CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #8

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@sroad: Vegetation, Cholla 3-4' hi; Creosote 6' + hi. 5th Wheel Visibility

To help make it easy to find for future discussion, clipping this valuable ^ info from thread 8, post 797 by @sroad. :):):) TYVM.
Relevant paragraph of post is below.
....And also regarding vegetation and "corners", Robert was not clear about this corner, but from walking there, while the trail looks straight on Google Earth, it actually is meandering enough to loose someone out of sight every 100-150 feet or so. And while the cholla vegetation is only 3-4 feet tall, the creosote and other vegetation can be as high as 6 feet or a bit more at times. So she would have gone out of sight pretty fast after "rounding a corner" so to speak. The 5th wheel would have been visible at most times however, due to it being bright and about 12-14 feet tall would be my guess.
 
(Robert, if you end up reading this and Barbara was lost in this area and you've changed mind about the abduction scenario, I would urge you to provide more details, a detailed timeline, and photos from your hike with the public. As a volunteer, I would have gone out there again IF I had something else to work with like a photo showing she was there in that environment, or a map of your hike (the mornings and evenings are quite doable for hiking in the desert as the temps drop nicely up there at close to 4000 feet elevation for those of us who are used to the desert. If LE or your lawyer won't let you share information, then share that info with the VI @dbdb11, so they can share it here).

Chiming in to clarify a few more things. The inaccurate description of, "dry lake bed" that someone mentioned is really a dry wash that runs north around the main rock formation that they allegedly walked up to, see attached photo. I walked the wash several times east (downhill) towards the location where the 5th wheel was parked and even double checked the culverts under the road that come out of the wash and then parallel HH dirt road. SAR also extensively walked that wash east and west of Kelbaker rd with the dogs as I observed those last two days before they suspended their search. Also, as I mentioned before, I chatted with the sheriff on site at their incident command 5th wheel, and he confirmed that that was the exact location that Robert allegedly was parked. So that is where they conducted their search operations from.

Sweeney Granite Mountains Desert Research Center is not visible from the hike, as there is a ridge that comes from the Granite mountains that blocks that view. If one were to hike to the rock formations, and then skirt around the Granite Mountains towards the research center, it would take about 3.7 miles to get there one way and uphill, so quite a ways from the turnout.

The parking lot many folks have mentioned is just a little ways up the road, near the pass, and is like a scenic view parking area. This is the most plausible parking area for cars making a brief stop. Google Maps You can use the scroll wheel on your mouse to zoom in towards the rock formations and see the pole line. I noted this in my observation from having been there not just driving through, but on my hikes. I was able to see the cars with the naked eye from most of the locations in the attached Google Earth snapshot. So again that 360 degree shot that is mentioned as showing cars would be very helpful to see, so we can see where it was taken from. You'd occasionally see a car or two stopped there for a small break and then they'd be off again.

There have also been many weather numbers thrown around over all these pages. If you want the most accurate temps, the weather station at the UC reserve and research center is the most accurate, as it is a scientifically calibrated weather station. Attached are the daily highs for the day they went hiking. It didn't quite reach the triple digits but still hot. Due to it's elevation, it is not so hot as the surrounding valleys. Sweeney Granite Mountains California

And also regarding vegetation and "corners", Robert was not clear about this corner, but from walking there, while the trail looks straight on Google Earth, it actually is meandering enough to loose someone out of sight every 100-150 feet or so. And while the cholla vegetation is only 3-4 feet tall, the creosote and other vegetation can be as high as 6 feet or a bit more at times. So she would have gone out of sight pretty fast after "rounding a corner" so to speak. The 5th wheel would have been visible at most times however, due to it being bright and about 12-14 feet tall would be my guess.

This is very helpful information! Do you by any chance have the coordinates of the staging area?
 
@sroad: Vegetation, Cholla 3-4' hi; Creosote 6' + hi. 5th Wheel Visibility

To help make it easy to find for future discussion, clipping this valuable ^ info from thread 8, post 797 by @sroad. :):):) TYVM.
Relevant paragraph of post is below.
I think it's important that sroad's said the RV would be visible "at most times" and not at all times.

That means it's possible that BT couldn't see the RV when she thought she should and then became disorientated. JMO
 
IIRC correctly he didn’t fail the polygraph, but it showed some deception. That’s a big difference.
What is the difference?

To me there's no difference because polygraphs are unreliable. That''s why they are not allowed as evidence at trial. JMO

Although polygraphs are also called lie detectors, in reality a polygraph machine does not have any reliable capacity for detecting the truth or falsity of a statement.
https://www.brodenmickelsen.com/blog/why-polygraph-tests-are-not-admissible-in-court/
 
In California it is possible for polygraph results to be used at trial. However,all parties have to agree to it.
(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the results of a polygraph examination, the opinion of a polygraph examiner, or any reference to an offer to take, failure to take, or taking of a polygraph examination, shall not be admitted into evidence in any criminal proceeding, including pretrial and post conviction motions and hearings, or in any trial or hearing of a juvenile for a criminal offense, whether heard in juvenile or adult court, unless all parties stipulate to the admission of such results.

I just can't see why a defendant would agree to letting a jury see the results that showed deception or a prosecutor wanting to give a jury results that show no deception from the defendant. JMO.

California Code, Evidence Code - EVID CA EVID § 351.1 | FindLaw
 
IIRC correctly he didn’t fail the polygraph, but it showed some deception. That’s a big difference.
Chiming in here - I would imagine that RT would be told by LE that he was being 'deceptive' not that he had 'failed'. I think this was RTs way of explaining it, not what he was told by LE
 
what if, just what if, no one was involved in BT's disappearance and she genuinely became lost? is that a possibility? that alone. i am not taking into consideration for my question, if she may have had an argument with someone or any other detail affecting or leading up to said disappearance. reading what little evidence has been made public by L.E and the last known person to see B.T, could this still figure at all in this case? (seems cold to call this a case when it's regarding a human life at the core)
MOO
(ETA: i realise this has been discussed at length, just in light of a sleuther walking in that area and producing photographs recently. going solely on facts given to us.)
 
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Given what he was reported to have said to the clerk, it sounds like he was trying to establish that she was with him. As indeed she may have been, if the photos establish that both of them went on that walk in the Mojave a bit later (as the case detective said they do). JMO
You could even read the opposite into it: that she wasn't there. As I understand it, he may have meant that he had difficulty manoeuvring the RV into the gas station without her assistance, and that was why he parked across the road - because she wasn't there. Now I don't think it meant that she wasn't there to help, I'm sure he parked across the road merely because it was more convenient. I'm just saying that it could be interpreted that way, but we don't know exactly what he said and we don't know if the clerk misunderstood.

However if the police are satisfied that there are photos proving her presence in the desert later that day, she must have been with him at the gas station.
 
(Robert, if you end up reading this and Barbara was lost in this area and you've changed mind about the abduction scenario, I would urge you to provide more details, a detailed timeline, and photos from your hike with the public. As a volunteer, I would have gone out there again IF I had something else to work with like a photo showing she was there in that environment, or a map of your hike (the mornings and evenings are quite doable for hiking in the desert as the temps drop nicely up there at close to 4000 feet elevation for those of us who are used to the desert. If LE or your lawyer won't let you share information, then share that info with the VI @dbdb11, so they can share it here).

Chiming in to clarify a few more things. The inaccurate description of, "dry lake bed" that someone mentioned is really a dry wash that runs north around the main rock formation that they allegedly walked up to, see attached photo. I walked the wash several times east (downhill) towards the location where the 5th wheel was parked and even double checked the culverts under the road that come out of the wash and then parallel HH dirt road. SAR also extensively walked that wash east and west of Kelbaker rd with the dogs as I observed those last two days before they suspended their search. Also, as I mentioned before, I chatted with the sheriff on site at their incident command 5th wheel, and he confirmed that that was the exact location that Robert allegedly was parked. So that is where they conducted their search operations from.

Sweeney Granite Mountains Desert Research Center is not visible from the hike, as there is a ridge that comes from the Granite mountains that blocks that view. If one were to hike to the rock formations, and then skirt around the Granite Mountains towards the research center, it would take about 3.7 miles to get there one way and uphill, so quite a ways from the turnout.

The parking lot many folks have mentioned is just a little ways up the road, near the pass, and is like a scenic view parking area. This is the most plausible parking area for cars making a brief stop. Google Maps You can use the scroll wheel on your mouse to zoom in towards the rock formations and see the pole line. I noted this in my observation from having been there not just driving through, but on my hikes. I was able to see the cars with the naked eye from most of the locations in the attached Google Earth snapshot. So again that 360 degree shot that is mentioned as showing cars would be very helpful to see, so we can see where it was taken from. You'd occasionally see a car or two stopped there for a small break and then they'd be off again.

There have also been many weather numbers thrown around over all these pages. If you want the most accurate temps, the weather station at the UC reserve and research center is the most accurate, as it is a scientifically calibrated weather station. Attached are the daily highs for the day they went hiking. It didn't quite reach the triple digits but still hot. Due to it's elevation, it is not so hot as the surrounding valleys. Sweeney Granite Mountains California

And also regarding vegetation and "corners", Robert was not clear about this corner, but from walking there, while the trail looks straight on Google Earth, it actually is meandering enough to loose someone out of sight every 100-150 feet or so. And while the cholla vegetation is only 3-4 feet tall, the creosote and other vegetation can be as high as 6 feet or a bit more at times. So she would have gone out of sight pretty fast after "rounding a corner" so to speak. The 5th wheel would have been visible at most times however, due to it being bright and about 12-14 feet tall would be my guess.
Thanks for this @sroad , it is very useful. RTs interview stated that they were on their way back to the truck when he stopped to take another photo. Could this be the small outcrop (see attached, circled in blue) do you think? If so, then I think it more likely that Barbara became lost. @10ofRods - what d you think?

Your point about being able to see the RV, would this be the case even though it was on the other side of the road? Is the turnout lower or higher than the horizon do you think?

Also, do you think that the temperatures are amenable for further searches now? If so, is there anything we can do to organise them?

ETA final question!
ETA the picture :)
 

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what if, just what if, no one was involved in BT's disappearance and she genuinely became lost? is that a possibility? that alone. i am not taking into consideration for my question, if she may have had an argument with someone or any other detail affecting or leading up to said disappearance. reading what little evidence has been made public by L.E and the last known person to see B.T, could this still figure at all in this case? (seems cold to call this a case when it's regarding a human life at the core)
MOO
(ETA: i realise this has been discussed at length, just in light of a sleuther walking in that area and producing photographs recently. going solely on facts given to us.)

I do think it's possible that BT got lost/confused and walked in the wrong direction. She could be in the search area but just not found, or she could have walked so far that she ended up somewhere beyond the search area.
 
@sroad, thank you for your excellent and helpful post above. Do you have any thoughts on what hill the 360 photo RT talked about might have been taken from? Perhaps there are too many possibilities.
 
Theres really no difference between the 2 phrases you're using. Polygraphs show deception, no deception, or inconclusive.
I'm obviously no expert, but I would guess that a polygraph might pick up on an omission (rather than an outright lie). So if the two of them parted acrimoniously (eg Barbara wtte "I'm fed up with your faffing about! I'm not waiting one second longer!" and stomped off in a mood) and he didn't mention that detail (and I can understand why he might hold that back), it might register on the polygraph.
 
You are helping, bronbaby.

Kapua, you are awesome. I'm going to send the poster to some hobbyists who do various things on the desert (just poking around on FB, found a few groups).
If you belong to any buy, sell, trade groups on FB and they allow you to post it there, that is a good way to reach thousands of people with one post. In the past, I've learned that they generally don't allow you to join those groups unless you live in the area. So, tag you're it. ;) MOO
 
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