What's eating you alive re this case?
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Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #181- Latest: girlhasnoname
After years of reading about this case, I still can’t come to a definitive conclusion on whether Burke was involved or not.
Did he murder his sister? Is he completely innocent? Or maybe somewhere in between (maybe not involved in the murder but helped his parents cover up)?
Did he murder his sister? Is he completely innocent? Or maybe somewhere in between (maybe not involved in the murder but helped his parents cover up)?
apabld,
He could be blameless, he has colluded with his parents, but he was a kid way back then so I don't hold that against him.
Technically, probaby not that was likely to be one of the parents.
It could be a case of staging gone wrong, i.e. the staging was intended to offer an interpretation that differs from the current favorite theory.
It could also be a classic case of two parents colluding whilst knowing full well if they dont they both face jail time?
The latter is the common sense view and leads to some form of JDI with Patsy helping with the staging.
Also if you are familiar with the family dynamics this offers a motive for killing JonBenet.
So it might be Burke injured JonBenet, then she was denied medical assistance as a darker secret might be revealed, which results in her death and a staged crime-scene.
Although there is no smoking gun, Patsy leaves so much forensic evidence behind, its difficult to think she was attempting to stage herself out of the case?
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This case sucks. I believe a sadistic pedophile did this. I think the ransom note was just to buy time. I can't make the leap that it was an accidental blow up for a nighttime accident that turned into garroting and sexually assaulting to cover it up. I wish someone who believed the Ramsey's did it explain the psychology of an instance of abusive anger turn into the torture JB endured. I also can't understand why it's always argued the intruder theory would have to necessarily include the perp writing the ransom note there. If the person was say, at their huge Xmas party, could they not have taken the notepad and returned with it? I'm not saying it's impossible for it to be the Ramsey's, but some things need to be expounded upon for me to buy into that. The who. That's what bothers me.
Why would the perp steal the notepad (and marker, which also belonged to the R's) to write a note outside of the house? I'm not trying to be mean here, but that doesn't make any sense why the perp would do that -- there is literally no reason to. Also, there is even less reason why the perp would have returned both the pen and the notepad to the house, after writing the note.
No one knows what happened obviously, but PDI is the scenario that makes the most sense. If she was in a rage from JBR wetting the bed multiple times, she could have snapped -- this isn't an uncommon occurrence with parents and bed-wetting (for the parent to explode in a fit of rage).
Every single thing that was used in that crime, the source was found inside the house. The binding and the duct tape were both traced back to the R's. The note, the marker -- all traced back. The pineapple -- from the house. JR claims the flash light is foreign, but it was found smack dab in the most common place in the home, in the middle of plates of food, on a counter (if I remember correctly) -- funny place for a random stranger to leave a flashlight.
Let's just hypothesize someone smart did it and knew the Ramsey's well. If they know anything about investigations they know police/fbi have tactics to trace where things were purchased. If you use their stuff, it makes the evidence to trace the killer moot. When one brings something to a crime that they purchased, that they owned, it's a lead. The RN said they understood police tactics (can't remember word exactly), maybe that wasn't a lie?
Also, if we're saying patsy loved jonbenet but snapped and crushed her skull (which seems extremely excessive for someone who's not a typical constant abuser, why not just slap her if you're just losing your patience for an instant?) How does that go to garroting her and sexually assaulting her to cover it up? I can see a cover up of an accidental death, but not in this fashion. The autopsy photos are absolutely horrificly brutal, I can't see past doing that, whoever did that to her had to be a man imo.
PS I don't think you were mean. Lol. I really don't understand the theory of PDI or why the note had to be written there.
PDI actually explains both the sexual and physical assault. The one thing it doesn't explain, is the strangulation. If PR was angry enough, she could have enacted the assault while cleaning up JBR after the bed-wetting, either out of rage or as punishment, etc.
Also, I've never said "PR loved JBR" (i.e. "if we're saying," etc.) as you write in your post. I really don't know; I don't think anyone knows the exact dynamics of that household.
In your theory, if the perp stole the items days before the actual crime was to occur, how would he ensure that they wouldn't have been noticed as missing in that time? There's no way he could have known that. He would simply have to rely on assuming that all those items wouldn't have been noticed as missing. This uncertainty alone would have made him hesitant in returning the items.
PR's handwriting was also consistent with the ransom note.
I haven't really solidified a theory. But several things could have happened with the notepad. One, the perp was in the house and took the pad, he also could have took just some pages. It's also plausible he wrote the letter in advance and simply copied it later while in their home. If he is versed in police tactics, he would know that bringing anything to the crime and leaving it is a way to get close to his identity, so it would be clever to do it that way vs. Bringing his own paper and using his own pen.
I supposed if this was accidental on patsys part, per the theory, then she didn't actually want her daughter to suffer a brutal death because she loved her. Based on the violence inflicted on the child, there's no way that person didn't want her to die and suffer while doing so.
In the coroner's report, there was a foreign material found in her vagina that matches paint possibly, which to me means she was penetrated somewhat with the garrote that was used to kill her. Now I understand that patsy allegedly wiped her hard due to her accidents (which is awful if true) but I think there is evidence of a different type of sexual assault that was done by the perp to be gratified sexually. So I can't see patsy doing that type of assault just to cover up.
There's a video on YouTube of the crime scene. The house was messy. I wouldn't be surprised if someone could take something and return it without them noticing. They had so much stuff it's kinda shocking.
So again, I just don't understand the psychology of an accident turned torture to cover it up in the patsy did it or Burke did it theories. And I don't understand why the perp had to necessarily come up with and write the note on the night of the crime.
I also get that patsys handwriting can't be excluded, but that's not that strong of evidence by itself imo. It's a start, but not a smoking gun.
graceness,
The torture aspect is to mask prior injuries or reuse items present at the crime-scene, the perp did not need to write a note, but the Ramsey's required a narrative that explained why JonBenet went from her bedroom down to the basement, and a kidnapping did it.
Hang in there and it will all eventually make sense!
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Hey there, well the above is all understandable as its a staged crime-scene, not all the elements are perfect or appropriate, but the Ramsey's did enough to lay a false trail, as evidenced by your skepticism.
The torture aspect is to mask prior injuries or reuse items present at the crime-scene, the perp did not need to write a note, but the Ramsey's required a narrative that explained why JonBenet went from her bedroom down to the basement, and a kidnapping did it.
Hang in there and it will all eventually make sense!
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The bolded isn't plausible, because there were practice notes found in the trash at the R's residence. That alone -- to me -- disproves all your note theories.
The pages were not crinkled, folded, or otherwise disturbed at all -- so taking a few pages out and bringing them back in would be impossible without disturbing them, at least minimally.
Also, taking those items out, bringing them somewhere else, writing the note, bringing them back in -- without knowing if said items had been noticed as missing -- all this would do, is make it easier for the perp to get arrested, as he would have more opportunities to taint those items in his own house, with his own DNA, etc., before returning them.
Love really has nothing to do with it. Rage killings happen in the spur of the moment. They're not premeditated. Once she believed JBR was deceased, that's when survival mode would have kicked in. Torture had nothing to do with it; that particular injury was more likely to cover up prior assaults. It could have occurred as punishment (a scenario I mentioned before) but it also could have occurred after she had already perished.
The kitchen (were the pad was) was not messy; it was quite orderly in that area.
There are fibers on the duct tape from PR's sweater and fibers from JR's sweater connected to the sexual assault. Are these just coincidence?
I disagree obviously that it's impossible to tear 7 pages out of a notepad without crinkling it, supposedly that's how the ransom note was found, uncrinkled, and those would have had to be torn out. I have turned in many papers in my life and was able to avoid wrinkling them by placing them in a folder. And I don't think finding what looks like practice notes really means it's impossible for the perp to not have a pre-letter written to copy from. It's my understanding that it looked like "Mr. And Mrs. /" and the forward slash was the beginning of an 'R' and that was the screwed up practice note? Was there more than that?
Also, I thought the kitchen was kind of messy and just from experience I can conceive of a notepad not being missed if someone took one from my house. Or if someone tore out pages from the middle, I wouldn't notice. It's just not something I normally would be paying attention to in everyday life, especially at Christmas time.
To me, what you're saying about the torture is pure speculation, the covering up of prior assaults and kicking into survival mode and further assaulting. There's no evidence that they were that violently abusive, is there? A rage killing doesn't stop with one blow to the head. Rage killings are repeated blows or stabs. This is different.
As for the fibers on the duct tape. The scene was contaminated. John pulled the duct tape off her mouth and picked her up. It could have been transferred easily.
I was 15 when this happened. I'm new to it and haven't really read all the hype and when I'm reading theories about patsy or Burke, I find them problematic. I haven't made up my mind what happened and the police really screwed up, so it seems like a lot of things could have been clearer if they hadn't. If there's some sort of proof that these people were in fact degenerate abusers to JB, then I probably could see it. But from what I see, people are speculating that because then it fits the theory. Without that abuse history, the theory makes no sense at all. With the police fumbling the crime scene, I don't see how we can ever know.
Apparently I replied to two different people's posts only quoting you. Sorry.
How would the killer know to bring in a folder beforehand? How would he know that there would be a notepad out in the open for him to steal a few pages from? There are just way too many variables to your scenario that don't add up.
If memory serves, there were at least two practice notes crumpled up in the trash: one which you speak of, and at least one other page.
Also, the ink bled through the page that was found in the trash:
"But the next group of pages, 17 through 25, were also missing from the tablet. The following page, 26, was the practice ransom note (Mr. and Mrs. I), and that page showed evidence of ink bleedthrough from the missing page 25."
"Comparisons of the ragged tops of the ransom note pages with the remnants left in the tablet proved that it had come from pages 27, 28, and 29."
-- Steve Thomas & Don Davis: Jonbenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation. s-evidence-ransom-note-pad.htm
The kitchen was messy, but the pad wasn't in the kitchen. It was in a separate area where the phone and spiral staircase was, which separated the kitchen from the back of the house. That area was tidy.
It was PR fibers on the duct tape. Not JR's. So that doesn't explain it.
We are all speculating here, yourself included. Also, where are you getting that information that all rage killings consist of multiple blows? That's conjecture -- which is fine -- but I disagree. Rage killings are capable of consisting of one blow.
I understand you can't believe in a particular theory -- I'm the same way about BDI. To me, that theory is completely and utterly wrong. IDI (your theory: intruder did it) also has way too many variables that are unexplainable. Quite honestly, every theory (PDI included) does -- but you have to judge it by which theory holds least amount of unexplained variables. To me, that's PDI. Filicide is unfortunately all too common in this country. A parent killing a child happens more often than we think - CNN
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mickey2942
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The fact that the family seemed so impossibly "tone deaf" to the situation makes me think that they somehow "normalized" the death of JB, as less than shocking and horrifying.
The only way something that horrific could be "normalized", is if you had participated in the event and minimized how awful it actually was...their demeanor when they talked about it, made me think that they had completely depersonlized JB.
How tone deaf were they when JR thought he could actually win a political office? Or when BR publicly announced his innocence? It was about "them", not JB.
The only way something that horrific could be "normalized", is if you had participated in the event and minimized how awful it actually was...their demeanor when they talked about it, made me think that they had completely depersonlized JB.
How tone deaf were they when JR thought he could actually win a political office? Or when BR publicly announced his innocence? It was about "them", not JB.
I think if it was an intruder it had to be planned and it was someone that knew them. So I postulate, what if someone at their party was planning to do this and do this crime this particular way. How would they go about it? They could have stolen some paper and a pen at the party and wrote the ransom note at home. Or they could have prewritten a ransom note and copied it there. They also just as easily could have written it on the fly. I just don't know why it has to be they wrote it on the fly in the middle of the crime. There's other possibilities that never get considered. So I think people need to consider some level of sophistication on the part of the killer as a possibility.
Another thing that makes me wonder about a partygoer possibly being the perpetrator is the 911 call on the 23rd. Was that a test to see how long it would take the cops to get there? It's curious to me.
I concede it's possible that a rage killing might not be repeated blows or stabs, but usually finding a body with 40 blows or stabs indicates a rage killing. Unless I'm conflating rage and crime of passion? If so, whoops!
The duct tape having PR sweater fibers can be explained by transfer from John, who removed the tape and hugged and carried the body. It's like that evidence is useless now because JR was allowed to do what he did. Kinda blows.
My point about the speculation of abuse is that it's given the weight of evidence. There is no evidence that I know of that demonstrates he/she/they were abusive to their kids. So evidence is being speculated vs speculating about the evidence that does exist.
I agree, that parents are most likely to perpetrate the murder of their child, (I wonder how many parents garrote their child?) but that too is not evidence, just statistics. People do murder other people's children as well.
At least we can agree BDI is utterly wrong
I think if it was an intruder it had to be planned and it was someone that knew them. So I postulate, what if someone at their party was planning to do this and do this crime this particular way. How would they go about it? They could have stolen some paper and a pen at the party and wrote the ransom note at home. Or they could have prewritten a ransom note and copied it there. They also just as easily could have written it on the fly. I just don't know why it has to be they wrote it on the fly in the middle of the crime. There's other possibilities that never get considered. So I think people need to consider some level of sophistication on the part of the killer as a possibility.
Another thing that makes me wonder about a partygoer possibly being the perpetrator is the 911 call on the 23rd. Was that a test to see how long it would take the cops to get there? It's curious to me.
I concede it's possible that a rage killing might not be repeated blows or stabs, but usually finding a body with 40 blows or stabs indicates a rage killing. Unless I'm conflating rage and crime of passion? If so, whoops!
The duct tape having PR sweater fibers can be explained by transfer from John, who removed the tape and hugged and carried the body. It's like that evidence is useless now because JR was allowed to do what he did. Kinda blows.
My point about the speculation of abuse is that it's given the weight of evidence. There is no evidence that I know of that demonstrates he/she/they were abusive to their kids. So evidence is being speculated vs speculating about the evidence that does exist.
I agree, that parents are most likely to perpetrate the murder of their child, (I wonder how many parents garrote their child?) but that too is not evidence, just statistics. People do murder other people's children as well.
At least we can agree BDI is utterly wrong
I hate to harp on your ransom note theory, but again, the practice note found in the trash had evidence of ink bleed-through from page 25. The fact that there was a practice note alone disproves your theory, and the fact that there was a practice note found in the trash disproves the possibility that the note was written outside the house.
Other possibilities have been considered, but no others make sense. I think you're ignoring what the evidence tells us by trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. Ink from the prior page was found on the practice note, which was found in the trash, inside the house. The killer didn't write a practice note outside and illogically conclude that he needed to return it from outside the home, and throw it away inside the trash can.
That still wouldn't explain it. If it was a (i.e. lone) fiber -- okay -- but there were multiple fibers from PR's sweater found on the duct tape. Yes, he tainted the evidence by carrying JBR, but that evidence wouldn't have been tainted from what he did: the duct tape and the blanket remained in the cellar room after he carried her body upstairs. Also, he only used his hand to remove the duct tape -- that wouldn't account for the numerous amount of fibers from PR's sweater.
When the duct tape was removed, JR immediately flung it and it adhered onto the blanket that was wrapped around JBR when she was found. If anything, it was that blanket that contained fibers from PR's sweater and caused a secondary transfer to the duct tape (not JR). PR has gone on record saying that she wore that sweater and slept in it from the night before -- this incriminates her all the more, as it proves she was wearing that same sweater when she wrapped JBR in said blanket the night she was murdered.
You're speculating on evidence that doesn't exist because there is absolutely no evidence that the note was written outside of the house. None. Again, everyone is speculating, including you -- no point in constantly excessively belaboring the point by bringing it up in every post.
There are conflicting reports that JBR was sexually abused for a prolonged period of time before the murder. If those reports are accurate, that would obviously be evidence of abuse.
I wouldn't call "Mr and Mrs /" a practice note. It's the beginning of a salutation.
It's odd to me that you find that so problematic, but not PR crushing her daughter's skull accidentally, then garroting her and sexually abusing her to cover it up. If you can think that someone would go to that length to cover an accidental killing, surely you can accept it's also possible that a murderer likewise tried to cover his identity by not leaving something that could be traced back to him?
I understand if you think it's unlikely for a person to steal a notepad and return with it and throw some pages away at the home, but it's certainly not impossible. It's also not impossible that someone wrote a ransom note on their own paper at home, brought it with to the crime, copied it down on the notepad. Nothing has been "disproved." (I will concede that stealing the paper and bringing it back seems unlikely, I do think already having one written out and copying it down there makes good sense for the intruder theory. That note took some time, no matter who wrote it.)
So we agree, the duct tape is contaminated and thus can't really disclose what we wish it could.
I don't think wearing the same clothes from the night before means anything. It could mean something, but it equally could be meaningless. You will interpret that as PR was up all night doing this heinous crime and I will interpret as she was very tired from Christmas.
Have you read about the theory that strangulation came first, then the blow to the head? What are your thoughts on that?
southernmimi
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This is very old news, but I remember when it all happened so will add my thoughts. Originally, the housekeeper said Patsy killed JBR. She was quoted as saying she heard Patsy screaming at JB often when they were in the bathroom following an accident when she soiled herself. Part of Patsy's corporal punishment for JBR was a douche...which would explain the old and new damage to the child's vaginal area. Accidental deaths and murders are often what they appear to be, and I think this old case is just that simple. A tired and stressed Mom...probably mixed with some wine and a few pills lashed out when JBR wet herself during the night. Lots of evidence points to a bedwetting accident. I don't think Patsy ever intended to harm her child in any way, but she did. What happened after that is where the horror begins. Every theory on the planet has been hashed and re-hashed over the years but nothing fits like the original one.
fridaybaker
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A....DOUCHE....as "corporal punishment"? These folks are all kinds of sick.
Maldoror
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You mean someone outside of the family? That sort of thing is extremely rare: a random pedo breaking into a house to abduct, abuse, murder, and then stick around to set-up evidence to confuse and distract? On the other hand, it's more likely that whoever committed the deed was familiar with the house.