GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #72

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I agree. IMO, I think he also wants to stick the knife in his mother. Perhaps Ma recognized there was something very wrong with her little Doug-Doug when he was a kid and that's why she was always asking him what he was thinking about? Afraid he was perhaps thinking about killing her?

Imo if it hadn’t been shanann and the girls it would have been his mother or eventually NK. How long would it have been before he started fantasising about killing her, especially if he had got away with his evil crime and started a life with NK. How long until she would become suspicious of his entire family disappearing and if he’s sick enough to murder his own children then killing NK would have been no biggie to him
He’s a narcissist and imo he experienced ‘splitting’ ie black and white thinking. He could only think the worst of his wife and children yet saw NK as perfect and superior to everyone else. But narcissists can change their thoughts about people in a split second, eventually I do believe once the rush of being with NK wore off he’d have likely cheated on her, found someone even ‘better’.
The awful thing, is that we know he’s got pictures of the family he murdered in his cell yet because of his ‘good vs evil’ thinking, he’s probably still sat there trying to pick faults in his head with his wife and who she was as a person. He will still be trying to justify his actions to himself, so the nightmares don’t haunt him. Because he’s evil he will not let himself feel bad about what he did. He will bargain with himself into believing it was still for the best because he has ‘found god’.
Vom
 
We know he had this planned from at least the 6th because wasn’t that when he wrote the letter saying if anyone harms him look at his wife? Also gets me how he says he would ‘never harm his children’ that, for me proves that Bella and Cece were always going to die, he didn’t kill them just because they walked in and saw, he was always going to kill his little girls from the minute this plan was thought about.
 
Christopher Watts is enjoying himself.

He gets a real kick out of writing these letters. What possible reason other than to stick the knife in further to her family.

However, I agree with what someone posted up thread, is this also taunting his mother?? Now saying he killed the girls twice (total rubbish), she is the only person convinced he didn't, he wants to make absolutely sure she knows he did. Why, I don't know, he's a psychopath.

It's possible he did. He said something in an interview about how the girls "woke back up". And it explains why the girls huddled silently together in the truck during the drive. Of course so does having mommy's dead body at their feet.

But I believe it's possible.
 
It's possible he did. He said something in an interview about how the girls "woke back up". And it explains why the girls huddled silently together in the truck during the drive. Of course so does having mommy's dead body at their feet.

But I believe it's possible.
I wonder if "woke back up" actually referred to some drug he had given them, from which they awoke as it wasn't strong enough. Something that would not stand out in the tox. analysis if there is such a thing.
Hard to believe, for me, that he "smothered" them and they both got up a few minutes afterwards. Remember in one of his other interviews he described lifting one of their arms and it fell back down, she was dead dead dead (Cece after SW supposedly killed her). (I think it was the first confession interviews when he was rationalizing not calling 911) But it could have been Bella that woke back up, I think he killed Cece in the house. He never says much about her. During another interview, Tammy asked him if he went in to look at Bella who was supposedly dead and spread out as seen on the baby monitor (after he killed SW during her murdering Cece), and he hurriedly said, yes, but it was something he had forgotten to weave into his story. So, IMO, he killed Cece once, Bella was still alive, SW dead, and he killed Bella at the tanks. Probably no smothering 2 times of anyone by him.
 
I wonder if "woke back up" actually referred to some drug he had given them, from which they awoke as it wasn't strong enough. Something that would not stand out in the tox. analysis if there is such a thing.
Hard to believe, for me, that he "smothered" them and they both got up a few minutes afterwards. Remember in one of his other interviews he described lifting one of their arms and it fell back down, she was dead dead dead (Cece after SW supposedly killed her). (I think it was the first confession interviews when he was rationalizing not calling 911) But it could have been Bella that woke back up, I think he killed Cece in the house. He never says much about her. During another interview, Tammy asked him if he went in to look at Bella who was supposedly dead and spread out as seen on the baby monitor (after he killed SW during her murdering Cece), and he hurriedly said, yes, but it was something he had forgotten to mention. So, IMO, he killed Cece once, Bella was still alive, SW dead, and he killed Bella at the tanks. Probably no smothering 2 times of anyone by him.

That's possible too. I doubt we can ever determine whether he's telling the truth.
 
That's possible too. I doubt we can ever determine whether he's telling the truth.
I believe even less of his current batch of confessions with Cadle than I did his confession on Feb 18 that we heard in March. There was a lot of emotion then, I think it's hard to fake the emotional voice when he described killing Bella. But now, he didn't want to talk on the phone or, IIRC be recorded, he wanted to describe it all in writing to maintain complete control and that no emotion would have to be controlled, if emotion still resides in him. I predict he runs circles around Cadle.
 
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Yes. I don't think we will ever know the real version. He is just muddying the waters now, on purpose. IMO
If his only stipulation to agreeing to the book was that she include his “testimony to god” or whatever he meant and his path to redemption, I do believe this may be more of the truth coming out. Of course we can never know - but much of what he is adding now only differs as to the malice aforethought - showing this was no rage killing. I am not saying I buy it word for word, but I am inclined to believe he just was not ready to cop to anything but a spur of the moment rage killing before. Regardless, I have always thought he preplanned this (poorly).... and so I am inclined to believe much of it because it fits my own view, but also because his prior lies fit with his incredibly strong life code to be seen as a good guy (perhaps learned early on because if he grew up a sociopath he might have quickly realized he cannot afford people to see how he really thinks and just took on a simple good guy persona to cope in the world?). Hence, to me it makes sense to largely come clean now in an effort to reclaim the good guy persona bc “demons made him do it” and he is “redeemed” now so he is back to the good old Chris (his attempt at reclaiming being a good guy to the world - the only code he ever lived by it seems in lieu of real love, hate, emotions, feelings) or he actually believes in his newfound religious zeal. IMO.
 
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I'm replying to myself to update everyone: I received a response from Amazon customer service about 4 hours after I emailed them. They thanked me and said they would pass my concerns about the book along to management.

ETA: I didn't know CW's mother had a book out. Now I'm going to see about emailing Amazon about that.

ETA2: I checked on Amazon and Cindy Watts' book is not listed (that I could find anyway).

There's a lot to be learned from what psychopaths have to say and it could be life saving for someone trying to navigate what they think is just a difficult relationship. Censorship is bad.
 
If his only stipulation to agreeing to the book was that she include his “testimony to god” or whatever he meant and his path to redemption, I do believe this may be more of the truth coming out. Of course we can never know - but much of what he is adding now only differs as to the malice aforethought - showing this was no rage killing. I am not saying I buy it word for word, but I am inclined to believe he just was not ready to cop to anything but a spur of the moment rage killing before. Regardless, I have always thought he preplanned this (poorly).... and so I am inclined to believe much of it because it fits my own view, but also because his prior lies fit with his incredibly strong life code to be seen as a good guy (perhaps learned early on because if he grew up a sociopath he might have quickly realized he cannot afford people to see how he really thinks and just took on a simple good guy persona to cope in the world?). Hence, to me it makes sense to largely come clean now in an effort to reclaim the good guy persona bc “demons made him do it” and he is “redeemed” now so he is back to the good old Chris (his attempt at reclaiming being a good guy to the world - the only code he ever lived by it seems in lieu of real love, hate, emotions, feelings) or he actually believes in his newfound religious zeal. IMO.

And that sort of mirrors the other Chris who murdered his whole family. Christian Longo. At first he blamed his wife just like Watts did. Then he admitted to killing everyone. Eventually he described more of what he did and it got worse each time. And still the reporter who he pretended to be when on the run who he developed a rapport with said he likely is still holding back much of the horror and evil.

Reading about that guy and how he was also a great dad and talked about how it upset him to see his kids hurt before he killed them but then how he was able to coldly throw two of them alive into the cold bay to drown, and ran off after that with no remorse....and how he was confused himself about how he could do and feel the way he did- super interesting and a lot of parallels.

These people know something is wrong with them. They know they're not like others. But I think they want to understand. Yet the also know that the things they've done and the way they feel sets them apart and they still worry about what people think. So they hold things back until bit by bit they become more comfortable, especially with a sympathetic and good listener and they reveal more and more.

The Pretender: The case of Christian Longo
 
There's a lot to be learned from what psychopaths have to say and it could be life saving for someone trying to navigate what they think is just a difficult relationship. Censorship is bad.

I agree. Much of what Has come out about this guy - his relationship with his family/mother, the type of mother he had, his premeditation, etc., was stuff I guessed early on in this case, based mostly on other, previous cases with similar patterns.

Imagine what the pros do with this information. I actually think we don't have to imagine. They broke CW with incredible rapidity. And that was from profiling and learning from others like him.

So I'm with you. I want to know.

But his crazy mother? I don't want to hear one self-serving word from her or her other progeny.
 
I am further disgusted by the stories coming out on the Daily Mail online how dare he do this to the memory of his daughters and ex-wife. He is a very sick and evil individual but we already knew that. This is all a sick game to him in my opinion and it will keep on going unfortunately.

I don’t know why the media is giving him the time of day but I guess they will post anything as long as it generates clicks. They have no morals or sense of decency whatsoever. I am not looking out for stories about him I just see the headlines when I go on the homepage and despair and become incensed.
 
I agree. Much of what Has come out about this guy - his relationship with his family/mother, the type of mother he had, his premeditation, etc., was stuff I guessed early on in this case, based mostly on other, previous cases with similar patterns.

Imagine what the pros do with this information. I actually think we don't have to imagine. They broke CW with incredible rapidity. And that was from profiling and learning from others like him.

So I'm with you. I want to know.

But his crazy mother? I don't want to hear one self-serving word from her or her other progeny.

My own deep dive into this case and CW was analyzing the psychology and personality dynamics. People with personality disorders don't change so it's important that the rest of us learn what we can about them and OURSELVES.

In all of the videos of Shannan and Chris I immediately saw a dysfunctional dynamic where he was a mere a prop in Shanann's script for what she was building/what she perceived to a desirable life. It was so obvious, to me. She was an amazing mother and also struck me as really in charge which can also mean controlling. IIRC, she texted a friend about that very characteristic of hers, shortly before he murdered all of them. Her comments in the text indicated it was something she was willing to work on but it was too late! Had she been able to see that in herself, sooner, (Man, know thyself!) and also see what a mousey, compliant man CW was, it might have dawned on her that theirs was a not the happy relationship that it appeared to be. That takes a lot of self introspection and a strong interest in psychology so those kinds of toxic dynamics can escape a lot us (myself included). My point being that I came to the conclusion that Shannan, who was flawed but otherwise intellectually and emotionally normal (as far as I could tell) is the only one who could have prevented what happened. By prevented, I mean recognized that CW wasn't right; was boiling with inner (misplaced) rage and resentment and it was directed at her, therefore DANGER, get a divorce, NOW. I don't want anyone to misconstrue what I'm saying. I am not blaming her. I'm saying she was unaware, totally into the kids, Thrive, Facebook, working her business hard but didn't look deeper at her husband and how they interacted. That takes communication, listening and sharply attuned observation (of self and others).

I know that's a lot (!!!) but can't help but wonder if it would have enabled her to SEE who Chris was (or wasn't in terms of her expectations and perceptions) and the danger that was looming. That's why I think it's so important to learn about people like CW or Longo or any of the personality disordered. Someone used the term "situational awareness" on the Amber Guyger thread. A lack of it can lead to disaster. Unfortunately, most people don't get into these subjects, at least very deeply, unless they've been harmed by these f'd up people. Then we go on research tangents, trying to figure out WTF happened and we learn. I have a friend (narc victim) who believes this stuff should be taught to children, like reading or any other critical skill for survival. I agree with her.

BTW, I also came to the conclusion that when CW killed Shannan he was symbolically killing Cindy. Poor Shannan just happened to be the one who he felt it was "safe" to take out that rage on but I know it existed long before he ever met her. The babies were nothing to him. They were just part of the role he played as Shannan's husband. When he was done with her, they were just excess baggage that had to go, too. If he and Shannan had divorced, he would have probably ended up killing NK - another woman with a strong personality with whom he would surely have been just as compliant, as he was with his mother.

So, yeah, I tend to agree with everyone wondering if his letters aren't his way of sticking it to his lying, manipulative, controlling mother.
 
My own deep dive into this case and CW was analyzing the psychology and personality dynamics. People with personality disorders don't change so it's important that the rest of us learn what we can about them and OURSELVES.

In all of the videos of Shannan and Chris I immediately saw a dysfunctional dynamic where he was a mere a prop in Shanann's script for what she was building/what she perceived to a desirable life. It was so obvious, to me. She was an amazing mother and also struck me as really in charge which can also mean controlling. IIRC, she texted a friend about that very characteristic of hers, shortly before he murdered all of them. Her comments in the text indicated it was something she was willing to work on but it was too late! Had she been able to see that in herself, sooner, (Man, know thyself!) and also see what a mousey, compliant man CW was, it might have dawned on her that theirs was a not the happy relationship that it appeared to be. That takes a lot of self introspection and a strong interest in psychology so those kinds of toxic dynamics can escape a lot us (myself included). My point being that I came to the conclusion that Shannan, who was flawed but otherwise intellectually and emotionally normal (as far as I could tell) is the only one who could have prevented what happened. By prevented, I mean recognized that CW wasn't right; was boiling with inner (misplaced) rage and resentment and it was directed at her, therefore DANGER, get a divorce, NOW. I don't want anyone to misconstrue what I'm saying. I am not blaming her. I'm saying she was unaware, totally into the kids, Thrive, Facebook, working her business hard but didn't look deeper at her husband and how they interacted. That takes communication, listening and sharply attuned observation (of self and others).

I know that's a lot (!!!) but can't help but wonder if it would have enabled her to SEE who Chris was (or wasn't in terms of her expectations and perceptions) and the danger that was looming. That's why I think it's so important to learn about people like CW or Longo or any of the personality disordered. Someone used the term "situational awareness" on the Amber Guyger thread. A lack of it can lead to disaster. Unfortunately, most people don't get into these subjects, at least very deeply, unless they've been harmed by these f'd up people. Then we go on research tangents, trying to figure out WTF happened and we learn. I have a friend (narc victim) who believes this stuff should be taught to children, like reading or any other critical skill for survival. I agree with her.

BTW, I also came to the conclusion that when CW killed Shannan he was symbolically killing Cindy. Poor Shannan just happened to be the one who he felt it was "safe" to take out that rage on but I know it existed long before he ever met her. The babies were nothing to him. They were just part of the role he played as Shannan's husband. When he was done with her, they were just excess baggage that had to go, too. If he and Shannan had divorced, he would have probably ended up killing NK - another woman with a strong personality with whom he would surely have been just as compliant, as he was with his mother.

So, yeah, I tend to agree with everyone wondering if his letters aren't his way of sticking it to his lying, manipulative, controlling mother.

Respectfully I actually disagree with a lot of what you've said here. I do agree he was symbolically killing his mother. I said early on I felt she annihilated his identity and due to the deep enmeshment of his family of origin, he didn't see his kids and wife as separate from himself (which, having an apparently narcissistic mother, means her) so he annihilated his family (and thereby annhilated his non-existent self and his mother).

But I very much disagree with most of the balance. Shanann could not have prevented the murder. There was no working on the marriage or herself as a means to prevent that psychopath from killing her and her girls.

His "mousiness" was not within her control. And if he was unhappy it was up to him to speak up, not up to her to know something was wrong and change herself.

I see nothing much wrong with Shanann. Of course not perfect but she didn't seem controlling to me. She had a strong personality and filled the void his annihilated soul created. Which is why he picked her. He had no identity so he liked women who had strong ones.

But no one could ever really make up for what he lacked.

Regardless, he didn't exhibit psychopathic behaviors, IMO. In fact that was discussed on here by one of our psych experts.

He exhibited nothing much until he annihilated his family.

But Shanann very much knew their marriage was in trouble. She discussed that a lot in text messages and other correspondence.

So? That couldn't have saved her and her kids' lives because no one can keep a marriage at a fever pitch at all times and someone like CW with an annihilated soul likely went through life feeling a lot of nothingness. So he would be prone to equating the heady excitement of a new sexual relationship with love and life. It would've obsessed him. Because it caused him to feel something. Something strong admidst years of gray blandness.

His marriage could've been perfect and never could have competed with that because no marriage can ever sustain that level of excitement. So he was obsessed.

And then, NK wanted a man who didn't have kids or baggage.

So even if Shanann had left him, he was still going to kill his wife and kids, IMO. Because NK was pressuring him not to have a family, as inexplicable as that is.

I believe it would have been impossible for Shanann to realize the danger he posed or signs that something that dark was within him, because the very thing about these types of family annihilators that is so insanely shocking to everyone is that: There. Are. No. Signs.

There are millions of quiet, unhappy men who let their wives run their lives, who sit in the shadows and don't express themselves and pretty much none of them do what CW did.

Most family annihilators in general have a history of mental illness or criminal records/domestic abuse histories. What sets apart a man like CW is there are no signs. There's nothing that could remotely have warned anyone who knew him, including his wife, that there was something that dangerous within him.

They're masters of the mask.

I believe this line of thinking (that had she just been more sensitive and self-reflective she would possibly be alive) comes from fear. She wasn't sensitive and self-reflective. She wasn't a good wife. So she got killed. But I'm sensitive and self-reflective.
I'm a good wife. So this won't happen to me.

Meh. I believe this can happen to anyone. It's rare but when it occurs it comes out of the blue and cannot typically be predicted nor stopped. Maybe a random sixth sense might help someone now and then but the inexplicable doesn't lend itself to protective measures.

The value of learning about these people is about solving crime. Based on studies this is too complex and the signs are too vague and too common to help prevent a family from being annihilated by this particular kind of family annihilator.
 
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