What's eating you alive re this case?

[Maldoror]

This is very old news, but I remember when it all happened so will add my thoughts. Originally, the housekeeper said Patsy killed JBR. She was quoted as saying she heard Patsy screaming at JB often when they were in the bathroom following an accident when she soiled herself. Part of Patsy's corporal punishment for JBR was a douche...which would explain the old and new damage...

Never until now had I heard the allegation that Patsy douched JBR. It seems really extreme, IMO. Are we sure this isn't just a salacious rumor?

 

[Userid]

I wouldn't call "Mr and Mrs /" a practice note. It's the beginning of a salutation.

It's odd to me that you find that so problematic, but not PR crushing her daughter's skull accidentally, then garroting her and sexually abusing her to cover it up. If you can think that someone would go to that length to cover an accidental killing, surely you can accept it's also possible that a murderer likewise tried to cover his identity by not leaving something that could be traced back to him?

I understand if you think it's unlikely for a person to steal a notepad and return with it and throw some pages away at the home, but it's certainly not impossible. It's also not impossible that someone wrote a ransom note on their own paper at home, brought it with to the crime, copied it down on the notepad. Nothing has been "disproved." (I will concede that stealing the paper and bringing it back seems unlikely, I do think already having one written out and copying it down there makes good sense for the intruder theory. That note took some time, no matter who wrote it.)

So we agree, the duct tape is contaminated and thus can't really disclose what we wish it could.

I don't think wearing the same clothes from the night before means anything. It could mean something, but it equally could be meaningless. You will interpret that as PR was up all night doing this heinous crime and I will interpret as she was very tired from Christmas.

Have you read about the theory that strangulation came first, then the blow to the head? What are your thoughts on that?

You wouldn't? That's exactly what it is. It was written before the actual ransom note, and corrected to only address Mr. R instead of both. And again: it had ink bleed-through from the same pad/pen that was written on the actual ransom note. So how you don't consider that a practice ransom note is a bit mind-boggling.

I never said PR performed all those things. You're conflating and/or you don't know my theory. To keep it short, JR (in my theory) helped in the staging of the body while PR wrote the note. We'll never know though who exactly was responsible for which act.

I don't believe that the killer would smuggle a folder into a house where he wouldn't even know there would be a notepad out in the open to steal from, because he would have had to have ESP and that would have been impossible. Furthermore, I don't believe he would smuggle a practice note he wrote outside of the home, simply to throw it away in a trashcan inside the house, because there is literally no logical explanation why he would do that. That's why I think your theory with regard to the note is impossible.

Yes, I do believe that filicide is unfortunately quite common in this country and that rage killings involving children happen every day in this country, again unfortunately.

And yes, I do believe that, if there was prior sexual abuse, that the individual committing said abuse would try to cover that up by staging a rape.

The duct tape isn't contaminated when it comes to the fibers from PR's sweater. It never left the room/original crime scene. It didn't even come into contact with the floor -- it adhered to the blanket, which was also involved in the crime. You can't explain how the fibers got on that piece of tape. JR's fingers couldn't have transferred all those fibers in the split second it took for him to rip it off. The tape itself would have had to have clung to the actual sweater -- that's the only way all those fibers could have been attached.

Yes, I've read that theory. I've also read the theory that both the head blow and strangulation happened simultaneously/at the same time. It's impossible to know, really, as there are experts on both sides that disagree (like usual).

 

[Beltonian]

southernmimi, the original PDI story is plausible but it does not explain John participation. If we assume PDI over bed wetting. He did not love Patsy to protect her, he lost his second daughter and the wife he did not care about supposedly killer her. I just do not see how he agreed to start this game unless he is involved in molestation and/or murder himself...

 

[Userid]

southernmimi, the original PDI story is plausible but it does not explain John participation. If we assume PDI over bed wetting. He did not love Patsy to protect her, he lost his second daughter and the wife he did not care about supposedly killer her. I just do not see how he agreed to start this game unless he is involved in molestation and/or murder himself...

I agree. He also had some level of culpability here. He wouldn't have protected PR if he didn't. This is also why they hired separate lawyers: they each knew they were culpable in some -- albeit, perhaps separate -- way in this particular crime. One was responsible for one specific aspect of this murder; and the other was responsible for another aspect.

 

[southernmimi]

Never until now had I heard the allegation that Patsy douched JBR. It seems really extreme, IMO. Are we sure this isn't just a salacious rumor?

Of course, I'm not sure. I wasn't there to witness it, but the latest housekeeper said this was one of PR's methods of discouraging JBR from wetting. I also thought it extreme until I did a little research. Seems the method has been used before for the same purpose...and would cause damage.

 

[Maldoror]

Of course, I'm not sure. I wasn't there to witness it, but the latest housekeeper said this was one of PR's methods of discouraging JBR from wetting. I also thought it extreme until I did a little research. Seems the method has been used before for the same purpose...and would cause damage.

Really? I can't find any pediatric information or sources detailing the use of douching or enemas as treatments for bedwetting. In fact, the only references to such treatments seem to be from the Victorian era (see below). Did the family doctor know of JB's bedwetting? Did he ever recommend the use of douches? I still find it hard to believe. From looking around, it seems all reliable medical sources condemn douching as ineffective, detrimental, and possibly dangerous.

However, if true, this would paint JB's parents as abusive. Subjecting a child to douching without medical reason to do so is not only inappropriate, it is plainly sexual abuse.

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

 

[David Rogers]

Really? I can't find any pediatric information or sources detailing the use of douching or enemas as treatments for bedwetting. In fact, the only references to such treatments seem to be from the Victorian era (see below). Did the family doctor know of JB's bedwetting? Did he ever recommend the use of douches? I still find it hard to believe. From looking around, it seems all reliable medical sources condemn douching as ineffective, detrimental, and possibly dangerous.

However, if true, this would paint JB's parents as abusive. Subjecting a child to douching without medical reason to do so is not only inappropriate, it is plainly sexual abuse.

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

Not treatment, punishment. Could have been a family thing or passed down.

 

[Tadpole12]

Of course, I'm not sure. I wasn't there to witness it, but the latest housekeeper said this was one of PR's methods of discouraging JBR from wetting. I also thought it extreme until I did a little research. Seems the method has been used before for the same purpose...and would cause damage.

sm,

"but the latest housekeeper said this was one of PR's methods of discouraging JBR from wetting." - sm

Can you source this, I assume, LHP's claim?
I've never heard of this before?


*****************
nevermind I found the source

She was quoted as saying she heard Patsy screaming at JB often when they were in the bathroom following an accident when she soiled herself. Part of Patsy's corporal punishment for JBR was a douche...which would explain the old and new damage to the child's vaginal area.

LHP book, Chapter 1:
Someone is getting away with Murder: DEATH OF AN INNOCENT

"JonBenet wet the bed again that night, didn't she? She woke up and told you about it before you were even undressed and you simply "lost it." You took her into the bathroom. It was the same destination you always took JonBenet when it was time to punish her for bedwetting. You forget that I saw you take here there so many times before, shutting the door tightly behind you, so her screams could not be heard. Except this time there was "an accident," wasn't there? You picked up the long, black flashlight you had brought with you, and you swung it. You swung it first at her crotch and then next at her head. Maybe you meant to scare her and maybe you didn't mean to kill her, but you did."

 

[southernmimi]

Really? I can't find any pediatric information or sources detailing the use of douching or enemas as treatments for bedwetting. In fact, the only references to such treatments seem to be from the Victorian era (see below). Did the family doctor know of JB's bedwetting? Did he ever recommend the use of douches? I still find it hard to believe. From looking around, it seems all reliable medical sources condemn douching as ineffective, detrimental, and possibly dangerous.

However, if true, this would paint JB's parents as abusive. Subjecting a child to douching without medical reason to do so is not only inappropriate, it is plainly sexual abuse.

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

I believe her doctor did know of the bedwetting and other problems JBR had. Surely, he didn't recommend douching...especially on a six year old. I wish I knew what happened to this child just as everyone else does. After so many years, it's all speculation. I tend to agree the Patsy would use a douche on this little girl as a form of control over her, and ( it would be a powerful method)....and yes it would absolutely be inappropriate and abusive in every way.

 

[Tadpole12]

But LHP surely could not have been aware of this type of abuse and then said or did nothing?

 

[mickey2942]

sm,

"but the latest housekeeper said this was one of PR's methods of discouraging JBR from wetting." - sm

Can you source this, I assume, LHP's claim?
I've never heard of this before?


*****************
nevermind I found the source



LHP book, Chapter 1:
Someone is getting away with Murder: DEATH OF AN INNOCENT

"JonBenet wet the bed again that night, didn't she? She woke up and told you about it before you were even undressed and you simply "lost it." You took her into the bathroom. It was the same destination you always took JonBenet when it was time to punish her for bedwetting. You forget that I saw you take here there so many times before, shutting the door tightly behind you, so her screams could not be heard. Except this time there was "an accident," wasn't there? You picked up the long, black flashlight you had brought with you, and you swung it. You swung it first at her crotch and then next at her head. Maybe you meant to scare her and maybe you didn't mean to kill her, but you did."

This is very similar to what I thought occurred. But, what was also in this blog, was a discussion about the similarities between JBR and Isobel Celis.

Interestingly enough, a man confessed to killing Isobel in 2017. Completely random stranger stole Isobel from her bedroom. Her parents were suspects for years in her disappearance.

Just when you have something all figured out, a random, glaring situation like this comes up...back to square one.

 

[southernmimi]

But LHP surely could not have been aware of this type of abuse and then said or did nothing?

I'm feel certain that she was aware of it. She probably needed her job, and wasn't 100% sure what happened behind the bathroom doors so kept her thoughts to herself. I believe Patsy was fearful that she had/would cause some real damage so she took JBR to the doctor often...probably as a record of her fake concern. Who knows what happened, but I still think Patsy was the abuser and the one who (accidentally) killed JBR.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm feel certain that she was aware of it. She probably needed her job, and wasn't 100% sure what happened behind the bathroom doors so kept her thoughts to herself. I believe Patsy was fearful that she had/would cause some real damage so she took JBR to the doctor often...probably as a record of her fake concern. Who knows what happened, but I still think Patsy was the abuser and the one who (accidentally) killed JBR.

southernmimi,
If the case is PDI then Patsy totally messed up the staging, which given her obvious intelligence I doubt.

Her explanation for the size-12's is right out of a Harry Potter book. The only way it could be PDI is if Patsy was mentally ill.

.

 

[southernmimi]

southernmimi,
If the case is PDI then Patsy totally messed up the staging, which given her obvious intelligence I doubt.

Her explanation for the size-12's is right out of a Harry Potter book. The only way it could be PDI is if Patsy was mentally ill.

.

 

[southernmimi]

If Patsy did it then she was mentally ill. An intelligent person, under stress and new to staging, could easily mess it all up. Whoever staged it all overthought it and put in too much detail. To accidentally kill your child then try to stage it all away...without one mistake...would be impossible.

 

[UKGuy]

If Patsy did it then she was mentally ill. An intelligent person, under stress and new to staging, could easily mess it all up. Whoever staged it all overthought it and put in too much detail. To accidentally kill your child then try to stage it all away...without one mistake...would be impossible.

southernmimi,
I agree, Patsy might make a few elementary mistakes, but surely not on the scale of the size-12's, i.e. underwear purchased for her niece, not JonBenet.

Then there is the long underwear which transpires to belong to Burke complete with front opening, so why is she implicating Burke into a homicide, JonBenet had a drawer full of pajamas and nightgowns, etc?

Although the case might be PDI with Patsy unintentionally killing JonBenet, I doubt it, it looks more like Patsy was covering for someone else, i.e. John or Burke.

I definitely think the case is JDI or BDI a strong case can be made for either, BDI is the more coherent theory, but that does not mean its valid.

It could be JDI with John hiding in plain sight, still controlling everything, the puppet master, we will find out once he passes on, I'm convinced Burke will be compelled to speak.

.

 

[southernmimi]

southernmimi,
I agree, Patsy might make a few elementary mistakes, but surely not on the scale of the size-12's, i.e. underwear purchased for her niece, not JonBenet.

Then there is the long underwear which transpires to belong to Burke complete with front opening, so why is she implicating Burke into a homicide, JonBenet had a drawer full of pajamas and nightgowns, etc?

Although the case might be PDI with Patsy unintentionally killing JonBenet, I doubt it, it looks more like Patsy was covering for someone else, i.e. John or Burke.

I definitely think the case is JDI or BDI a strong case can be made for either, BDI is the more coherent theory, but that does not mean its valid.

It could be JDI with John hiding in plain sight, still controlling everything, the puppet master, we will find out once he passes on, I'm convinced Burke will be compelled to speak.

.

I think you're correct in that Burke and long ago family friends know what happened. Someone will speak out once John is gone. There was a family dynamic present in the Ramsey household that, I believe, was different and frightening. May we all live long enough to find out the truth.

 

[BoldBear]

It just occurred to me that the urine-stained carpet could have been a treasure trove of information. We have a source of wet carpet with urine. Anyone walking across that patch was bound to pick it up on the bottom of their shoes. So when they entered the windowless room it would have been on the bottom of their shoes. Even exited the room, they could have picked up the urine on the bottom of their shoes. That would mean they're dropping what is basically a rubber stamp on the carpet.

Damn. What an opportunity lost by the crime scene investigators.

I'm getting visions of the movie chain saw murder shaking his head in the Geico ad.

 

[BoldBear]

I think we all dismissed LHP's first test chapter of her book where Patsy talks to her about how she doesn't like oral sex. I couldn't imagine Patsy saying this to Linda about her intimacy with John. But a disturbing thought entered my mind. If this conversation wasn't about John, then Patsy probably wouldn't seek advice from her family members or her friends. It actually becomes possible if Patsy wasn't talking about John. Linda would have no place to take it. She'd never bring it up with John or anyone else. Sigh.

 

[Userid]

It just occurred to me that the urine-stained carpet could have been a treasure trove of information. We have a source of wet carpet with urine. Anyone walking across that patch was bound to pick it up on the bottom of their shoes. So when they entered the windowless room it would have been on the bottom of their shoes. Even exited the room, they could have picked up the urine on the bottom of their shoes. That would mean they're dropping what is basically a rubber stamp on the carpet.

Damn. What an opportunity lost by the crime scene investigators.

I'm getting visions of the movie chain saw murder shaking his head in the Geico ad.

I'm fuzzy on the case now, but I think the section with stain was covered by the paint tray, wasn't it? And I don't think the stain was very big; I was under the impression that it was more like a drop. But I could be wrong.