CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #11

[Curiousobserver]

I was just thinking the exact same thing, @LietKynes. Taken at face value, we have an older couple going on a hike, she is out of his sight for 5-10 minutes, just 5-10 minutes from their truck and RV. No sign of her that her husband can see, no sign of her that searchers can find, not even a slight hint from the dogs.

There are a few others (that man missing at Mesa Verde, it's crazy - even if he was navigationally challenged, where did he go?) Maura Murray, the young man in Australia (from the past year), the Canadian man in Joshua Tree. That older man who went missing on Mt Shasta also. Of course, there are some 20+ people missing over the past 3-4 decades in Yosemite, none thought to be foul play.

I think we are all frustrated and stymied.

I am on the fence and baffled as well. We had a man go missing this year a few houses down from me. He walked into an area that is 90% large open fields with vegetation no higher than a few inches...and it took 2 days to find his body lying down right in the middle of one of them. He was less than 2000 feet from his house.

She should have been out of his sight for 5-10 minutes but she was actually out of his sight for many hours by the time LE arrived- If she had been close to the RV initially, but lost, she had hours and hours to get much further away as he was looking for her. Most lost people are found within 1-2 miles of where they were last seen but some, even children, have walked 20 miles overnight. Not that I think she made it 20 miles in that heat, it's just an extreme example of what has happened in the past.

 

[Micheline]

LE has never said the photo was taken the day she disappeared. It is dbdb11's opinion that it was not. MOO

Bolding mine

The VI would know RT better than the rest of us.
His opinion carries weight.
Dbm ; Better ways to say this.

It is only logical that the picture of Barbara was taken that day.

If a person goes missing it is standard procedure that one provides a picture recent as possible of the missing person, not some old vague picture in which the missing person happens to wear the same color bikini.

RT was able to provide pictures of BT of that day and time and place which proof that she was where he said she was, when he said she was. So there were pictures of her from that day, maybe just not so clear, probably because she wasn't the focus of the picture.

But since it being the most recent picture it was used, next to a less recent picture in which she was clearly recognisable.

Our VI has provided various clear pictures of Barbara in her bikini. With recent techniques it takes 2 seconds to make a white bikini black or a green hat red in a picture, so they could have used a clear picture from for example a year ago and change the color of her outfit instead of using this vague one. The only reason to do so is if it were the last picture made of her.
LE would not send someone home to dig up a vague photo from years ago in order to have a picture of her in a black bikini, they can fix that real quick using various programmes.

This in combination with the time of year and time of day, the environment and outfit being consistent with their trip, I do not doubt for one minute that this picture was from that day. IMO

 

[Nikynoo]

It is only logical that the picture of Barbara was taken that day.

If a person goes missing it is standard procedure that one provides a picture recent as possible of the missing person, not some old vague picture in which the missing person happens to wear the same color bikini.

RT was able to provide pictures of BT of that day and time and place which proof that she was where he said she was, when he said she was. So there were pictures of her from that day, maybe just not so clear, probably because she wasn't the focus of the picture.

But since it being the most recent picture it was used, next to a less recent picture in which she was clearly recognisable.

Our VI has provided various clear pictures of Barbara in her bikini. With recent techniques it takes 2 seconds to make a white bikini black or a green hat red in a picture, so they could have used a clear picture from for example a year ago and change the color of her outfit instead of using this vague one. The only reason to do so is if it were the last picture made of her.
LE would not send someone home to dig up a vague photo from years ago in order to have a picture of her in a black bikini, they can fix that real quick using various programmes.

This in combination with the time of year and time of day, the environment and outfit being consistent with their trip, I do not doubt for one minute that this picture was from that day. IMO

I agree, and the fact that the copyright is LE, shows to me (in my professional opinion) that LE cropped the picture to focus on Barbara.

 

[Cherwell]

I agree too. People who think the photo wasn't taken that day seem to give one or two reasons.

One, the police haven't said so. Well, why do they need to? They probably think it speaks for itself.

Two, Barbara "looks younger". That's because she's out of focus. She wasn't the main subject of the photo. The focus would have been the rocks or the landscape, and all that has been cropped out.

 

[PaulR]

I agree too. People who think the photo wasn't taken that day seem to give one or two reasons.

One, the police haven't said so. Well, why do they need to? They probably think it speaks for itself.

Two, Barbara "looks younger". That's because she's out of focus. She wasn't the main subject of the photo. The focus would have been the rocks or the landscape, and all that has been cropped out.

Not just focus, but also resolution of the photo. To me the photo looks like one of those "take a picture of me with a giant tree/rock/whatever" meaning you have to step back, and the person in the photo appears tiny. Crop that and blow it up, and the resolution is shoddy.

Here's an example, a photo of one of my favorite actresses, the great Lauren Bacall. One is the photo from Wikipedia, one is the photo de-res'ed (to give the effect of what I think happened with the photo we have of BT.) She looks younger in the latter photo, just because the photo is blocky and you can no longer see wrinkles.

(If you want to do this yourself, load up a photo in something like Paint, resize the image to 25% of the original width/height, and then resize to 400% of original width/height.)

 

[10ofRods]

I am on the fence and baffled as well. We had a man go missing this year a few houses down from me. He walked into an area that is 90% large open fields with vegetation no higher than a few inches...and it took 2 days to find his body lying down right in the middle of one of them. He was less than 2000 feet from his house.

She should have been out of his sight for 5-10 minutes but she was actually out of his sight for many hours by the time LE arrived- If she had been close to the RV initially, but lost, she had hours and hours to get much further away as he was looking for her. Most lost people are found within 1-2 miles of where they were last seen but some, even children, have walked 20 miles overnight. Not that I think she made it 20 miles in that heat, it's just an extreme example of what has happened in the past.

I totally get what you're saying, though. In 3 hours, a healthy adult could easily walk 6-8 miles. Even in the heat. And while beer is ultimately dehydrating, it does provide some hydration in the short term. RT yelled for Barbara (starting 5-10 minutes after he last saw her?) and waved his arms. He must have thought she was very nearby at that point. However, people's voices can be more quiet than they think. Sound is affected by wind. If she was already walking away from where she was supposed to be, she'd have seen no arm waving.

I wonder how loud Barb's own voice was. In 10 minutes, they could have been half a mile apart.

I do think the desert plants out there can be quite difficult to search under/around/behind.

I too think the picture of Barb was taken that day (thank you Paul for weighing in on this one). My reason is that the sandstone boulders behind Barb are of the same type and size as the boulders about .9 mile from where they parked, plus you can see some interesting mineral accretions on those boulders, also seen in other pictures of the Granite Mountain boulder area (and actually, you can see the accretions on the boulders in some of the search photos). The "red" or "white" hat is actually a "red and white" hat, and of course, the black bikini top is visible.

She's also wearing aviator style sunglasses that hardly ever get mentioned.

 

[al66pine]

....But, if they would at least search the area where she was last seen they may finally be able to determine what happened, if they find a body. If they find nothing then I guess they are right back where they started but at least every effort to find her will have been made. Imo

MsBetsy sbm bbm
"Every effort to find" her alive there... (days 1 thru ~4?)............ which LE & SAR did imo,
and
'Every effort to find" remains there.... (days 5 thru ~9 or 10?) ....which LE & SAR also did imo.
Seems LE & SAR did an exhaustive, thorough search, imo, past point of survivable in those conditions.
W a loved one missing, seems everyone posting here would want LE & multiple SAR teams working night and day, around the clock, searching for weeks, months, years, decades, until loved one is found. Me too. Is that possible?
Of course RT and others could organize individuals to conduct searches, without LE, without SAR. jmo

---------------------------
If LE & SAR teams return to search for BT's remains there, what happens w calls to search for others missing, still in survivable window? A lost child, a wandering senior, or someone dependent on Rx 4 times daily? Will SAR members who searched for BT say - not available tor this new search, already taken off work too many days this month/this year?
IIRC @K9Enzo and/or @LAhiker stated, SAR team members are volunteers taking time off work for their unpaid SAR efforts. Practically speaking employees can do that only so many days a year, as few employers can run their operations indefinitely w ppl absent with no/little notice.

 

[LietKynes]

It is only logical that the picture of Barbara was taken that day.

If a person goes missing it is standard procedure that one provides a picture recent as possible of the missing person, not some old vague picture in which the missing person happens to wear the same color bikini.

BBM
Actually, no, it's not really all that logical.
Time and date stamps can be altered.
One of our posters explained that in an earlier thread.
So thanks to them for that.

They were familiar with the area, according to the VI --so they may have hiked there before.
We don't know if this was a vague, older photo or not.
Neither, I'd assume, do LE.
The VI believes there are photos of Barbara out there that day, but he hasn't been shown them.
As far as we know, no photos of Barbara have been released to the public from that day.
Older photos can be saved to an Icloud server and also on ones' phone.

There are many reasons an older photo was used for the missing posters and if she had on the same outfit it would make sense.
Not a stretch to think that the swimsuit was the exact one she wore the day she vanished.

I agree too. People who think the photo wasn't taken that day seem to give one or two reasons.

One, the police haven't said so. Well, why do they need to? They probably think it speaks for itself.

Two, Barbara "looks younger". That's because she's out of focus. She wasn't the main subject of the photo. The focus would have been the rocks or the landscape, and all that has been cropped out.

BBM

^^^ Agreed with you , LE don't need to divulge this.
They've been tight-lipped.
But that's to be expected in some investigations , although not all of them..

The last video of Hannah Graham was released while she was still considered missing and it didn't save her life, unfortunately.
But it showed what she was wearing and her purse and general demeanor.

And they (LE) have never stated that this photo was from July 12th.
As far as we know , there's been no release of photos from that day.
The VI has been instrumental in what little information that's been released -- and he said that LE believe she was there that day based on photos.
But he wasn't shown any.

There's no confirmation from LE as of yet, that the bikini pic. is the one taken that specific day.
If LE provide an update, and say here is the photo and yes-- we know for a certainty that she was there ; then there will be solid proof.
Imo.

I was going to say 'proof of life' as I wish she could be alive somewhere, even if she left of her own volition.
The family needs answers.
Hopefully soon.

 

[MsBetsy]

It is only logical that the picture of Barbara was taken that day.

If a person goes missing it is standard procedure that one provides a picture recent as possible of the missing person, not some old vague picture in which the missing person happens to wear the same color bikini.

RT was able to provide pictures of BT of that day and time and place which proof that she was where he said she was, when he said she was. So there were pictures of her from that day, maybe just not so clear, probably because she wasn't the focus of the picture.

But since it being the most recent picture it was used, next to a less recent picture in which she was clearly recognisable.

Our VI has provided various clear pictures of Barbara in her bikini. With recent techniques it takes 2 seconds to make a white bikini black or a green hat red in a picture, so they could have used a clear picture from for example a year ago and change the color of her outfit instead of using this vague one. The only reason to do so is if it were the last picture made of her.
LE would not send someone home to dig up a vague photo from years ago in order to have a picture of her in a black bikini, they can fix that real quick using various programmes.

This in combination with the time of year and time of day, the environment and outfit being consistent with their trip, I do not doubt for one minute that this picture was from that day. IMO

Yes, I read early on in a PDF for the requirements in missing persons cases that the most recent picture is required, if not the same day then the next recent picture.
So even if not the same day, it's likely a very recent picture. They both seemed to be interested in photography so it probably wasn't hard to find a decent picture.
I think that's what RT was doing when the VI called him and he was busy looking through pictures with LE. They were likely going through the photos taken that day and deciding which was the best picture to use. Imo

 

[Kapua]

This is one of the most baffling missing person's cases I've read about for some time.
I keep thinking of some others, but those were small children who'd wandered off.
I've also watched docs about Maura Murray and some others.
Maybe she'll be found in an area already searched ?
It's happened before and that's bizarre.

I don't find it to be particularly baffling, with the exception of not knowing where BT is now. IMHO.

 

[MsBetsy]

MsBetsy sbm bbm
"Every effort to find" her alive there... (days 1 thru ~4?)............ which LE & SAR did imo,
and
'Every effort to find" remains there.... (days 5 thru ~9 or 10?) ....which LE & SAR also did imo.
Seems LE & SAR did an exhaustive, thorough search, imo, past point of survivable in those conditions.
W a loved one missing, seems everyone posting here would want LE & multiple SAR teams working night and day, around the clock, searching for weeks, months, years, decades, until loved one is found. Me too. Is that possible?
Of course RT and others could organize individuals to conduct searches, without LE, without SAR. jmo

---------------------------
If LE & SAR teams return to search for BT's remains there, what happens w calls to search for others missing, still in survivable window? A lost child, a wandering senior, or someone dependent on Rx 4 times daily? Will SAR members who searched for BT say - not available tor this new search, already taken off work too many days this month/this year?
IIRC @K9Enzo and/or @LAhiker stated, SAR team members are volunteers taking time off work for their unpaid SAR efforts. Practically speaking employees can do that only so many days a year, as few employers can run their operations indefinitely w ppl absent with no/little notice.

Yes, this is why LE has said they will search if any new evidence is found. I don't think they will continue searching if they believe they are searching for remains, unless they have solid evidence to indicate that there was a crime committed, or that foul play was involved. Imo

 

[LietKynes]

Yes, I read early on in a PDF for the requirements in missing persons cases that the most recent picture is required, if not the same day then the next recent picture.
So even if not the same day, it's likely a very recent picture. They both seemed to be interested in photography so it probably wasn't hard to find a decent picture.
I think that's what RT was doing when the VI called him and he was busy looking through pictures with LE. They were likely going through the photos taken that day and deciding which was the best picture to use. Imo

LBM

Agreed.

It would be nice to see the 360' degree photo, and any others.
Were they alone the whole time or were there others, even in the distance ?
And more photos might show other vehicles in the area.

Since RT thought she may have been kidnapped, extra photos could show clues as to cars driving by, people who might recognize themselves in the photos and could tell LE that they also saw Barbara and RT out walking; etc.
And if an abductor grabbed her, did anyone else out there see a car swiftly driving away , leaving a plume of desert dust behind ?

 

[MsBetsy]

BBM
Actually, no, it's not really all that logical.
Time and date stamps can be altered.
One of our posters explained that in an earlier thread.
So thanks to them for that.

They were familiar with the area, according to the VI --so they may have hiked there before.
We don't know if this was a vague, older photo or not.
Neither, I'd assume, do LE.
The VI believes there are photos of Barbara out there that day, but he hasn't been shown them.
As far as we know, no photos of Barbara have been released to the public from that day.
Older photos can be saved to an Icloud server and also on ones' phone.

There are many reasons an older photo was used for the missing posters and if she had on the same outfit it would make sense.
Not a stretch to think that the swimsuit was the exact one she wore the day she vanished.


BBM

^^^ Agreed with you , LE don't need to divulge this.
They've been tight-lipped.
But that's to be expected in some investigations , although not all of them..

The last video of Hannah Graham was released while she was still considered missing and it didn't save her life, unfortunately.
But it showed what she was wearing and her purse and general demeanor.

And they (LE) have never stated that this photo was from July 12th.
As far as we know , there's been no release of photos from that day.
The VI has been instrumental in what little information that's been released -- and he said that LE believe she was there that day based on photos.
But he wasn't shown any.

There's no confirmation from LE as of yet, that the bikini pic. is the one taken that specific day.
If LE provide an update, and say here is the photo and yes-- we know for a certainty that she was there ; then there will be solid proof.
Imo.

I was going to say 'proof of life' as I wish she could be alive somewhere, even if she left of her own volition.
The family needs answers.
Hopefully soon.

Don't LE have the means and the technology to determine if the timestamps have been tampered with? Wouldn't there be something about that one picture that indicated something was off? When would RT have had the time to change the date in the picture?
Why assume that he would even do that?

When LE assured the VI that the pictures of Barbara verified that she was there that day, in the location where she went missing, I would think they would have had to be completely confident of that evidence.

In fact two of the only sure things that LE seems to have expressed to the VI is that they have proof that Barbara was there and the notion that just because RT's behavior is suspicious doesn't mean he is responsible for her death.

Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

LBM

Agreed.

It would be nice to see the 360' degree photo, and any others.
Were they alone the whole time or were there others, even in the distance ?
And more photos might show other vehicles in the area.

Since RT thought she may have been kidnapped, extra photos could show clues as to cars driving by, people who might recognize themselves in the photos and could tell LE that they also saw Barbara and RT out walking; etc.
And if an abductor grabbed her, did anyone else out there see a car swiftly driving away , leaving a plume of desert dust behind ?

Yes, I think that is why RT was so upset at first that LE was not investigating the cars in the parking lot.
However, I think he made that statement before he realized that LE was in the process of investigating the cars. Imo

 

[LietKynes]

Don't LE have the means and the technology to determine if the timestamps have been tampered with? Wouldn't there be something about that one picture that indicated something was off? When would RT have had the time to change the date in the picture?
Why assume that he would even do that?

When LE assured the VI that the pictures of Barbara verified that she was there that day, in the location where she went missing, I would think they would have had to be completely confident of that evidence.

In fact two of the only sure things that LE seems to have expressed to the VI is that they have proof that Barbara was there and the notion that just because RT's behavior is suspicious doesn't mean he is responsible for her death.

Imo

LBM

First bolded : One would assume they do. Some pd's are more tech. advanced than others.
Since she is still a missing person, why won't they release more photos ?
At this point, anything would help. It couldn't hurt.

Second B. : There's a possibility the photos taken were private, in RT's opinion. Maybe he didn't want to share them so he shared some other one(s) ?
Plausible but no one knows.

My opinion is that the son's perspective and others have influenced this case, but not to the degree that other cases have .
The VI has voiced concerns but he thought until her vanishing that they were doing fine.
Some cases are skewed totally one way and when the truth comes out it was the opposite from what people assumed.

I don't think anyone here said any person in particular was responsible for foul play; and we don't know if she's still alive or not.
Although I've referenced the suggested abductor occasionally.

LE have said there's no evidence of harm.
So that should be a good sign for Barbara's family.
Wish the VI could chime in sometime soon.

 

[PommyMommy]

Yes, I read early on in a PDF for the requirements in missing persons cases that the most recent picture is required, if not the same day then the next recent picture.
So even if not the same day, it's likely a very recent picture. They both seemed to be interested in photography so it probably wasn't hard to find a decent picture.
I think that's what RT was doing when the VI called him and he was busy looking through pictures with LE. They were likely going through the photos taken that day and deciding which was the best picture to use. Imo

BBM

Barbara's family hadn't even been notified that Barbara was missing when the photo was published (RT called them between interviews or sometime thereabouts, IIRC).

So, the bikini photo couldn't have been selected when the VI called RT and was told that RT was going over photos with LE. MOO

 

[MsBetsy]

LBM

First bolded : One would assume they do. Some pd's are more tech. advanced than others.
Since she is still a missing person, why won't they release more photos ?
At this point, anything would help. It couldn't hurt.

Second B. : There's a possibility the photos taken were private, in RT's opinion. Maybe he didn't want to share them so he shared some other one(s) ?
Plausible but no one knows.

My opinion is that the son's perspective and others have influenced this case, but not to the degree that other cases have .
The VI has voiced concerns but he thought until her vanishing that they were doing fine.
Some cases are skewed totally one way and when the truth comes out it was the opposite from what people assumed.

I don't think anyone here said any person in particular was responsible for foul play; and we don't know if she's still alive or not.
Although I've referenced the suggested abductor occasionally.

LE have said there's no evidence of harm.
So that should be a good sign for Barbara's family.
Wish the VI could chime in sometime soon.

Yes, I'm sure they have the resources if they thought it was necessary to look more into it.

I don't think LE has the means to release the photos because of privacy laws. They would need to ask RT's permission to release the pictures, and if they felt it would be helpful they would probably ask.

Or, if they had evidence of a crime they likely would not need his permission. In that case they could release the photos, but still might not if it was part of a criminal investigation.

At this time it is still a missing persons Investigation. It would probably not be useful to release the pictures. After all, there probably were not any other people at that location that day, and if there were, they probably have been interviewed. Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

BBM

Barbara's family hadn't even been notified that Barbara was missing when the photo was published (RT called them between interviews or sometime thereabouts, IIRC).

So, the bikini photo couldn't have been selected when the VI called RT and was told that RT was going over photos with LE. MOO

They may have released the photo as soon as it was supplied, then. Maybe they were just going over the photos that were taken that day, looking for evidence or for more photos to release to the public.

It still doesn't mean that LE would use an outdated photo. Imo

 

[Twistinginthewind]

I've been following Barbara's missing person case from the week she went missing on July 12th, almost 3 months ago now.

There have been no public updates from LE since they suspended their search for her in late July where RT said she went missing while on a walk in the Mojave Desert. When they suspended the search for her, they said they would conduct additional searches IF their Specialized Investigations unit, who took over after the initial search, turned up new information that would justify additional searching.

Since then, LE has not said that there is any new information based on their ongoing investigation available to the public that could be shared and would be helpful in finding out what happened to her.

When the missing person photographs LE published within days of her disappearance were taken (the exact date) does not seem like helpful information in terms of finding her, or they would have made a statement to the public about it, which is typical in some other MP cases, IMHO.

They did give a description of what RT said she was wearing when they went on their walk, and what he said she had on her person, or didn't have as it were, i.e., no water, supplies, or cell phone.

I wish there was some new information.

It's been over 2 months now without a word from LE, and almost 3 months since she disappeared.

Please continue to pass the word along about her disappearance, especially if you live near or know people who do live nearby or have taken trips out into the Mojave Desert National Park in CA over the summer. She has to be somewhere out there! Someone may have seen something, and just aren't aware that it is potential evidence in solving her disappearance!



MOO

 

[PommyMommy]

They may have released the photo as soon as it was supplied, then. Maybe they were just going over the photos that were taken that day, looking for evidence or for more photos to release to the public.

It still doesn't mean that LE would use an outdated photo. Imo

I agree. Originally, I was simply clarifying for Seattle1 that we don't know FOR A FACT when the photo was taken because LE hasn't said, but our VI seems to think it wasn't taken that day... But, here we go again, lol. MOO

That's not ever been clear to me.

I've also read that the ball cap, and black bikini top photo of BT circulating was NOT taken on the date BT disappeared-- but taken on a earlier date and/or different outing, and provided by RT for reference as it was similar attire she was last seen wearing.

LE has never said the photo was taken the day she disappeared. It is dbdb11's opinion that it was not. MOO