Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #111

[raja]

IIRC. Isn’t this the place that was Abby’s favorite pizza place ?

Hmmmmm would so like to know.

 

[sloane7777]

View attachment 200797

exactly 4.2 miles from the murder site

 

[raja]

Noooo, Pizza King pepperoni pizza is my favorite of all time pizza. The one in my town just closed and I had to have a long moment of silence when this happened. Good news is Pizza Kings are all over Indiana. Abby and Libby most likely loved the one in Delphi. I will say that they open at 4:00 pm, so there's that.

 

[Fizzle]

I feel like Abby did have a connection to that pizza place but I don’t remember what? She was too young to work there, right?

 

[sloane7777]

I really think they know who he is, I think they are having issues with the DNA recovered , what if it was someone who had a close relative that was in on the search , or at the scene when they were found maybe they don't have a full DNA profile, and maybe a blood relative was searching (it is a small area ) could that be an issue? I don't know enough about DNA to know , Thoughts anyone?

quoting my own post , does anyone know if this could happen?

 

[Charlot123]

Perhaps the girls were held elsewhere and disposed of there at the area they were found after the searchers left? I know not Occams Razor here, but I watched the video of LE saying the crime scene was indeed contaminated. This could explain the theory that LE may have multiple DNA profiles, and even if one of the profiles is BGs DNA it can be explained away as he was part of the search party. I imagine a defense attorney would have a field day with reasonable doubt if that is the case. IMO.

I was thinking that one girl was killed immediately and one, slightly later. I am beginning to think he needed only one, and it was more of a JP-type murder, when one gets rid of anyone who is on his way, and any “witness”, too. I know it is at variance with all we know so far, but I feel it is that type of a killer. I also wonder if he either presented as a younger guy online, or thought he was chatting with an 18-year old. Both are possible.

 

[Charlot123]

I really think they know who he is, I think they are having issues with the DNA recovered , what if it was someone who had a close relative that was in on the search , or at the scene when they were found maybe they don't have a full DNA profile, and maybe a blood relative was searching (it is a small area ) could that be an issue? I don't know enough about DNA to know , Thoughts anyone?

If they have full DNA, a close relative searching around would be a strike of luck! A close match!

If they have partial, they have to rely on mitochondrial DNA, or Y (paternal line). This is where a close paternal relative searching could be a hindrance, and maternal DNA could give some idea as to who it could have been.

But maternal mitochondrial DNA is a tricky thing. It could be either too common for the area, or super rare in general (my relative’s one is met in 1:20000, if not less), and then, good luck! It can be used to rule people out more than in.

There might be another situation complicating everything. Any form of adoption, or donor conception, or NPE, or anything that has happened and no one in the area knows about, is going to produce a very different DNA, none being the wiser. There are so many types of pre-natal adoptions today, some are hard to trace. And then you have a rare mito DNA, or a rare Y, or simply no biological relatives in Gedmatch or in the area. One could still work with it, but it will be hard and take a lot of time and money.

The police simply has to take it into account, that a baby born in the area, or the mother walking with a belly and giving birth does not mean that genetically it is their child. Could be a donor egg and then the mitochondrial DNA would be different, or donor sperm and then the person matches only mother, of embryonic donation and then the profile matches no one in the family. I assume egg and embryo donations are expensive, but at the same time, could be common for free among religious people. Now if the donation happened outside the US, it is difficult.

ETA: the most plausible explanation, he simply stole something from another person with that person's DNA, and placed at the crime scene. So the DNA matches nobody.

 

[TL4S]

I've been looking at skibaboo's map:
Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - Google My Maps

And the helicopter footage:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154523478509092

There's a pretty straight shot from between where LE parked at the cemetery, to where they parked on the private road, with the crime scene and creek searches right in between. This is footage from 2/14. I'm sure at that point they already knew about Libby's SC photos on the bridge, but I don't know if they had any other digital info yet, like the BG video, or even her phone.

Fast forward to 2/27 (almost 2 weeks later). Now there are road blocks on Old IN 25 and W 300 N, on either side of Hoosier Heartland Hwy., plus one south on W 200 N (near N 625 W - the one that turns into the private drive south of the bridge). I wonder what happened to bring forth the road blocks on 2/27.

I know many of you don't like to rehash the creek crossing, so scroll and roll. But I'm still struggling with the idea of BG leading the two girls across the creek to kill them. What sort of person puts themselves in that kind of position before committing a crime like this? The footage of the searches proves the water was probably fairly deep for at least some point in the crossing. If he did lead them across, I think that indicates a heck of a lot more about him as a person than almost any other clue we have about him. We still don't even know for sure that he did, anyway.

The idea of him crossing the creek on his exit out makes some sense. He could have crossed and stayed south of the creek and taken the woods all the way to Hoosier Heartland Hwy, if that's what he did to avoid the trail. The attached map is just one option he could have taken where he mostly would have stayed hidden until the highway, and it's only about two and a quarter miles.

IMO, there's something really significant about the way this all went down that we haven't been told, or isn't known yet, even to LE.

 

[tresir2012]

quoting my own post , does anyone know if this could happen?

I believe it can happen with touch DNA.

 

[susiQ]

quoting my own post , does anyone know if this could happen?

I believe in this particular case, anything is possible. Personally though, I feel it unlikely that a relative of the murderer was at the crime scene. Part of the search, maybe.

 

[tresir2012]

I've been looking at skibaboo's map:
Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - Google My Maps

And the helicopter footage:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154523478509092

There's a pretty straight shot from between where LE parked at the cemetery, to where they parked on the private road, with the crime scene and creek searches right in between. This is footage from 2/14. I'm sure at that point they already knew about Libby's SC photos on the bridge, but I don't know if they had any other digital info yet, like the BG video, or even her phone.

Fast forward to 2/27 (almost 2 weeks later). Now there are road blocks on Old IN 25 and W 300 N, on either side of Hoosier Heartland Hwy., plus one south on W 200 N (near N 625 W - the one that turns into the private drive south of the bridge). I wonder what happened to bring forth the road blocks on 2/27.

I know many of you don't like to rehash the creek crossing, so scroll and roll. But I'm still struggling with the idea of BG leading the two girls across the creek to kill them. What sort of person puts themselves in that kind of position before committing a crime like this? The footage of the searches proves the water was probably fairly deep for at least some point in the crossing. If he did lead them across, I think that indicates a heck of a lot more about him as a person than almost any other clue we have about him. We still don't even know for sure that he did, anyway.

The idea of him crossing the creek on his exit out makes some sense. He could have crossed and stayed south of the creek and taken the woods all the way to Hoosier Heartland Hwy, if that's what he did to avoid the trail. The attached map is just one option he could have taken where he mostly would have stayed hidden until the highway, and it's only about two and a quarter miles.

IMO, there's something really significant about the way this all went down that we haven't been told, or isn't known yet, even to LE.

Didn't a witness see him on 300 though IIRC heading east?

MOO

 

[rainwaterstill]

This 22 year old man is facing rape charges in Starke County, Indiana. He goes on trial in November.
Starke County judge: Walkerton man to stand trial on rape charges in November

 

[tresir2012]

I've been looking at skibaboo's map:
Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - Google My Maps

And the helicopter footage:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154523478509092

There's a pretty straight shot from between where LE parked at the cemetery, to where they parked on the private road, with the crime scene and creek searches right in between. This is footage from 2/14. I'm sure at that point they already knew about Libby's SC photos on the bridge, but I don't know if they had any other digital info yet, like the BG video, or even her phone.

Fast forward to 2/27 (almost 2 weeks later). Now there are road blocks on Old IN 25 and W 300 N, on either side of Hoosier Heartland Hwy., plus one south on W 200 N (near N 625 W - the one that turns into the private drive south of the bridge). I wonder what happened to bring forth the road blocks on 2/27.

I know many of you don't like to rehash the creek crossing, so scroll and roll. But I'm still struggling with the idea of BG leading the two girls across the creek to kill them. What sort of person puts themselves in that kind of position before committing a crime like this? The footage of the searches proves the water was probably fairly deep for at least some point in the crossing. If he did lead them across, I think that indicates a heck of a lot more about him as a person than almost any other clue we have about him. We still don't even know for sure that he did, anyway.

The idea of him crossing the creek on his exit out makes some sense. He could have crossed and stayed south of the creek and taken the woods all the way to Hoosier Heartland Hwy, if that's what he did to avoid the trail. The attached map is just one option he could have taken where he mostly would have stayed hidden until the highway, and it's only about two and a quarter miles.

IMO, there's something really significant about the way this all went down that we haven't been told, or isn't known yet, even to LE.

Were there any search warrants executed around then? When was RL arrested?

 

[TL4S]

Were there any search warrants executed around then? When was RL arrested?

According to skibaboo's map, the BBR search was 2/16, and RL's was 3/10.

 

[Charlot123]

But do we really know if the girls were posed?

We do not know anything. Because LE sits on the info. This is why I said, I have to believe the perp is religious because Carter implied this.

There is a limit to sitting on info, though. If the item they found was something like a cross, I'd believe BG is religious.

But I wonder if the guy steals small things, pens or whatnot, from the acquaintances? There are such , people.

(And place it - with the other person's DNA - at the crime scene). Then someone else could recognize the item and the circumstances under which it was stolen.

 

[kc1023]

Flora pizzeria owner charged with child molesting

Has this been posted? This sounds interesting at the bottom of the article.

"As has become customary with suspects in crimes against children in Carroll County, Sandifur's name will be passed along to Indiana State Police to determine if he's suspected of any other possible crimes in the Lafayette Post's district, Thomas and Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said."

(Mods please delete if not allowed)

Oh wow, so this could be considered "hiding in plain sight" I'm thinking

 

[Charlot123]

I've been looking at skibaboo's map:
Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - Google My Maps

And the helicopter footage:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154523478509092

There's a pretty straight shot from between where LE parked at the cemetery, to where they parked on the private road, with the crime scene and creek searches right in between. This is footage from 2/14. I'm sure at that point they already knew about Libby's SC photos on the bridge, but I don't know if they had any other digital info yet, like the BG video, or even her phone.

Fast forward to 2/27 (almost 2 weeks later). Now there are road blocks on Old IN 25 and W 300 N, on either side of Hoosier Heartland Hwy., plus one south on W 200 N (near N 625 W - the one that turns into the private drive south of the bridge). I wonder what happened to bring forth the road blocks on 2/27.

I know many of you don't like to rehash the creek crossing, so scroll and roll. But I'm still struggling with the idea of BG leading the two girls across the creek to kill them. What sort of person puts themselves in that kind of position before committing a crime like this? The footage of the searches proves the water was probably fairly deep for at least some point in the crossing. If he did lead them across, I think that indicates a heck of a lot more about him as a person than almost any other clue we have about him. We still don't even know for sure that he did, anyway.

The idea of him crossing the creek on his exit out makes some sense. He could have crossed and stayed south of the creek and taken the woods all the way to Hoosier Heartland Hwy, if that's what he did to avoid the trail. The attached map is just one option he could have taken where he mostly would have stayed hidden until the highway, and it's only about two and a quarter miles.

IMO, there's something really significant about the way this all went down that we haven't been told, or isn't known yet, even to LE.

Very interesting, thank you. Very.

People running from their death can cross the river, but what person can run through the river, and fast, in a chase?

He has to know the river well. And maybe, be trained in running with barriers? Imagine he'd get into the marines when older, or be a famous athlete. The question is, did anyone in Delphi do it, maybe as a kid, for imaginary world? Or else, it might be a person who was trained to do it in real life, and now retired and settled nearby. Knows Delphi.

 

[Boxer]

Pizza King, IIRC it big enough to serve sports teams. Open fairly late for the area.

 

[Boxer]

Very interesting, thank you. Very.

People
running from their death can cross the river, but what person can run through the river, and fast, in a chase?

He has to know the river well. And maybe, be trained in running with barriers? Imagine he'd get into the marines when older, or be a famous athlete. The question is, did anyone in Delphi do it, maybe as a kid, for imaginary world? Or else, it might be a person who was trained to do it in real life, and now retired and settled nearby. Knows Delphi.

MOO the creek has a permanent sand bar. On the bar's east end, from the south bank there is a ankle deep crossing to
the bar.
Walking on the sand bar to its west end, the there is a crossing to the north bank which is a bit deeper.

 

[tresir2012]

According to skibaboo's map, the BBR search was 2/16, and RL's was 3/10.

Ok so the 2/27/17 was exactly halfway between those two dates and 5 days after the 22nd PC. Maybe they had a tip and just went back for another look at the crime scene.