CA - Off Duty Police Officer shoots man and parents after altercation in Costco, Corona, June 2019

[MsFacetious]

I hope the shooting itself is also caught on video.
I want to know about the time lapse and physical distance.

Was Kenneth standing over the shooter?
Was Kenneth walking away?
Were Kenneth's parents pulling him away?

Was it 30 seconds after Kenneth bumped the shooter?
Was it 2 minutes after?
Was it 5 minutes after?

Who was shot first?
Was it close range or long range?
Did he shoot mom and dad once?
Did he empty the clip into Kenneth?
Is that why he is dead?

I want to know these things. Because something (aside from no arrest) stinks horribly here. This just seems like a rage thing. Similar to a road rage incident. If you are just "defending" yourself you use the least force needed. Especially in a crowded Costco. But if you are blinded by rage..... that's another story.

 

[mickey2942]

I hope the shooting itself is also caught on video.
I want to know about the time lapse and physical distance.

Was Kenneth standing over the shooter?
Was Kenneth walking away?
Were Kenneth's parents pulling him away?

Was it 30 seconds after Kenneth bumped the shooter?
Was it 2 minutes after?
Was it 5 minutes after?

Who was shot first?
Was it close range or long range?
Did he shoot mom and dad once?
Did he empty the clip into Kenneth?
Is that why he is dead?

I want to know these things. Because something (aside from no arrest) stinks horribly here. This just seems like a rage thing. Similar to a road rage incident. If you are just "defending" yourself you use the least force needed. Especially in a crowded Costco. But if you are blinded by rage..... that's another story.

This. Officers are used to being in a position of authority, and deference. They expect to be immediately obeyed, and given respect. Due to the uniform. This officer was not wearing a uniform, but he still expected the same respect, hence his over reaction to being knocked over.

I really think it is due to the issue of who they hire and how they train the officers.

 

[foleybrau]

This. Officers are used to being in a position of authority, and deference. They expect to be immediately obeyed, and given respect. Due to the uniform. This officer was not wearing a uniform, but he still expected the same respect, hence his over reaction to being knocked over.

I really think it is due to the issue of who they hire and how they train the officers.

Sounds like speculation to me.

This. Officers are used to being in a position of authority, and deference. They expect to be immediately obeyed, and given respect. Due to the uniform. This officer was not wearing a uniform, but he still expected the same respect, hence his over reaction to being knocked over.

I really think it is due to the issue of who they hire and how they train the officers.

Or why is he allowed to carry a weapon off duty?

 

[gitana1]

I hope the shooting itself is also caught on video.
I want to know about the time lapse and physical distance.

Was Kenneth standing over the shooter?
Was Kenneth walking away?
Were Kenneth's parents pulling him away?

Was it 30 seconds after Kenneth bumped the shooter?
Was it 2 minutes after?
Was it 5 minutes after?

Who was shot first?
Was it close range or long range?
Did he shoot mom and dad once?
Did he empty the clip into Kenneth?
Is that why he is dead?

I want to know these things. Because something (aside from no arrest) stinks horribly here. This just seems like a rage thing. Similar to a road rage incident. If you are just "defending" yourself you use the least force needed. Especially in a crowded Costco. But if you are blinded by rage..... that's another story.

Well the witness who spoke to the media said the officer stood up, pulled out his gun and began shooting. So I don't think Kenneth was standing over him.

It was either rage, IMO, or panic. Or both.

 

[apricotpeach]

Or why is he allowed to carry a weapon off duty?

LAPD allows their officers to carry their service weapons while off-duty. Costco (at least in CA) also allows off-duty officers to carry weapons. For me, it's not a question about whether an off-duty cop should be able to carry a weapon in theory. In theory, off-duty officers could help thwart or stop a crime being committed.

But it does seem to vary widely depending on the place of business. For example, (in 2008, at least), Disneyland did not allow off-duty cops to carry weapons but Knott's Berry Farm did allow it (and they allowed retired officers to carry guns too).

 

[MsFacetious]

Well the witness who spoke to the media said the officer stood up, pulled out his gun and began shooting. So I don't think Kenneth was standing over him.

It was either rage, IMO, or panic. Or both.

Either one shows that he should not be carrying a loaded gun.

 

[Jeremy Bentham]

I hope the shooting itself is also caught on video.
I want to know about the time lapse and physical distance.

Was Kenneth standing over the shooter?
Was Kenneth walking away?
Were Kenneth's parents pulling him away?

The sequence of events does not make sense even if I was to go solely by the police statement. The statement says the shooter was attacked from behind, fell down with his 1-1/2 year old, briefly lost consciousness, got up and fired at the attacker.

If the shooter was attacked from behind, how does he even know who the attacker is? I am not a doctor but after "briefly" losing consciousness, how is one alert enough to positively identify the attacker and execute them?

Given the long history of such incidents, I suspect the shooter's defense will be a combination of - afraid for his life, afraid for life of his child, attacker reaching for the shooter's gun, attacker lunging at him and PTSD. As another poster implied earlier, if the shooter was a gangbanger he would have long been in jail and everyone would be cheering that we removed a dangerous element from society.

 

[PaperDoll]

This is my 2 cents on the OD Officer; From one of the witnesses they said that is sounded like the officer was hit pretty hard, or fell pretty hard, can't remember which. I can see how he would be a bit confused because it came on suddenly. I know if I was hit from behind and fell I would be a bit dazed and maybe angry. This officer may have still been dazed when he fired those shots, after all why would someone push another to the ground? I'm not saying this officer was in the right to fire his weapon, especially 6 or more shots, but in today's world where shootings are becoming more "common" in public places, I can see he may have panicked. Like most of us here, it would be nice to see the video, if it ever comes out.

 

[SoCalDavidS]

but in today's world where shootings are becoming more "common" in public places, I can see he may have panicked. Like most of us here, it would be nice to see the video, if it ever comes out.

Except there had been No shots fired, and No sign of a weapon, so there is no comparison to a "common" shooting incident.

Based on what I've read elsewhere, the consensus among those following this case, is that if the video showed any evidence that the shooting was justified, it would have been released already, in an effort to exonerate the off-duty <modsnipped name calling>. Since it hasn't been, people are speculating that authorities are trying to analyze it in intricate detail with the goal of justifying the killer's actions.

My opinion is that if this had been any regular citizen, the video would have been released by now. Of course, if it was a regular citizen, there likely would have been a drug test and possible arrest.

 

[craftybatchy]

If we accept that the Officer was pushed / attacked from behind with such force that he (the Officer) lost consciousness while holding his 18 month old child, it’s reasonable to consider that the child may have suffered some injuries upon meeting the floor. I haven’t seen anything in the media which speaks to that.

 

[craftybatchy]

Thank you for letting me know! I had no idea... :/

You’re welcome.

I should disclose that I am the parent of a teenage son who is severely autistic (as in worst case scenario, dateline special kind of autism), low functioning, non-verbal, totally dependant in all activities of daily living. Puberty hit us like a MACK truck over the last year, dramatically increasing the frequency and severity of violence, aggression, and self harm. We have fairly frequent police contact at home and in the community. I am so grateful that these encounters, despite being triggered by critical incidents, have all ended safely.

I can totally see how, in the wrong circumstances, my son’s behaviours could trigger a catastrophic response from a civilian . BUT, a police officer is trained to think critically under pressure and respond rather than react. Something is missing here , some piece of the story which has many parents of the severe autism community very concerned.

 

[PaperDoll]

If we accept that the Officer was pushed / attacked from behind with such force that he (the Officer) lost consciousness while holding his 18 month old child, it’s reasonable to consider that the child may have suffered some injuries upon meeting the floor. I haven’t seen anything in the media which speaks to that.

From my understanding the child wasn't harmed.

 

[PrairieWind]

My fear is that the video doesn't show very much and isn't all that helpful. Although you'd think they would just release it if that is the case. I have been trying to remain neutral on this until we knew more.

 

[Jessthinkin]

My fear is that the video doesn't show very much and isn't all that helpful. Although you'd think they would just release it if that is the case. I have been trying to remain neutral on this until we knew more.

I'm hoping that the video and police report will be released to the public, independent of the DA's decision to press charges or not. Do you know if that's something we can reasonably expect?

 

[SoCalDavidS]

My fear is that the video doesn't show very much and isn't all that helpful. Although you'd think they would just release it if that is the case. I have been trying to remain neutral on this until we knew more.

I keep coming back to my main question, which is why is the shooter being given so much benefit of the doubt? All this talk about being slapped, pushed, knocked to the ground, but NOTHING that I have seen to indicate that his "life was in danger." Where the hell is the equivalence of force in the response of pulling out a gun and starting to shoot everything in his immediate vicinity?

More excellent proof that we are NOT All Equal Under The Law. Of course, one only needs to look at our current government for reminders of that every single day.

Let's simply put aside the fact the shooter was an off-duty cop. Not so hard to do, right? His occupation should have no bearing since he was not working. Again, EQUAL Under The Law to Joe Schmo Average Citizen. Would this story fly then? If Joe Schmo gets knocked down at a Costco, is a fair response to pull out a weapon and start firing at someone who is unarmed? Would a Prosecutor buy the "fear for my life" excuse then? I doubt it. Perhaps the defense could argue that it was not premeditated, since the firing was unplanned, and the result of an altercation. There would certainly be much more sympathy for the victim, due to his disability, and the shooter would be viewed as a hothead who just got angered, and decided to pull out a gun and get "revenge" on his attacker.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

I keep coming back to my main question, which is why is the shooter being given so much benefit of the doubt? All this talk about being slapped, pushed, knocked to the ground, but NOTHING that I have seen to indicate that his "life was in danger." Where the hell is the equivalence of force in the response of pulling out a gun and starting to shoot everything in his immediate vicinity?

More excellent proof that we are NOT All Equal Under The Law. Of course, one only needs to look at our current government for reminders of that every single day.

Let's simply put aside the fact the shooter was an off-duty cop. Not so hard to do, right? His occupation should have no bearing since he was not working. Again, EQUAL Under The Law to Joe Schmo Average Citizen. Would this story fly then? If Joe Schmo gets knocked down at a Costco, is a fair response to pull out a weapon and start firing at someone who is unarmed? Would a Prosecutor buy the "fear for my life" excuse then? I doubt it. Perhaps the defense could argue that it was not premeditated, since the firing was unplanned, and the result of an altercation. There would certainly be much more sympathy for the victim, due to his disability, and the shooter would be viewed as a hothead who just got angered, and decided to pull out a gun and get "revenge" on his attacker.

A witness said that the off-duty officer appeared to be having a heart attack. I think it was more than a light shove that knocked him off his feet and dazed him. I’m with everyone else in wanting to see the video.

 

[mickey2942]

A witness said that the off-duty officer appeared to be having a heart attack. I think it was more than a light shove that knocked him off his feet and dazed him. I’m with everyone else in wanting to see the video.

I have a CCW, Concealed Carry Permit, and cannot see any reason why I would draw my weapon on someone at Costco who knocked me down. Even if I was knocked out, on the floor, with my daughter.

My response would be to get up, and see what happened, what is going on, and why someone knocked me down. Not to whip out my gun and start shooting.

Now, I am not a police officer, I am not specially trained or qualified for anything aside from carrying a gun for personal reasons. But, I would think that a trained officer would have an even higher level of responsibility to assess a situation, prior to response with lethal force.

So, it will be interesting to hear witness responses, and view the video. It is interesting that there haven't been any witness statements in the news, that I have seen.

 

[SeesSeas]

So, it will be interesting to hear witness responses, and view the video. It is interesting that there haven't been any witness statements in the news, that I have seen.

New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/18/us/costco-shooting.html
June 18, 2019
[...]
Dianne Bawit, a 21-year-old student at California State University San Marcos, said she had been shopping for bottled water when she saw a man, who she later learned was the police officer, falling to the ground. She said he had appeared to be in distress.

“He fell pretty hard because I heard a pretty big thump on the ground,” Ms. Bawit said. “He looked like he had a heart attack.”

Ms. Bawit said she initially went to help the officer, but retreated as the altercation escalated.

“He stood up by himself. He pulled out his handgun and starts triggering five to seven shots,” Ms. Bawit said, adding that she was within 10 feet of the men and then took cover. “I was hiding in between the meat aisle, behind the freezer section. I thought I was going to be dead, too.”
[...]

 

[SoCalDavidS]

New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/18/us/costco-shooting.html
June 18, 2019
[...]
Dianne Bawit, a 21-year-old student at California State University San Marcos, said she had been shopping for bottled water when she saw a man, who she later learned was the police officer, falling to the ground. She said he had appeared to be in distress.

“He fell pretty hard because I heard a pretty big thump on the ground,” Ms. Bawit said. “He looked like he had a heart attack.”

Ms. Bawit said she initially went to help the officer, but retreated as the altercation escalated.

“He stood up by himself. He pulled out his handgun and starts triggering five to seven shots,” Ms. Bawit said, adding that she was within 10 feet of the men and then took cover. “I was hiding in between the meat aisle, behind the freezer section. I thought I was going to be dead, too.”
[...]

And this <modsnip> still is not under arrest? Sounds like a pretty short timeline. In the time this witness saw him hit the ground, and she went to help him up, he somehow managed to recover from his state of unconsciousness, and stand up, pull out his gun, and start shooting. And this witness "retreated" before the shots were even fired, yet was a mere 10 ft away when he began shooting. She had obviously not yet reached him, when the altercation escalated. "I THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO BE DEAD TOO."

Who she later learned was the police officer. EXACTLY! It was after the whole incident was over, that she found out the person whose actions had made her fear for her life, was a policeman. At the time of the shooting, she thought he was just some Crazed Hothead that was firing off bullets in a crowded Costco on a Friday night. You know why? Because he was just some Crazed Hothead that was firing off bullets in a crowded Costco on a Friday night! But I guess being an off duty cop somehow makes him above the law. I imagine if he had been on duty and wearing a uniform, the police union would have given him an award.

And where is the mention of the 1 year old? Why wasn't this witness going to help the 1 year old that had supposedly fallen? And why didn't this witness mention that she saw a man holding a baby falling? My guess is that the carrying a child part is all meant to justify the killer's actions, because ya know....nothing more heroic than a man in fear for his baby's life, as well as his own, from who knows what? A big stocky guy at Costco that had just accosted him.

 

[RANCH]

My fear is that the video doesn't show very much and isn't all that helpful. Although you'd think they would just release it if that is the case. I have been trying to remain neutral on this until we knew more.

I'm still on the fence waiting for more information.

There's got to be more evidence besides any video that will help in getting to the truth. Witness testimony, autopsy report, things like that.

I'm in no rush to judgement, I'd rather see a complete investigation that includes all the evidence. JMO