Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #114

[Boxer]

Forgive me for bringing up another case...but BG could have had a gun and not used it. Meaning, not fired it. Could have used it to intimidate qnd control only.

Zodiac Killer did this when he attacked a couple in broad daylight at a lake. Used the gun to control, but a knife to harm.

I think that is what happened.

 

[JnRyan]

As I've tried to visualize how this killer managed to kill 2 persons - i.e., control one while killing the other - I think of how many times this has happened in other crimes. For example, the Colonial Parkway Murders, the killer, if there was only one killer, managed to kill not one couple BUT FOUR couples. One couple has never been found, but of the other three only one couple were killed with a gun. The other two couples were stabbed and/or strangled. And with the exception of one person who was 14 ALL were adults, not middle school girls. Of course, these murders have never been solved so we don't know exactly how it was done and the murder scene is only known in one of the four killings.

So I know killers have done this many times, yet I'm at a loss as to just how this killer did it. To the best of my knowledge, no one heard screams so they were either restrained and gagged or the murders went down very quickly. Whether or not a gun was the murder weapon is not known since most in rural areas don't pay much attention to gun shots. (I know this from spending a lot of time in farm country in the Mid-West.)

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Duct tape or something makes sense. But dont disregard compliance. The girls could have remained quiet, simply complying, hoping/clinging to the idea they would be Ok if they did so.

He could have likely threatened one girls life to get the other to comply and to keep both silent.

Whatever he did, he is a sick a$$hole!
JMO

 

[ScumbagTrav]

He could have likely threatened one girls life to get the other to comply and to keep both silent.
Sick a$$hole!
JMO

Very well could have. Held one...held a gun at the other.

Zodiac even had one of his victims tie up the other one while he pointed his gun at them. Not saying BG did this...or even speculating he did....just pointing out an instance where one man controlled and attacked 2 (adult) victims. Abby and Libby, being young teens, would likely naturally comply to an adult...especially one armed with a weapon.

 

[Justice101]

These articles may clarify the situation. It does look like LE use them in certain situations. A double murder investigation would warrant that IMO.

Indiana State Police tracking cellphones — but won't say how or why

US cops point at cell towers and say: Give us every phone number that's touched that mast

Wow, that is a good development. Thanks!

 

[tresir2012]

Yes, Danny

The other thing I found interesting was that he said the only DNA found was touch DNA on the shoulder of a sweatshirt. And still they were not all that sure it is the killers DNA. So from that I gather it was Abby's sweatshirt as she was the only one I believe was wearing one and if there was only touch DNA on the shoulder....no SA..

As far as your line of thinking I am somewhat agreeing with you. How would LE know the time BG left the area. The only real way to know is either a really good witness or Libby's phone. Did BG try to disable the phone in some way and that phone when recovered showed a time stamp for this action? Was the phone recording throughout the assault?

I'm not following you on the BBR angle. BBR is on the other side of town. LE said the phone was found near the girls.

The only interview I can remember where the phone location is mentioned is Holeman and he just repeats what the interviewer says and he answers something like "yes in the general area". I don't remember anything more specific about the phone location being stated by LE. If anyone can remember another LE interview with a more exact phone location it would be good.

 

[tresir2012]

I had that thought at one time too and I guess it is still a possibility that he put on gloves at the last minute but in the video of BG you can clearly see he is not wearing gloves.

I thought his hands were not visible? Left hand in his Jean's pocket, right hand in his jacket pocket. No?

 

[FinePrint]

I thought his hands were not visible? Left hand in his Jean's pocket, right hand in his jacket pocket. No?

I can see his hands, bare skin

 

[FinePrint]

The only interview I can remember where the phone location is mentioned is Holeman and he just repeats what the interviewer says and he answers something like "yes in the general area". I don't remember anything more specific about the phone location being stated by LE. If anyone can remember another LE interview with a more exact phone location it would be good.

Yes. I've seen interviews several times were LE said the phone was found near the bodies. I'll try to find it later after work....

 

[Boxer]

The only interview I can remember where the phone location is mentioned is Holeman and he just repeats what the interviewer says and he answers something like "yes in the general area". I don't remember anything more specific about the phone location being stated by LE. If anyone can remember another LE interview with a more exact phone location it would be good.

MOO I think a local, left his own phone at home. Savvy on phones and didn't take his knowing the tracking risk, and didn't take Libby's, he just turned it off when it rang. Maybe smashed it or threw it in the creek.
MOO a young assailant, even a teen.
Having that kind of up to date phone tech was pretty advanced knowledge in 2017.
That Mckenzie Lueck killer in Utah thought he could turn off location services in his phone in 2019.

 

[tresir2012]

Yes. I've seen interviews several times were LE said the phone was found near the bodies. I'll try to find it later after work....

I'm not convinced the white patch above the brown thing is his hand though.

 

[NameUser]

I agree here. Gunshots wouldn’t perhaps be noticed but, like you, I don’t think a gun was fired or used to kill the girls.
One thing I’ve wondered about is nobody heard screams either. That is a fairly confined area with steep banks, you would think sound would not be lost in there. How did he keep them quiet? Especially once they got down the hill and realized without a doubt they were in grave danger. We have no information from the crime scene so who knows, but I wonder if he duct taped their mouths.

I have also thought about this and came up with these ideas

The crime took place around a bend with uneven terrain that could have dissipated any noise. Take that into account with the sound of the stream and a scream that is quickly silenced could have gone unnoticed.

I have not heard of them being bound at all, but also have no concrete information that they were not bound as well. I also think threat of harm may have kept the girls quite. (Scream and I will kill you)

I feel so bad for the girls when I think about this and the fear they must have felt. I really hope there is some justice served soon.

I really hate this BG.

 

[FinePrint]

One more thing about his hands. I can't tell if his right hand is in his pocket or waist band. If it is in his waist band I would have to say he may have been in the military.

I have the same annoying habit of putting my finger tips in my waist band when its cold out rather than in my pockets. Hands in pockets is not allowed in the military, well at least in the Army. I endured many push ups due to having my hands in my pockets. I can always tell when I see someone with their finger tips in their waist bands as being a veteran!

 

[Cutiekitty]

I can see his hands, bare skin

I see a hand

 

[raja]

Perhaps a stun gun was used. This would immobilize one victim with out sound and the threat of further harm to that victim may have silenced the second girl.

 

[Falling Down]

These articles may clarify the situation. It does look like LE use them in certain situations. A double murder investigation would warrant that IMO.

Indiana State Police tracking cellphones — but won't say how or why

US cops point at cell towers and say: Give us every phone number that's touched that mast

Stingray technology has been used for some years for tracking phones within the range of the device. It was developed during the Iraq War to try and find cell phones used in IED attacks. Harris Corp. developed the tech.

In one case where a local PD used it in NY State, they went to a specific residence to look for a suspect, but they had no idea if he was there, so they tried to track a phone linked to him. When the Stingray device is close enough it can track a cell phone's location to within 6 feet. When the information about the arrest and its circumstances came up in the trial, the PD's officer who was in charge of the apprehension was asked how they knew the guy was in the house. The PO clammed up and wouldn't elaborate.

Reason being, the PD should have gotten a warrant before trying to apprehend the suspect, but they didn't. There's also the issue of privacy and the Constitutionality of how the Stingray was used. Stingray can be either A) Mobile, say in a van, or B) Stationary, placed on a pole/mast of some sort or another. Bottom line, they should have a warrant to track a specific cell phone, which includes the stationary Stingrays. LE use the stationary ones to get all nearby cell traffic, commonly used in tracking drug dealers, things of that nature. They should still have to get a warrant to then track a specific phone picked up by the stationary Stingray.

Hope this helps clear things up, sometimes the media don't explain much about how such tech is used. It's very expensive, often times used only in specific investigations by local and state police departments.

Let's say LE have a cell phone or cell phones in the Delphi case they think may be linked to it. If they fingered a suspect, they could put a Stingray near the suspect's residence, workplace, etc. If LE determines there's a link between, say, Bridge Guy with cell phone traffic picked up by the Stingray by phone numbers or other phone data, say a SIM card switched to another phone, that type of thing, then they could request a warrant from that county's court.

Stingray can also mimic a cell tower:

Stingray phone tracker - Wikipedia

Several court decisions have been issued on the legality of using a Stingray without a warrant, with some courts ruling a warrant is required[44][45][46] and others not requiring a warrant.[47]

-FD

 

[Falling Down]

He could have likely threatened one girls life to get the other to comply and to keep both silent.

Whatever he did, he is a sick a$$hole!
JMO

My hunch is one was controlled using a tool of some sort.

JMO

-FD

 

[raja]

I am still hung up on remembering that Libby was using BP's phone that day. Does anyone else remember this. If Libby's phone was acting up I would think BP would want to be sure the girls had a working phone. Libby may have had both phones with her. Her phone may have had a better camera so she used it for photos and videos only that day.

 

[155etta]

As I've tried to visualize how this killer managed to kill 2 persons - i.e., control one while killing the other - I think of how many times this has happened in other crimes. For example, the Colonial Parkway Murders, the killer, if there was only one killer, managed to kill not one couple BUT FOUR couples. One couple has never been found, but of the other three only one couple were killed with a gun. The other two couples were stabbed and/or strangled. And with the exception of one person who was 14 ALL were adults, not middle school girls. Of course, these murders have never been solved so we don't know exactly how it was done and the murder scene is only known in one of the four killings.

So I know killers have done this many times, yet I'm at a loss as to just how this killer did it. To the best of my knowledge, no one heard screams so they were either restrained and gagged or the murders went down very quickly. Whether or not a gun was the murder weapon is not known since most in rural areas don't pay much attention to gun shots. (I know this from spending a lot of time in farm country in the Mid-West.)

What about a silencer (suppressor)on the gun?

 

[155etta]

Very well could have. Held one...held a gun at the other.

Zodiac even had one of his victims tie up the other one while he pointed his gun at them. Not saying BG did this...or even speculating he did....just pointing out an instance where one man controlled and attacked 2 (adult) victims. Abby and Libby, being young teens, would likely naturally comply to an adult...especially one armed with a weapon.

Bolding mine. Have them do all the work so as not to leave his DNA.