TX - Former Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger, indicted for Murder of Botham Shem Jean #5

[SoCalDavidS]

EVERY one of your statements will be contested in court. And if someone was in my house, and not responding, I would shoot to kill, and I would be justified in doing so. I think some sleuthers are missing the point: reality is not so much of import as Amber's PERCEPTION of reality. In her mind, she was defending herself and her castle. "error of fact" ...Murder? No. Manslaughter? Possibly. I'm not downplaying the tragic loss of Botham's life, but we need to see the "whole picture" and put away the pitchforks and hoods. The Mob Mentality needs to go.

Assuming there is nothing that indicates this was an intentional shooting, it is still 100% 2nd Degree Manslaughter.

Perception of reality? How is that relevant? She discharged her weapon negligently, so what if it was a mistake?

The only reason this case is even of interest is that she is a cop. Had this involved a regular citizen, they would be convicted of 2nd degree MS in an open and shut case. Can you imagine an ordinary person justifying the killing of someone in their own home, by claiming they made a mistake?

 

[SoCalDavidS]

Blink....Blink....Blink.....Smirk.....Blink....Blink...Mouth Twitch....Tongue.....Blink....Blink....

 

[Lillymac]

I would vote for manslaughter and not murder right now.

Jmo

I would have voted for manslaughter from the very beginning. jmo

 

[Wishbone]

EVERY one of your statements will be contested in court. And if someone was in my house, and not responding, I would shoot to kill, and I would be justified in doing so. I think some sleuthers are missing the point: reality is not so much of import as Amber's PERCEPTION of reality. In her mind, she was defending herself and her castle. "error of fact" ...Murder? No. Manslaughter? Possibly. I'm not downplaying the tragic loss of Botham's life, but we need to see the "whole picture" and put away the pitchforks and hoods. The Mob Mentality needs to go.

Criminally Negligent Homicide in the least. No getting around it IMO. It was not her apartment and she had no right to be there or to shoot the man that actually lived there. In Texas, the punishment for negligent homicide ranges from 180 days up to 2 years in state jail and a fine, to probation and community service She could also face an independent civil lawsuit for causing the death of another person. She can say good bye to whatever assets she has.

 

[Lillymac]

Assuming there is nothing that indicates this was an intentional shooting, it is still 100% 2nd Degree Manslaughter.

Perception of reality? How is that relevant? She discharged her weapon negligently, so what if it was a mistake?

The only reason this case is even of interest is that she is a cop. Had this involved a regular citizen, they would be convicted of 2nd degree MS in an open and shut case. Can you imagine an ordinary person justifying the killing of someone in their own home, by claiming they made a mistake?

Partially true but brought out constantly in the media and else where, to cause bias is the fact that she's white and he's black. This cannot be denied.

 

[BeachSky]

Rut-row
Dude wishes he was anywhere but on the stand IMO

 

[SoCalDavidS]

Partially true but brought out constantly in the media and else where, to cause bias is the fact that she's white and he's black. This cannot be denied.

While that's true, it should be irrelevant. Personally, I don't care whether the shooter was white or black, or even that they are a cop. I only care that what they did IS a crime, and 2nd Degree Manslaughter at the very least.

 

[CrimeDawg123]

Assuming there is nothing that indicates this was an intentional shooting, it is still 100% 2nd Degree Manslaughter.

Perception of reality? How is that relevant? She discharged her weapon negligently, so what if it was a mistake?

The only reason this case is even of interest is that she is a cop. Had this involved a regular citizen, they would be convicted of 2nd degree MS in an open and shut case. Can you imagine an ordinary person justifying the killing of someone in their own home, by claiming they made a mistake?

What statute are referencing re 2nd degree manslaughter?

 

[MsFacetious]

BBM. The irony of your comment is not lost. Can you show me where the law talks about her perception?

What about Botham’s perception? What if he had been carrying a gun? What if HE had fired first at the intruder?!

His perception of danger wouldn’t have mattered at all. He would have been arrested immediately. No doubt.

If a 25 year old guy perceives a girl as 19 and she’s 15, that isn’t a defense.
If someone perceives they are sober and cause an accident, that isn’t a defense.
It certainly shouldn’t be in a case where a life was lost.

 

[MsFacetious]

What statute are referencing re 2nd degree manslaughter?

Ditto, Texas laws are very different.

 

[Hraefn]

EVERY one of your statements will be contested in court. And if someone was in my house, and not responding, I would shoot to kill, and I would be justified in doing so. I think some sleuthers are missing the point: reality is not so much of import as Amber's PERCEPTION of reality. In her mind, she was defending herself and her castle. "error of fact" ...Murder? No. Manslaughter? Possibly. I'm not downplaying the tragic loss of Botham's life, but we need to see the "whole picture" and put away the pitchforks and hoods. The Mob Mentality needs to go.

The standard of review for a mistake of fact is an objectively reasonable standard. It doesn't matter what she herself subjectively perceived, it matters whether an objectively reasonable person would have or could have perceived the same.

 

[Hraefn]

Criminally Negligent Homicide in the least. No getting around it IMO. It was not her apartment and she had no right to be there or to shoot the man that actually lived there. In Texas, the punishment for negligent homicide ranges from 180 days up to 2 years in state jail and a fine, to probation and community service She could also face an independent civil lawsuit for causing the death of another person. She can say good bye to whatever assets she has.

AFAIK Jean's family has filed a civil lawsuit.

 

[Jax49]

Judge's last comment was to the prosecution regarding the gag order. Directive to make sure "your boss knows the gag order extends to him". (paraphrased)

ETA: After the jury was escorted out, of course.

edited for spelling

 

[CrimeDawg123]

What a day!

 

[mickey2942]

AFAIK Jean's family has filed a civil lawsuit.

Money won't bring back Botham Jean. And even if they win the lawsuit, the question is, did AG follow correct procedures? I don't think so, as an officer, she should have called for backup, unless in imminent danger.

Not so sure that the civil lawsuit against Dallas PD will be a slam dunk.

 

[Lillymac]

While that's true, it should be irrelevant. Personally, I don't care whether the shooter was white or black, or even that they are a cop. I only care that what they did IS a crime, and 2nd Degree Manslaughter at the very least.

I was just pointing out that it wasn't all about her being a police officer.

 

[mickey2942]

The standard of review for a mistake of fact is an objectively reasonable standard. It doesn't matter what she herself subjectively perceived, it matters whether an objectively reasonable person would have or could have perceived the same.

<modsnip - off topic>

Seriously, I just don't understand how someone who makes an error like this, holds down a job. How many times has she done other "mistakes of fact"? The only difference here is that she killed someone. Does she have some sort of attention Deficit disorder?

 

[Hraefn]

They are finished for the day.

I listened to most of Martin Rivera's (AG's partner) testimony.

He did claim that their intimate relationship ended in 2017, but he was estimating. The prosecution showed messages from Feb. 2018 and of course Sept. 6, 2018. He admitted those messages had sexual content.

He said the messaging Sept. 6 was flirting but they had no plans to meet up. He had picked up food to go, headed home, and his phone was in his bedroom while he was in another room after their phone call. When he saw the messages and missed calls from AG he called her but it was a brief phone call. He perceived her messages including "I need you hurry" and "I *advertiser censored**ed up" in conjunction with a few missed calls as indicating an emergency or something bad had happened.

He also testified lengthly about the work day on Sept. 6th, nothing really stood out. They had made an arrest or multiple arrests in an aggravated robbery case they had been working. He claims the 16 min. phone call from when she left work (and he left the restaurant) until she got to the parking garage (and he either got home or was heading home) as a work discussion about whether the suspects had confessed. He did not know why she pulled off at some point during the phone call. He maintained they had no plans to meet up and that he had never been to that apartment complex.

AG had requested Sept. 7th off work, Rivera had not.

Rivera testified that he thought 16 mins was approximately how long most of their calls were, the state said most of their calls were actually 1-2 mins. Rivera was surprised by that and said she was his go-to phone call for his drive to and from the gym.

Rivera had deleted the text messages with AG from his phone as well. He said he did so because he did not like being reminded of that night and the events and that he just does not routinely keep text messages on his phone. The state did get him to admit that he deleted them after he knew the context of the messages involved a shooting and that AG would be investigated for it.

I'm trying to remember any other tidbits and may have more but that's all I recall for now.

 

[Lillymac]

White/black justice has a very ugly history in Texas and most of the US. Can we not pretend its not relevant?

Black white, brown white, black black, etc. It's all bad everywhere. But this case the media has been over the top in their headlines, story lines to point out she is white and he was black. That's what I was referring to.

 

[BeachSky]

Kwinky dink how Martin Rivera deleted
and distanced himself from that day.


MOO