends know about this case even though I am not too far from Indiana.

The new sketch shows someone quite young, 18-30ish. That age range really does not watch much television or read newspapers. However, I know lots of people that watched Ted Bundy and Making a Murderer on Netflix. I think a Netflix documentary on this case would be really helpful in reaching a large, pertinent audience! That and a huge SM push where the video and audio is shared publicly rather than the closed groups of people already interested.

Social media is truly where many young people get their news and it's very common to only have Netflix and not cable, especially in college. This case needs to reach more people - it is mind boggling that with audio, video and such an awful shocking crime this case has not been solved!

I think focusing on his contemporaries is important with the new age range. His family may not turn him in due to denial or loyalty. Maybe he doesn't have much family and what he does have are drug addicts that pay no attention to the real world. Parents could be dead, etc. But if he is a young man, he would have gone to school recently, probably needs to work so has coworkers, rents a house possibly with roommates. Schoolmates, roommates, co workers - this is the younger group that needs to be reached and they are not watching HLN at 1pm or GMA at 8am. They are on SM and Netflix.

Just my morning thoughts lol.

 

[tresir2012]

Let today be the day.

Please bear with me, a couple of thoughts. TIA.

To be clear, Abby and Libby are victims, not victim blaming in any way shape or form:

1. Do you think the girls would have found another way to get to the trail that day if KG hadn't offered the ride? i.e. Could they have walked or taken the bus?

2. It has been said by family that the girls didn't want to wear coats or sweatshirts (paraphrasing) to the trail that day, but family insisted, so Abby borrowed one to wear. It appears that Libby was wearing a jacket in the BG video she takes (there is a brief glimpse of it in one of the frames)

I am wondering if the girls did plan to meet someone at the park? Perhaps they had been "catfished" online by someone who said they were younger than they really are, and BG set up the whole thing from start to "finish".

The girls seeming persistence in going to the trail that day, for really what was supposed to be a not very long time, iirc dropped off around 1:30 and picked up less than two hours later by Libby's Dad, makes me wonder if they hadn't planned to meet someone on the trail, rather than hiking or walking a larger part of the trail system, hope that makes sense?

When I was younger, even in my 20's, but especially in my teens, I remember not wanting to put a coat or jacket on, as to "not ruin my outfit" or my "look" for the occasion or event.

Again, not victim blaming in any way! These girls were completely victimized by this monster.

Thoughts?

I certainly think catfish or meeting someone was a possibility. Also, someone who knew of the plans told someone else, who told someone else.....etc.

Having said that, I also believe it could be random- someone from one of the groups in the park that day went off on their own and saw an opportunity, or a completely lone perp wandering around knowing young kids were off school and would be there.

Also, the families seem to be large and extended, so someone on the very periphery could also have got to know perhaps through just word of mouth.

I think this is part of the problem that LE have. They were recently asked if all family members had been cleared and did not answer in the complete positive IIRC.
MOO

 

[allboys]

Replying to my post to show a picture of the CPS building and Hoosier HWY before building was taken down, very easy access to the HWY through the grass:
View attachment 190310

Thanks for posting this pic. I had asked a while back if this would be possible, but I couldn’t quite make out how big/small the ditch was from the pic I had available.

I had also speculated that if he had pulled directly onto the highway through the grass, this would be worthy of someone “feeling that something should be reported.”

I imagine if BG went this route, the positive for him would be avoiding possible cameras by avoiding taking the longer way to Hoosier HWY. The negative would be drawing attention to himself driving through the grass directly onto the Hoosier HWY. MOO

 

[ZoriahNZ]

Yes, Holeman. My understanding, he believes they crossed the creek before being killed. I'm lost as to what is "wrong". Still scratching my head over that one. moo

For anyone interested, here's the interview. Start about the 10:00 mark.

Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence

Thanks for re-posting this. I hadn't watched the full 27 min interview at the bottom. Sgt. Holeman's interview was very informative. Bearing in mind that it was done in Aug 2017 and that the sketch behind him is now sort of discarded, it's interesting to revisit some of the facts that LE were willing to speak about at that time.

Sgt. Holeman does speak about the girls crossing the creek, which to me indicates that LE believe they did physically cross it on their own steam before they ended up at the crime scene.

 

[allboys]

I know, that's my question with it, too. Do we know if anyone was home?

I'd also wonder why they didn't call someone. I guess in my mind, in this scenario, I picture them feeling silly for being scared, but also just wanting to get to their ride home.

I’ve always felt the fact that they didn’t call someone meant that things went from feeling something was “possibly off” with BG to a “dangerous situation” in a heartbeat’s time.

 

[FinePrint]

Thanks for posting this pic. I had asked a while back if this would be possible, but I couldn’t quite make out how big/small the ditch was from the pic I had available.

I had also speculated that if he had pulled directly onto the highway through the grass, this would be worthy of someone “feeling that something should be reported.”

I imagine if BG went this route, the positive for him would be avoiding possible cameras by avoiding taking the longer way to Hoosier HWY. The negative would be drawing attention to himself driving through the grass directly onto the Hoosier HWY. MOO

Yes and to add to your very good thoughts... Because this is a HWY we are talking about here I would have to assume that Indiana State Police would have been on this highway throughout the day. This parking lot is very visible from this highway. I would have to think if he was indeed parked there a dash cam would have recorded the image of his vehicle.

 

[TL4S]

I’ve always felt the fact that they didn’t call someone meant that things went from feeling something was “possibly off” with BG to a “dangerous situation” in a heartbeat’s time.

Yes. The more I think about it, LE has said the girls crossed the creek. They haven't actually stated that BG did, or asked people to report seeing somebody with wet clothing. I've seen somewhere that Libby's shoe was not on her. Is that true?

So let's say Abby's family wasn't home, and she didn't have a key. If the girls were scared at all, maybe they didn't want to go to a rural home alone. They knew the trail was close, and Libby's family member would be there, so they headed that direction.

Maybe where they crossed the creek wasn't that deep. Maybe they took their shoes off because BG hadn't followed them. They crossed, but BG got there from the north side. He'd recrossed the bridge. Maybe he could even see them from the bridge and was able to keep track where they were. IDK

Honestly, this makes more sense to me than BG forcing them and crossing the creek himself.