Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #18

[Jan424]

Yeah the Daily Fail loves to sensationalize and has been particularly egregious several times in this case.

I've found this article to be one of the more detailed accounts from the constables:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/first-nation-constable-stopped-homicide-suspects-1.5230779

I've always found it interesting the detail that they drove through the checkpoint slowly before then stopping. I think they did that quite intentionally to buy themselves time in stowing away something. Obviously wouldn't have passed muster if the vehicle had been thoroughly checked, but I also suspect there would have been 2 more victims if the constables had insisted on checking the vehicle thoroughly.

Edited to add: This is a nice timeline of the case that also includes some info on the constable stop, including the note that Bryer in particular looked "paranoid."
BC teen fugitives found dead

I don't know, I would think (hope!) they would have had enough sense to not be driving around anywhere with two firearms in the car that are easily seen. Of course, you never know with these 2 when it comes to "sense".
Also, I wonder if the constable thought Bryer looked "paranoid" before finding out who they were. Or was this an opinion after the fact. Totally MOO!

 

[Jan424]

It also explains why Bryer asked whether alcohol was allowed on the reservation. Like, "was that really an alcohol checkpoint or is this some kind of trap?" He seemed to be paranoid in general so it would make sense he might think it was a setup. JMO.

Maybe he was just making nervous small talk ... JMO

 

[Zella]

I don't know, I would think (hope!) they would have had enough sense to not be driving around anywhere with two firearms in the car that are easily seen. Of course, you never know with these 2 when it comes to "sense".
Also, I wonder if the constable thought Bryer looked "paranoid" before finding out who they were. Or was this an opinion after the fact. Totally MOO!

That's a good point, but them coming across as nervous has been a recurring thing with witnesses, with Kam also being nervous and Bryer's "paranoia" being commented on specifically. The guy who pulled them out of the mud thought they seemed nervous too and also commented that Bryer looked especially freaked out.

I think it was probably in their favor that they were in situations where the person talking to them might understand why they were nervous. The constables pulling them over thinking they're just nervous because they've blown through a checkpoint; the guy helping them out of the mud thinking they're just nervous because they got mom and dad's vehicle stuck in the mud. Then in retrospect, those witnesses realize, "Oh, they were nervous for other reasons. Like being on the run after killing 3 people."

MOO

 

[Jan424]

Good point. And that would explain why BS is buttoning his shirt as they walk through the store. He may have removed it in the washroom to do a quick wash with some paper towels to his torso, neck, underarms, etc. KM may have done the same but didn't have buttons on his shirt.

Exactly, I said the same in a later post, about BS buttoning his shirt.

 

[Moriarty]

I can appreciate there are many who question the legitimacy of the general narrative about these two, and all of the gaps in our knowledge certainly can feed multiple paths of thought.

But I don’t think it has to be either extreme: two cold-blooded and evil killers running towards a 'blaze of glory' OR two dupes tricked into taking the heat for someone else’s crime and framed by more serious criminals and/or LE.

I think it’s right in the middle of these poles: two inexperienced teens who made some rally bad and dumb decisions in the heat of a given moment, and likely in a second or two, and then compounded those decisions along the way until there seemed no other options than taking their own lives.

 

[Moriarty]

Sorry for the long post here, folks, but in a nutshell, here is what I think happened, and I’ve seen variations of this on all these threads. Pick apart at your leisure:

PART 1
Kam and Bryer were facing a dead-end future in their home town. I know how those night-shifts go, it starts feeling like all you do is sleep and work. They decide to seek their fortune elsewhere, much like AS is always telling them he did when he was younger and left Saskatchewan for BC. And they take their gun(s) because who knows where they’ll end up, in the north or in northern Alberta, but they might want to hunt or need it for protection, and I suspect at least one, but maybe both, of them has a permit.

Things roll along for a day or two and one night they come across a seemingly abandoned van. They decide to poke around it a bit, maybe have some fun, and take the gun with them because in their minds they are cool tacticians and can handle themselves and who knows what or who is around this van. The door flies open and barefoot Lucas comes out, split second decisions are made, shots are fired perhaps in panic/fear/stress (did I read correctly that someone said 9 shell casings were found there?) and, oh crap!, two people are dead.

Kam and Bryer don’t know what to do. They pull the bodies into the ditch. They grab the wallets they see on the dash or whatever and zoom northwards in a panic. They go to Watson Lake or maybe even Whitehorse (but I doubt that), before they start feeling sick and anxious over what they’ve done. They decide they need to go where they feel safe and comfortable, back towards home, and head southwards on 37.

They get as far as Dease Lake when, while stopping for that free coffee, they hear that RCMP are looking for witnesses and dashcam footage from the Liard murders. Oh *advertiser censored*! Did someone see them? Did a security camera pick up their camper truck screaming through Liard at 4am on Jul 15?

 

[Zella]

I can appreciate there are many who question the legitimacy of the general narrative about these two, and all of the gaps in our knowledge certainly can feed multiple paths of thought.

But I don’t think it has to be either extreme: two cold-blooded and evil killers running towards a 'blaze of glory' OR two dupes tricked into taking the heat for someone else’s crime and framed by more serious criminals and/or LE.

I think it’s right in the middle of these poles: two inexperienced teens who made some rally bad and dumb decisions in the heat of a given moment, and likely in a second or two, and then compounded those decisions along the way until there seemed no other options than taking their own lives.

I agree. A lot of what they did screams panic and indecision to me.

 

[Moriarty]

PART 2
More panic. More bad decisions. They can’t go home now. They try to hide their camper in the woods and end up stuck. They need a new ride and find a helpful, friendly plant prof. It’s not easy for them, but they kill him and take his Rav4, grab what they want of their own stuff.

They set fire to their truck, hoping to cover any sort of evidence there might be linking them to any crimes (these two are not CSI, they don’t know what traces of anything might be in or on their truck) or at least, delay any positive identification until they are far away. They take the Rav and head south and then east, keeping to northerly roads and smaller towns (Fairview, Cold Lake, Meadow Lake) and avoiding any big cities (Edmonton, Saskatoon). Through more bad, inexperienced decisions, they end up at the end of the road in northern Manitoba.

Now what? They can’t go back, those Band Constables will see them in Split Lake again and start getting suspicious. They need to go it on foot. Since burning the camper seemed to sort of work and no one knows they’re way off in Manitoba, they’ll burn the Rav too.

They grab what they can carry and follow the creek bed down to the river. They find the old aluminum boat, they pile in. The boat is shallow and the river is faster than it seems. Maybe they hit a rock or maybe they just capsize. They make it to shore with their most important items, their guns at the very least. Perhaps the rest of their stuff including the boat itself floats on downstream and washes up where it is eventually found. According to the mini-doc made by the Globe and Mail linked by @KR72, the boat is found in what looks like a bit of an eddy where flotsam could get stuck.

The Globe and Mail documentary posted earlier places the bodies of Kam and Bryer not far inland along the river, about a km or so upstream of where the belongings are found. Maybe they crawl there or hike there, maybe they are injured.

They hide under the trees. The crappy future they were fleeing looks much, much crappier now. In their limited, gaming experience of the world, they ask themselves, “Do we go out as cowards and murderers or as soldiers and men?...on the count of three…”

No brilliance, no masterplan. Two idiot kids who stumble along until there is no other path.

For the record, JMO.

 

[steelybird]

There are some shoes to walk in yet, as we track the suspects to their deaths.

If you're an rcmp officer, armed to the gills, then you've been warned that these suspects are determined to go down 'guns blazing', and without a doubt you are primed to shoot on site.

If you're a local resident, then the impulse to protect your own people must be strong. You're used to policing yourselves, familiar with the local bush and hunting down and shooting bear, so its not much of a stretch to imagine a local hero or two would have set out to administer some self preservation.

Any of these players would have good reason to shoot the suspects, given the hysteria from the media warnings and weight of police/army activity. Suicide seems most likely given a sudden realization of the hopelessly dire situation they have somehow stumbled into - they pretty much cannot surrender (for driving a stolen vehicle) without being fired upon. Yet, some loose ends stretch credibility for this convenient theory to be foolproof.

The clothing dumped on the riverside, makes zero sense from a fugitive survival standpoint. From an evidence/plant point of view, they allowed easy tracking to the corpses, a km away. Rcmp also knew of the bodies' location long before announcing the find - its why those funky, wheelie hearsy vehicles were brought in only to find it would require boats to bring them out.

The suicide weapon/s will be a determining factor to ensure these suspects fit the crimes they've been accused of committing. Here again, we must suspend logic if we're to accept this as an only truth. Weren't they supposed to have survived some rapids on a bent piece of aluminum? And, swim back to the exact spot where they stored their guns to keep dry?

Stranger things have happened, but I just can't, despite all our interesting discussion, see these couple of tinhorns possessing enough devious smarts to be credited with any of these horrors. And, in fact, if looking for glory, then an alcohol check-stop shoot-out would have been the place.
True evil just couldn't or wouldn't have let that opportunity pass.

In reading your past few posts I’m intrigued by what your overall theory is. Do you think they played any part in the crimes? Were they set up? Framed? I’m just not wrapping my head around the big picture you’re painting and would appreciate clarification.

 

[Jan424]

That's a good point, but them coming across as nervous has been a recurring thing with witnesses, with Kam also being nervous and Bryer's "paranoia" being commented on specifically. The guy who pulled them out of the mud thought they seemed nervous too and also commented that Bryer looked especially freaked out.

I think it was probably in their favor that they were in situations where the person talking to them might understand why they were nervous. The constables pulling them over thinking they're just nervous because they've blown through a checkpoint; the guy helping them out of the mud thinking they're just nervous because they got mom and dad's vehicle stuck in the mud. Then in retrospect, those witnesses realize, "Oh, they were nervous for other reasons. Like being on the run after killing 3 people."

MOO

Yes, all very true and entirely possible. You know, I think about the comments from the guy who got them out of the mud. Bryer "freaking out"... what exactly does that look like? I know what it would look like to me, but he never really mentioned much of that until later, I didn't think. Who knows though. JMO

 

[Zella]

@Moriarty I think that scenario is the most likely and is what I have been thinking. It occurred to me a couple of days ago that bolting and running was sort of a thing for them, especially for Bryer, when they reached complications.

At some point, Bryer apparently ran away from home. He also dropped out of school at one point. He and Kam both bolted rather suddenly from their first job. Regardless of whatever caused those decisions, it seems like "I don't like this; I'm gonna bail" was a default setting.

So, it is perhaps not too surprising that their response to their crimes, regardless of whatever triggered them, was for those two to ultimately freak out and flee.

All MOO

 

[Moriarty]

Sorry to keep blathering on, gang, but I don't believe the whole 'blaze of glory' thing at all, or the 'killing spree' description. If these two are guilty, they killed innocent, unarmed, unsuspecting and likely, helpful, people. There was no equity between perpetrators and victims, if I'm making any sense...they were ambushed.

 

[Moriarty]

@Moriarty I think that scenario is the most likely and is what I have been thinking. It occurred to me a couple of days ago that bolting and running was sort of a thing for them, especially for Bryer, when they reached complications.

At some point, Bryer apparently ran away from home. He also dropped out of school at one point. He and Kam both bolted rather suddenly from their first job. Regardless of whatever caused those decisions, it seems like "I don't like this; I'm gonna bail" was a default setting.

So, it is perhaps not to surprising that their response to their crimes, regardless of whatever triggered them, was for those two to ultimately freak out and flee.

All MOO

Excellent points!

 

[Zella]

Yes, all very true and entirely possible. You know, I think about the comments from the guy who got them out of the mud. Bryer "freaking out"... what exactly does that look like? I know what it would look like to me, but he never really mentioned much of that until later, I didn't think. Who knows though. JMO

I did too. I was curious about that for both him and the constables.

The guy who pulled them out of the mud mentioned something about Bryer nervously fiddling with his pants, which honestly made me think of SNL's Matt Foley, but as people on here noted, maybe he had a gun in the waistband.

 

[Zella]

There is a sad irony in all of us being on tenterhooks, anxiously awaiting answers from an RCMP report that very well could just be a chronicle of really bad, panic-fueled decisions by two squirrelly teenagers.

 

[Jan424]

I did too. I was curious about that for both him and the constables.

The guy who pulled them out of the mud mentioned something about Bryer nervously fiddling with his pants, which honestly made me think of SNL's Matt Foley, but as people on here noted, maybe he had a gun in the waistband.

LOL to the Matt Foley reference. Yes, a gun in the waistband would definitely explain that fiddling. Now that I think about it, he fiddled alot with his shirt/jacket in the Co-op video. Hmmmm, just something else for me to think about. But a gun in the waistband means a handgun then. I kept thinking they had rifles, but we really don't know for sure. JMO

 

[Zella]

LOL to the Matt Foley reference. Yes, a gun in the waistband would definitely explain that fiddling. Now that I think about it, he fiddled alot with his shirt/jacket in the Co-op video. Hmmmm, just something else for me to think about. But a gun in the waistband means a handgun then. I kept thinking they had rifles, but we really don't know for sure. JMO

As someone who is neurotic and fidgety, I see a fellow neurotic fidgeter in Bryer. MOO

 

[CinNC]

Exactly, I said the same in a later post, about BS buttoning his shirt.

Oops. My bad for not noticing. Apologies.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Sorry for the long post here, folks, but in a nutshell, here is what I think happened, and I’ve seen variations of this on all these threads. Pick apart at your leisure:

PART 1
Kam and Bryer were facing a dead-end future in their home town. I know how those night-shifts go, it starts feeling like all you do is sleep and work. They decide to seek their fortune elsewhere, much like AS is always telling them he did when he was younger and left Saskatchewan for BC. And they take their gun(s) because who knows where they’ll end up, in the north or in northern Alberta, but they might want to hunt or need it for protection, and I suspect at least one, but maybe both, of them has a permit.

At 18, not a lot of kids have a big picture vision of their future. It's pretty extreme to give up on a town and a life there because you've worked for 5 weeks at your first job at Walmart and didn't like it. They probably didn't even know what they wanted to do with their lives yet. No one has said of BS or KM, "he wanted to be a [whatever]". I don't think they had even formed any goals, let alone decided that they weren't possible in Port Alberni.

Things roll along for a day or two and one night they come across a seemingly abandoned van. They decide to poke around it a bit, maybe have some fun, and take the gun with them because in their minds they are cool tacticians and can handle themselves and who knows what or who is around this van. The door flies open and barefoot Lucas comes out, split second decisions are made, shots are fired perhaps in panic/fear/stress (did I read correctly that someone said 9 shell casings were found there?) and, oh crap!, two people are dead.

The main point is that they would have to have approached the van armed, and who the heck does that in Canada? I mean, really. I think they approached with intent to use the gun.

Kam and Bryer don’t know what to do. They pull the bodies into the ditch. They grab the wallets they see on the dash or whatever and zoom northwards in a panic. They go to Watson Lake or maybe even Whitehorse (but I doubt that), before they start feeling sick and anxious over what they’ve done. They decide they need to go where they feel safe and comfortable, back towards home, and head southwards on 37.

It's counter-intuitive that they killed by "panic" and then, instead of getting the heck out of there, went and stole wallets. You'd think they would want nothing more to do with the crime scene if they were indeed "in panic/fear/stress", and would not stop to pillage the van and leave prints and DNA.

They get as far as Dease Lake when, while stopping for that free coffee, they hear that RCMP are looking for witnesses and dashcam footage from the Liard murders. Oh ****! Did someone see them? Did a security camera pick up their camper truck screaming through Liard at 4am on Jul 15?

 

[NJSleuth91]

@Moriarty

I trust and value your judgment, and I think you're likely mostly or entirely correct about this scenario.

There is a sad irony in all of us being on tenterhooks, anxiously awaiting answers from an RCMP report that very well could just be a chronicle of really bad, panic-fueled decisions by two squirrelly teenagers.

Doesn't that make it even worse, and sort of more horribly fascinating, if it was, though?

I've had a strong sense the whole time that this thing came really close to never happening.