Italy- Finnegan Elder, 19 & Gabriel Hjorth, 18, US students, police murder, 26 Jul 2019 *guilty* *new trial 2023*

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10ofRods said:
The felony murder rule is, I believe, on a state-by-state basis. And it doesn't just say that one person is the presence of a murder, it says that both people were in the act of committing a felony (any felony) when the murder occurred. This keeps people from being charged with murder merely because a friend or family member kills someone while they're there. Here's a more succinct summary than I can provide:

Felony murder rule - Wikipedia

I've been involved in a couple of felony murder rule cases. One involved two men sent to "ask" a woman for the return of a ring, in which one of the men took a weapon and a guard on the property of the woman ended up dead. Man #2 ( who didn't have a weapon) tried to claim he only thought they were there to "ask" for the ring, but Man #1 had bolt cutters and had cut through a fence (charged with felony breaking and entering - so now, both were charged with murder; Man #2 was successful in turning state's witness and getting a reduced charge with no murder conviction . BTW, the bolt cutters were used to retrieve the ring and the guard was killed when he was pushed into a concrete culvert. The court ruled that the subsequent felony (cutting off the woman's finger to get the ring) was enough to hold both of them responsible for the death of the guard but Man #2 plead out.

The other case was pretty well-publicized, in which a defendant was the getaway car driver after a fight broke out at a party (to which no one in the defendant's group was explicitly invited). One person died as a result of a blow thrown by a member of the defendant's group. Puncher was eventually convicted of 2nd degree murder (along with everyone else in that group). The qualifying felonies in that case included assault and battery (even though only one person in the group was proved to have thrown punches). The prosecution successfully argued that the group went to the party looking to assault and batter. A felony trespass charge was dropped (that was the part I worked on).

Italy also has the felony murder rule, and in this case, there were at least two felonies in which it looks like both men participated: the drug deal and then the theft of the backpack. Resisting arrest may also be a significant charge in Italy. So yeah, the second man can be charged and possibly found guilty of murder.

I think he will be charged that way, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's found guilty.
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Thank you for explaining that in detail!

The suspect's families seem to be splitting hairs with Gabriel's family claiming that he is innocent because he didn't know that they killed an officer, and Finnegan's family claiming that the carabinieri eye witness doesn't know what he's talking about.

I'm convinced that they are in this for years whether they like it or not. Their lives are forever altered and no amount of money will solve the situation. The widow already has a lawyer, so all decisions will have input from the prosecution, the victim, and the defense. Denial will only make things worse.
 
Good morning, otto! (And everyone). I will say that having people to discuss this case with...is really awesome.

Yes, the felony murder rule means that a second person in a duo (who knows that some of what they are doing is illegal, such as carrying a military knife or going to buy drugs or going to steal a backpack etc) can be charged with all murders resulting therefrom. It's a good rule, I think.

In Italy, fessing up gets a suspect much much better sentencing. Amanda Knox refused to fess up or show remorse (for a crime she was ultimately determined not to commit). It'sg not so in this case. They are clearly the only suspects, they will be convicted (and within the next year) and the families should make their peace with that.

Totally ag ree that if they want to avoid life at hard labor and get a prison experience more like Amanda's, they need to throw themselves on the mercy of the court, plead guilty, give tearful public apologies, remind everyone of their youth, and in general, do what is expected by the Italian court system to get a lighter sentence. They should accept that lighter sentence!
 
10ofRods said:
Good morning, otto! (And everyone). I will say that having people to discuss this case with...is really awesome.

Yes, the felony murder rule means that a second person in a duo (who knows that some of what they are doing is illegal, such as carrying a military knife or going to buy drugs or going to steal a backpack etc) can be charged with all murders resulting therefrom. It's a good rule, I think.

In Italy, fessing up gets a suspect much much better sentencing. Amanda Knox refused to fess up or show remorse (for a crime she was ultimately determined not to commit). It'sg not so in this case. They are clearly the only suspects, they will be convicted (and within the next year) and the families should make their peace with that.

Totally ag ree that if they want to avoid life at hard labor and get a prison experience more like Amanda's, they need to throw themselves on the mercy of the court, plead guilty, give tearful public apologies, remind everyone of their youth, and in general, do what is expected by the Italian court system to get a lighter sentence. They should accept that lighter sentence!
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I totally agree with you. Anyone who watched the trials for the murder of Meredith Kercher knows that confession and remorse are the path to a lenient sentence and early release. The families should even consider hiring Knox as a consultant to better understand the Italian judicial system.
 
I wonder what the plan is. If they are released, they will want to flee the country. Does this request force the prosecution to tip its' hand regarding evidence?

"A lawyer for an American teenager jailed in Rome in connection with the fatal stabbing of an Italian police officer has petitioned a court for his client's release.
...

Another lawyer made a similar request last week on behalf of Elder's friend, 18-year-old Gabriel Christian Natale-Hjorth."​

Italy court asked to free US teen held in officer's killing
 
If the family is spending money on lawyers' billing hours to request release from jail, they are really really unfamiliar with Italian courts, IMO. Or they must believe themselves to be made of money.

MOO: people from Marin County tend to live in one of California's most intense bubbles (and California is already in its own bubble, as a place where people are often released on bail if their families have enough money and where all manner of strange defenses are mounted - in NorCal, especially; cf Twinkie Defense).

They really should hire Amanda Knox as a consultant. But the pathway through this, for these two families, is going to be fraught with disappointment, I'm afraid. The man without the knife and with an Italian family will, if he can avoid the felony murder rule, be able to throw himself on the mercy of the court, which will leave Elder in a cell, potentially for the rest of his life. It's a problem the family cannot solve by throwing money at it (and that's how it should be, IMO).
 
10ofRods said:
If the family is spending money on lawyers' billing hours to request release from jail, they are really really unfamiliar with Italian courts, IMO. Or they must believe themselves to be made of money.

MOO: people from Marin County tend to live in one of California's most intense bubbles (and California is already in its own bubble, as a place where people are often released on bail if their families have enough money and where all manner of strange defenses are mounted - in NorCal, especially; cf Twinkie Defense).

They really should hire Amanda Knox as a consultant. But the pathway through this, for these two families, is going to be fraught with disappointment, I'm afraid. The man without the knife and with an Italian family will, if he can avoid the felony murder rule, be able to throw himself on the mercy of the court, which will leave Elder in a cell, potentially for the rest of his life. It's a problem the family cannot solve by throwing money at it (and that's how it should be, IMO).
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Thinking back to the beginning of the Meredith Kercher trials, the Knox family and many who supported her seemed to believe that Italian police and justice system were "medieval" and incompetent. Maybe there is some hope, or assumption, by these families that this is true.

I think we all learned through the 3 accused during the Kercher trials that if they are guilty, they should confess. If one confesses and speaks against the other (as we saw with Rudy Guede) the confessor is put on a path to rehabilitation and early release while the ones who do not confess have their sentences extended after a failed appeal.

I'm sure that Italian lawyers would explain this to the suspects, yet both seem to be on a path to fight the system.
 
Yes, I'm sure that most people in California would probably think Italy was medieval, that France still had "Napoleonic" law and so on.

I do believe that Hjorth is well positioned to avail himself of a faster route out of prison, if only his family can stop encouraging him to fight.

At any rate, those two families may well run out of money long before they can get their sons out of prison in Italy. At least they haven't put up Go Fund Me's (yet).
 
10ofRods said:
Yes, I'm sure that most people in California would probably think Italy was medieval, that France still had "Napoleonic" law and so on.

I do believe that Hjorth is well positioned to avail himself of a faster route out of prison, if only his family can stop encouraging him to fight.

At any rate, those two families may well run out of money long before they can get their sons out of prison in Italy. At least they haven't put up Go Fund Me's (yet).
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He was born in Italy and immigrated to the USA. If he is convicted of murder in Italy, does he risk losing his USA citizenship?
 
otto said:
He was born in Italy and immigrated to the USA. If he is convicted of murder in Italy, does he risk losing his USA citizenship?
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Where have you read that NH was born in Italy? His father was born in Italy, but according to Italian police both FE and NE were born in San Fransisco. Finnegan Elder and Gabriel Natale-Hjorth, U.S. teens, jailed in Italy police killing

An article with an interview with NH:s father, and an interview with an Italian Parliament member who visited FE and NH in prison to check on their condition after the blindfold photo: Inside the prison where 2 US teens accused of killing Italian officer are being held
 
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FrostOwl said:
Where have you read that NH was born in Italy? His father was born in Italy, but according to Italian police both FE and NE were born in San Fransisco. Finnegan Elder and Gabriel Natale-Hjorth, U.S. teens, jailed in Italy police killing

An article with an interview with NH:s father, and an interview with an Italian Parliament member who visited FE and NH in prison to check on their condition after the blindfold photo: Inside the prison where 2 US teens accused of killing Italian officer are being held
Click to expand...

Thank you! My mistake

"Natale, who was born in Italy but immigrated to the United States as a boy, returns to Italy every summer with his family. His son has dual citizenship."​

'He's not an assassin': Father of Marin teen accused in Italy cop slaying speaks to media
 
Gabriel is trying to distance himself from Finnegan

"On Wednesday Natale-Hjorth asked his uncle to drop him off in Rome, after hearing from a friend, who turned out to be Elder, and wanting to show Elder around town, Natale said.

The father said he did not believe that his son and Elder were particularly close friends.

"I've never heard of Finn before,” Natale said. “He's not in his circle of friends.”

Natale-Hjorth was dropped off at the Meridian Hotel in Rome, where Finn's mother had booked a room for him using miles. That Wednesday night out was uneventful, Natale said, adding that the two teens stayed for two nights at Elder's hotel."​

Inside the prison where 2 US teens accused of killing Italian officer are being held
 
American teen's lawyer in Italy drops bid for release (with clip)

Sep 7, 2019

"The lawyer for one of two American teenagers being held in the slaying of an Italian police officer said Saturday that he has dropped a request for his client to be released.

Finnegan Lee Elder's lawyer, Renato Borzone, said in a statement that the defense still needs more time to get a full picture of what happened. He added that he is still working to clarify "key passages" in the investigation.

Elder and his friend, Gabriel Natale-Hjorth who is also in custody, were jailed in Rome in July as authorities investigate their alleged roles in the fatal stabbing of Italian police officer Mario Cerciello Rega. Italian prosecutors say Elder confessed knifing the officer during a scuffle.

A hearing on Natale-Hjorth's petition for release will be held on Sept. 16...."

US lawyer drops call for release in Italian officer slain case

190727080307-mario-rega-cerciello-exlarge-169.jpg

(Mario Cerciello Rega)
 
Cerciello colleague probed
A formality say military prosecutors

09 September 2019

"(ANSA) - Rome, September 9 - A Carabiniere whose colleague was stabbed to death by an American man after a mix-up over a drugs deal in Rome in late July has been placed under investigation for not bringing his service revolver to the meeting with the two young Americans, military prosecutors said Monday.

Andrea Varriale, who was with Mario Rega Cerciello on the night he was killed, is being probed for "failure to carry out his duties", in what prosecutors said was a formality.

Both officers were therefore without their guns when Cerciello was allegedly stabbed eleven times by 19-year-old Finnegan Lee Elder.

Elder has confessed to stabbing Cerciello Rega while his friend, Gabriel Christian Natale-Hjorth, 18, assaulted Varriale at the end of a chain of events sparked by a drugs deal that went wrong. Both Americans have filed to be released.

A ruling is expected later this month."

Cerciello colleague probed - English
 
YESorNO said:
Elder has confessed to stabbing Cerciello Rega while his friend, Gabriel Christian Natale-Hjorth, 18, assaulted Varriale at the end of a chain of events sparked by a drugs deal that went wrong. Both Americans have filed to be released.
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Why the hell are they filing to be released?!? Especially the one who has admitted stabbing Rega to death. I hope he's not released for a LONG time. Annoyed.
 
I really hope both of them will get life in prison. Unfortunately Italy does not have death penalty nor LWOP but their "ergastolo" isn't bad anyways...
Plus Italian prisons are (at least most of them) overcrowded...
I think Elder and Hjorth are gonna have some fun over there :cool:
 
Autopsy reveals Italian cop killed during confrontation with two American teens was stabbed with so 'much violence' that the hilt of the seven-inch knife left bruises on his skin

13 September 2019

"Autopsy report of Mario Cerciello Rega reveals he was stabbed 11 times

Rega bled to death on the streets of Rome in the early morning hours of July 26

American teens Finnegan Elder and Gabriel Natale-Hjorth are charged in slay

Prosecutors believe the murder occurred in during a botched drug deal ...

Several of Cerciello Rega's major organs were punctured in the attack, including both lungs, the autopsy shows, saying he was stabbed with 'much violence'. ...

A hearing on Natale-Hjorth's petition for release will be held on September 16."

Autopsy reveals grisly details of Italian cop slain in confrontation with American teens | Daily Mail Online
-----

Graphic details emerge from autopsy of Italian police officer stabbed by US teens

September 13, 2019

"An undercover Italian cop who was fatally stabbed in a scuffle with two American teens suffered wounds so deep that the base of the 7-inch blade left imprints on his skin, according to a new report.

Mario Cerciello Rega, 35, a deputy brigadier in the Carabinieri paramilitary police force, bled to death after being stabbed 11 times on the streets of Rome on July 26.

The officer’s wounds penetrated major organs, including both lungs, according to an autopsy report obtained by ABC News....

Since there were no frontal injuries on Cerciello Rega’s thorax and abdomen, the coroner concluded that he had been standing very close to the attacker, ABC News reported.

There also were no stabbing injuries on the officer’s body and only one wound that could be classified as defensive, caused by opposing an upper arm or stopping a blow, the report said.

Elder’s defense attorney claimed that the autopsy contradicts the allegation by police that the teens attacked the cops first.

“The autopsy stab wounds don’t support an immediate attack,” Craig Peters told San Francisco ABC station KGO-TV. “There’s no stab wounds on the front of Cerciello’s body.”..."

https://nypost.com/2019/09/13/graph...f-italian-police-officer-stabbed-by-us-teens/

italy-stabbing-157.jpg

(Carabinieri Col. Lorenzo D’Aloia shows a picture of knife reportedly used to stab and kill Carabinieri officer Mario Cerciello Rega.)

18453242-7461741-image-m-31_1568401019915.jpg

(Italian police officer Mario Cerciello Rega)
 
YESorNO said:
Autopsy reveals Italian cop killed during confrontation with two American teens was stabbed with so 'much violence' that the hilt of the seven-inch knife left bruises on his skin

13 September 2019

"Autopsy report of Mario Cerciello Rega reveals he was stabbed 11 times

Rega bled to death on the streets of Rome in the early morning hours of July 26

American teens Finnegan Elder and Gabriel Natale-Hjorth are charged in slay

Prosecutors believe the murder occurred in during a botched drug deal ...

Several of Cerciello Rega's major organs were punctured in the attack, including both lungs, the autopsy shows, saying he was stabbed with 'much violence'. ...

A hearing on Natale-Hjorth's petition for release will be held on September 16."

Autopsy reveals grisly details of Italian cop slain in confrontation with American teens | Daily Mail Online
-----

Graphic details emerge from autopsy of Italian police officer stabbed by US teens

September 13, 2019

"An undercover Italian cop who was fatally stabbed in a scuffle with two American teens suffered wounds so deep that the base of the 7-inch blade left imprints on his skin, according to a new report.

Mario Cerciello Rega, 35, a deputy brigadier in the Carabinieri paramilitary police force, bled to death after being stabbed 11 times on the streets of Rome on July 26.

The officer’s wounds penetrated major organs, including both lungs, according to an autopsy report obtained by ABC News....

Since there were no frontal injuries on Cerciello Rega’s thorax and abdomen, the coroner concluded that he had been standing very close to the attacker, ABC News reported.

There also were no stabbing injuries on the officer’s body and only one wound that could be classified as defensive, caused by opposing an upper arm or stopping a blow, the report said.

Elder’s defense attorney claimed that the autopsy contradicts the allegation by police that the teens attacked the cops first.

“The autopsy stab wounds don’t support an immediate attack,” Craig Peters told San Francisco ABC station KGO-TV. “There’s no stab wounds on the front of Cerciello’s body.”..."

https://nypost.com/2019/09/13/graph...f-italian-police-officer-stabbed-by-us-teens/

italy-stabbing-157.jpg

(Carabinieri Col. Lorenzo D’Aloia shows a picture of knife reportedly used to stab and kill Carabinieri officer Mario Cerciello Rega.)

18453242-7461741-image-m-31_1568401019915.jpg

(Italian police officer Mario Cerciello Rega)
Click to expand...
Maybe I'm being stupid here, but why do stab wounds to the back indicate who attacked who first?

If anything it looks even more cowardly to me.
 
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