Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #47

[Sillybilly]

sorry off topic but frustratingly why when i answer posts sometimes they disappear into the original file and have to be expanded to read instead of standing alone with the original post above? is it the difference between quote or reply function?

Just checked your last post and you are replying within the quoted post, instead of outside the html tags. Make sure when you start typing your response that you start it AFTER the last html tag that says [ /QUOTE ] and make sure you don't touch those lovely square brackets that contain the html tags.

That should solve your problem. If not, private message me and we'll take it from there.

 

[Cleaver Greene]

I think in legal terms PS would be referred to as a non credible witness? Especially if he can't keep his story straight, and maybe that needs further investigation as to why? IMO.

Possibly. In criminal trials a side can’t keep following all leads. If a witness isn’t credible, the Judge can be asked to make an adverse credit finding about a witness and draw an inference from that. That could be that the witness is lying because they are guilty or to protect a friend etc. if there is a medical reason, then that witness probably shouldn’t be called. If parties were allowed to follow up on every inconsistency, a trial would never end. It’s called “collateral evidence on credit” if anyone wants to look into it a bit more.

But in an Inquest, the Coroner could investigate a bit more. Normal rules of evidence don’t apply at Inquests.

 

[JLZ]

Possibly. In criminal trials a side can’t keep following all leads. If a witness isn’t credible, the Judge can be asked to make an adverse credit finding about a witness and draw an inference from that. That could be that the witness is lying because they are guilty or to protect a friend etc. if there is a medical reason, then that witness probably shouldn’t be called. If parties were allowed to follow up on every inconsistency, a trial would never end. It’s called “collateral evidence on credit” if anyone wants to look into it a bit more.

But in an Inquest, the Coroner could investigate a bit more. Normal rules of evidence don’t apply at Inquests.

And if the judge does make an adverse credit finding, what are the consequences of that? What happens, practically, at the trial?

 

[SouthAussie]

Possibly. In criminal trials a side can’t keep following all leads. If a witness isn’t credible, the Judge can be asked to make an adverse credit finding about a witness and draw an inference from that. That could be that the witness is lying because they are guilty or to protect a friend etc. if there is a medical reason, then that witness probably shouldn’t be called. If parties were allowed to follow up on every inconsistency, a trial would never end. It’s called “collateral evidence on credit” if anyone wants to look into it a bit more.

But in an Inquest, the Coroner could investigate a bit more. Normal rules of evidence don’t apply at Inquests.

Yes, I am interested in this, as well. IIRC after the inquest into Matthew Leveson's death, the Coroner found that Atkins lied something like 72 times and he faced charges of perjury ... until he decided to give up the location of Matthew's remains.


"I regret that my findings cannot meet the family's hopes and expectations," deputy state coroner Elaine Truscott.
"I do not accept Mr Atkins is a person of truth."
The findings included 72 references to lies.
However, the coroner said there was insufficient evidence to "positively determine — to the requisite standard — how or why Matt died".
Lies told by boyfriend but no cause of death found in Leveson inquest, coroner finds

 

[Karinna]

Possibly. In criminal trials a side can’t keep following all leads. If a witness isn’t credible, the Judge can be asked to make an adverse credit finding about a witness and draw an inference from that. That could be that the witness is lying because they are guilty or to protect a friend etc. if there is a medical reason, then that witness probably shouldn’t be called. If parties were allowed to follow up on every inconsistency, a trial would never end. It’s called “collateral evidence on credit” if anyone wants to look into it a bit more.

But in an Inquest, the Coroner could investigate a bit more. Normal rules of evidence don’t apply at Inquests.

Thankyou for explaining the process and how it all works.

 

[SouthAussie]

It’s called “collateral evidence on credit” if anyone wants to look into it a bit more.

But in an Inquest, the Coroner could investigate a bit more. Normal rules of evidence don’t apply at Inquests.

And if the judge does make an adverse credit finding, what are the consequences of that? What happens, practically, at the trial?

There is a document here that speaks to representing inquest lawyers a little of credit and of collateral matters at an inquest.
Items 27 - 29.

Basically says that

"Matters going to credit alone may or may not be admissible upon, in the author’s experience, similar bases to those applying in an adversarial proceeding in a court. Of course, the ethical rules binding advocates will apply so one must be careful about putting matters without any factual foundation."

"His Honour said that “personal reputation has now been established as an interest which should not be damaged by an official finding after a statutory inquiry unless the person whose reputation is likely to be affected has had a full and fair opportunity to show why the finding should not be made”

"...... not every criticism or adverse comment on collateral matters which might require the rules of procedural fairness to be applied. One must look at whether there is a real potential to prejudice the plaintiff’s reputation and/business interests and whether it would be done in such a way that would become a matter of public interest and concern".

http://campbellbridge.com/wp-conten...TS-AT-CORONIAL-INQUESTS-NSW-BAR-June-2011.pdf

 

[Lemony]

I recognise what you are saying SLouTH... He could well have dementia but I'm also wondering if his behavior could fit the classification of "sneaky complex offender"?

I'm also curious to know if he has had other run ins with the law - in addition to the stalking of the post lady. I'm not sure that we see the full picture with him.

"It’s believed he has previously been questioned by the strike force about his history with police, including the alleged stalking, but he was not questioned about the incidents in open court."
Revealed: Man Questioned Over William Tyrrell Breached Restraining Order

I’m curious to know if there is anything else in his history too.

According to information in this article the average stalker’s age is mid thirties. Based on that it would seem that a man engaging in stalking behaviour at Savages's age is more on the unusual side.
Truth behind Aussie stalkers

PS behaviour allegedly included unwanted romantic advances that became quite obsessive, approaching the postal worker on the street, knowing personal details about her that she had never revealed to him. It became so bad the postal worker was granted an AVO against him and yet when PS is asked about it he says it was all a misunderstanding and he denied stalking her.

I wonder what his wife thought about the alleged stalking and whether PS was able to pass it off as a misunderstanding to her.

 

[Ms Kite]

I have looked into Laura Beacroft a little more. As well as working in the Child Abuse and Sex Crimes Squad before joining William's case, and as well as being a police forensic profiler, in 2012 she worked with the Australian Institute of Criminology as Research Manager for the Trafficking in Persons Research Program.

This link can be input and a pdf file will open:
View attachment 206481

Also referenced here in this article about 'human trafficking and slavery offenders in Australia'
Human trafficking and slavery offenders in Australia

[/QUOTE]
Thanks SA. I found this to be very interesting.

 

[SouthAussie]

Thanks SA. I found this to be very interesting.

Yes, I did too. And I am happy that someone else did.
(Though not so happy about the subject matter.)

Makes me wonder if the trafficking in persons experience that Laura has is relevant to this case. In conjunction with the Crime Stoppers alerts that went out for William in 26 countries.

I have been wondering if the description of the pale blonde woman in the Land Cruiser matches a known-to-sex-crimes-squad child snatcher who then sells/gives children to others.

Or if some other person related to this case has been known to do that in the past.
I remember that among Spedding's historical accusations were accusations of passing the children around to other men.

 

[Ms Kite]

Yes, I did too. And I am happy that someone else did.
(Though not so happy about the subject matter.)

Makes me wonder if the trafficking in persons experience that Laura has is relevant to this case. In conjunction with the Crime Stoppers alerts that went out for William in 26 countries.

I have been wondering if the description of the pale blonde woman in the Land Cruiser matches a known-to-sex-crimes-squad child snatcher who then sells/gives children to others.

Or if some other person related to this case has been known to do that in the past.
I remember that among Spedding's historical accusations were accusations of passing the children around to other men.

I was thinking along the same lines with regard to Laura's background...

I don't even want to think about the other things though

I still hope that if a blonde woman did take William that she did so for reasons not related to sex crimes.

 

[SouthAussie]

I was thinking along the same lines with regard to Laura's background...

I don't even want to think about the other things though

I still hope that if a blonde woman did take William that she did so for reasons not related to sex crimes.

I know. We all hope that, that's for sure. It just is not looking that way, I'm afraid. Not judging by the types of people who have been looked at in this case, and the fact that Laura was also seconded from the sex crimes squad.

 

[Ms Kite]

I’m curious to know if there is anything else in his history too.

According to information in this article the average stalker’s age is mid thirties. Based on that it would seem that a man engaging in stalking behaviour at Savages's age is more on the unusual side.
Truth behind Aussie stalkers

PS behaviour allegedly included unwanted romantic advances that became quite obsessive, approaching the postal worker on the street, knowing personal details about her that she had never revealed to him. It became so bad the postal worker was granted an AVO against him and yet when PS is asked about it he says it was all a misunderstanding and he denied stalking her.

I wonder what his wife thought about the alleged stalking and whether PS was able to pass it off as a misunderstanding to her.

I can only imagine that it would've been a humiliating experience for Heather. I've also wondered if the allegations damaged their relationship.

 

[SouthAussie]

<RSBM>
I wonder what his wife thought about the alleged stalking and whether PS was able to pass it off as a misunderstanding to her.

I can only imagine that it would've been a humiliating experience for Heather. I've also wondered if the allegations damaged their relationship.

Anyone else wonder if FGM had any involvement in this matter? As in, intervening on the postal worker's behalf or witnessing the stalking and verifying that for the police, or even telling Heather that she had seen it happening herself?

 

[Warshawski]

This is what he said BBM. Everywhere he might have gone. Same as wandering IMO.
(quote)
He looked under houses, external fences, pits, drains and sheds.

"Everything, everywhere he might have gone," he said.

https://7news.com.au/news/nsw/willi...ys-he-searched-everywhere-for-the-boy-c-26304

As per here, not considered to be a wander: 'Evidence will show William Tyrrell 'was likely taken', inquest told

However, IMO, in such circumstances you'd still be looking everywhere possible.

 

[Warshawski]

I have looked into Laura Beacroft a little more. As well as working in the Child Abuse and Sex Crimes Squad before joining William's case, and as well as being a police forensic profiler, in 2012 she worked with the Australian Institute of Criminology as Research Manager for the Trafficking in Persons Research Program.

This link can be input and a pdf file will open:
View attachment 206481

Also referenced here in this article about 'human trafficking and slavery offenders in Australia'
Human trafficking and slavery offenders in Australia

I wonder if she was seconded due to this experience & that's what was being considered occurred at that stage ( Interpol alerts etc)

 

[SouthAussie]

As per here, not considered to be a wander: 'Evidence will show William Tyrrell 'was likely taken', inquest told

However, IMO, in such circumstances you'd still be looking everywhere possible.

Yes. Many victims are found close by to where they were last seen. They don't have to have wandered to where they are found by themselves.

FM said William did not wander, FD said William did not wander, their early public advocate said William did not wander.

 

[Cleaver Greene]

And if the judge does make an adverse credit finding, what are the consequences of that? What happens, practically, at the trial?

The judge would disregard the evidence of that witness.

 

[deugirtni]

I think it was in the Lia Harris tweets when KC was on the stand. That is the only place I remember reading it.

Just catching up, sorry if now redundant, but these are LH's tweets in regard to KC (read in reverse order, bottom to top):

Lia Harris
@LiaJHarris
·
17h
The coroner told the court she understood it “will be frustrating for some” but there are “reasons for it”. It will resume in Taree on March 9, 2020. @10NewsFirst @10Daily

Lia Harris
@LiaJHarris
·
17h
Counsel assisting Gerard Craddock SC just told the court the inquest will be suspended now and resume in March 2020... taking a six month break between hearings. @10NewsFirst

Lia Harris
@LiaJHarris
·
17h
She told the court Jones left the house in the morning and returned that afternoon “drunker than usual”. She said they later found out he was charged with child sex offences. @10NewsFirst @10Daily


Lia Harris
@LiaJHarris
·
17h
She and her partner, Mr Jones’ daughter, were staying at the Jones house in Wauchope on September 12, 2014. @10NewsFirst @10Daily

Lia Harris
@LiaJHarris
·
17h
Katrina Cherry is now testifying. She is a relative of person of interest Tony Jones. @10NewsFirst @10Daily

 

[deugirtni]

.
No mention of dementia anywhere at the inquest.


"So is your memory cloudy?" Mr Craddock said.
"Yes it is," Mr Savage replied.
William Tyrrell inquest witness Paul Savage grilled in court after changing his story

He also agreed with his lawyer Chris McGorey that compared with five years ago, his memory was “not real good”.
William Tyrrell neighbour breaks down at inquest

It's possible that PS's mental/health status may have a suppression order?

 

[Cleaver Greene]

It's possible that PS's mental/health status may have a suppression order?

I just don’t think so. Law is so difficult to explain, let alone in a few short sentences, so I can’t explain what would be subject to a suppression order. But the health of a POI wouldn’t be.