TX - Atatiana Jefferson, 28, fatally shot at home, Fort Worth, Oct 2019 *officer charged*

[grammieto5]

The Fourth Amendment right of individuals to remain safe and secure in their own homes, (Free from government intrusion) is a fundamental civil liberty.

Unwarranted and non-emergency welfare checks should not deprive us of those rights. (but they often do!).

I would never take anyone's 4thA rights away, by calling in a welfare check, without being a great deal more concerned and at least attempting to make contact with my neighbors.

It always amazes me how quick we are to just hand those rights over like we don't even care if we have any.

"I appreciate your concern, but as you can see, we 're fine."

Is my preference to just caving in to "mind if we come in" warrantless search inquiries...

I absolutely treasure my rights and my freedom. The freedom to choose, we chose to let the police in our home. We had nothing to hide, we had no fear of the police. They asked politely, non-threatening. LOL "no caving in". I believe if Dean had gone to Atatiana door, rang the bell or knocked on her door, she would be alive today.

 

[Safeguard]

I absolutely treasure my rights and my freedom. The freedom to choose, we chose to let the police in our home. We had nothing to hide, we had no fear of the police. They asked politely, non-threatening. LOL "no caving in". I believe if Dean had gone to Atatiana door, rang the bell or knocked on her door, she would be alive today.

Yup. That's how it works. You "had nothing to hide". So basically, you just confirmed why you "chose" to allow a warrantless search. (Because they were so nice an all.).

Only people who who are "hiding something" or "afraid of the police" would need 4a rights.

You wouldn't say no thank you to the nice officers just because you didn't call them and don't need assistance, or that would make you look bad?

 

[jjenny]

First I want to say, this is horrible .... and it breaks my heart.

Also I wanted to say that I have called police for a property check, when I thought someone was on my property at night.

The officers didn’t immediately knock on my door or announce themselves. They started looking around the property first. They’re very quiet .... usually with flashlights.

When they’re sure there’s no threat, THEN they come to the door.

BUT, that’s when “I” call THEM, and I’m expecting them.

This of course was different. One officer should have called the resident first, to let her know they were coming, and that they would be outside looking around.

OR the dispatch should have called her.

But I wanted to mention this, because so many are saying that officers should knock first or announce themselves. If they did that, the person they’re looking for, would hear them and could get away, shoot the officers, or harm the person inside.

Again, this WAS different, in that she had no idea they were coming.

It’s very sad.

The officers would need to know residents phone number to call the resident. I don't think the neighbor who called police knew it, otherwise why didn't he just call them to check if everything was o'key?

 

[grammieto5]

Yup. That's how it works. You "had nothing to hide". So basically, you just confirmed why you "chose" to allow a warrantless search. (Because they were so nice an all.).

Only people who who are "hiding something" or "afraid of the police" would need 4a rights.

You wouldn't say no thank you to the nice officers just because you didn't call them and don't need assistance, or that would make you look bad?

You’re making our experience with police something that it wasn’t. Yes, they were extremely nice, non-threatening, very professional. You make it sound like they charged into our home uninvited, with their guns drawn, went through all our rooms, We chose to allow a warrantless search because we had the right to choose to not have them come in, we also had the right to chose to let them come in. There was no reason to chose to not let them come in. They were there because our neighbor was being paranoid, not because we were having domestic issues and one of us called them for help. I’m pretty sure I did not state in my post we chose to let the police into our home because they were so nice and all. Whether one needs their rights, we all are entitled to them. Whether we are hiding something or are afraid of the police. If we wanted to say no thank you to the police, we would have the right to say it. We have the right to choose what to say. If we had chosen to say no to letting them come, it would not make us look bad. I’m not sure what you mean by saying it would make us look bad???? How would you handle the police coming to your home because a neighbor called them for whatever reason?

 

[nrdsb4]

The 1200 block of East Allen Ave, 76104
I don’t know the exact house number but it’s the blue house right next door to the Masjid of All Islam.

This particular house is valued at $154K, much higher than the average for the area. The very close proximity to a major highway makes me wonder about the "safety" of the neighborhood, however. The demographics show high Hispanic concentration and it is considered a "low income" neighborhood. But the value of her home suggest otherwise to me.

I can't really come to any solid conclusions about the neighborhood to determine reasons for the officers' behavior. Maybe someone else on WS lives in Fort Worth and can better address it.

The kind of neighborhood one lives in shouldn't determine whether or not a LEO adheres to policy and training, but LEOs are humans who are flawed and don't necessarily always filter out their biases, implicit or otherwise.

 

[Gardenista]

Officer who shot resident dead in her own home was dispatched to burglary call, not welfare check: Docs

https://www.crimeonline.com/2019/10/17/officer-who-shot-resident-dead-in-her-own-home-was-dispatched-to-burglary-call-not-welfare-check-docs/

 

[MsFacetious]

Thank you for posting "who was Atatiana Jefferson" I hadn't see the photos of her and her siblings.

I don’t think most have seen them, that was my point in posting them.

Yup. That's how it works. You "had nothing to hide". So basically, you just confirmed why you "chose" to allow a warrantless search. (Because they were so nice an all.).

Only people who who are "hiding something" or "afraid of the police" would need 4a rights.

You wouldn't say no thank you to the nice officers just because you didn't call them and don't need assistance, or that would make you look bad?

No she chose to allow them to look around because she had the choice to do so.
The free agency, the option.
So she exercised that right instead of her right to refuse.

I would likely choose differently because I have two protective dogs and 2 skittish cats and 1 evil cat.... but it sounds like grammie just has a normal husband so it wasn’t a big deal.

Neither of us has anything illegal to hide.
Yet we would still exercise our rights by making different choices.
That’s the beauty of freedom.

 

[Safeguard]

You’re making our experience with police something that it wasn’t. Yes, they were extremely nice, non-threatening, very professional. You make it sound like they charged into our home uninvited, with their guns drawn, went through all our rooms, We chose to allow a warrantless search because we had the right to choose to not have them come in, we also had the right to chose to let them come in. There was no reason to chose to not let them come in. They were there because our neighbor was being paranoid, not because we were having domestic issues and one of us called them for help. I’m pretty sure I did not state in my post we chose to let the police into our home because they were so nice and all. Whether one needs their rights, we all are entitled to them. Whether we are hiding something or are afraid of the police. If we wanted to say no thank you to the police, we would have the right to say it. We have the right to choose what to say. If we had chosen to say no to letting them come, it would not make us look bad. I’m not sure what you mean by saying it would make us look bad???? How would you handle the police coming to your home because a neighbor called them for whatever reason?

I'm not attempting to change your experience. (I apologize if I'm coming across contentious).

I'm just pointing out, that, as you said yourself, most people don't really feel they can refuse entry without looking suspicious. That's not free choice. Not really.

Why do we have to be "hiding something" if we would rather not invite them into our home?

You found them pleasant and polite but would you have asked them to come in if they hadn't requested it?

If not then they had no business in your house. (imo).

I have stepped outside, to speak with police on a well check. They never tried to come in, there was no reason to, and as I pulled the door shut when I stepped out, I think they knew I wasn't going to ask them in.

I also got caught in a DEA raid once (guys in the apartment below me were dealing), got tossed up against the wall in my hallway and had a gun pointed in face, once they assertained who I was and where I lived, I was able to go back up to my apartment.

Later they knocked and asked me if they could use my place, my phone and windows, as they were still arresting people pulling up to score, and I was fine with that, (they were in and out of my apartment half the night), because we'd been waiting for something to be done about the downstairs neighbors for months.

So it depends. I don't mind, but I'd like to think I could refuse, without feeling like a criminal. If it's such a free country an all.

 

[grammieto5]

I'm not attempting to change your experience. (I apologize if I'm coming across contentious).

I'm just pointing out, that, as you said yourself, most people don't really feel they can refuse entry without looking suspicious. That's not free choice. Not really.

Why do we have to be "hiding something" if we would rather not invite them into our home?

You found them pleasant and polite but would you have asked them to come in if they hadn't requested it?

If not then they had no business in your house. (imo).

I have stepped outside, to speak with police on a well check. They never tried to come in, there was no reason to, and as I pulled the door shut when I stepped out, I think they knew I wasn't going to ask them in.

I also got caught in a DEA raid once (guys in the apartment below me were dealing), got tossed up against the wall in my hallway and had a gun pointed in face, once they assertained who I was and where I lived, I was able to go back up to my apartment.

Later they knocked and asked me if they could use my place, my phone and windows, as they were still arresting people pulling up to score, and I was fine with that, (they were in and out of my apartment half the night), because we'd been waiting for something to be done about the downstairs neighbors for months.

So it depends. I don't mind, but I'd like to think I could refuse, without feeling like a criminal. If it's such a free country an all.

"I'm just pointing out, that, as you said yourself, most people don't really feel they can refuse entry without looking suspicious. That's not free choice. Not really."

When did I say this. We all have the freedom to choose. I have no idea how most people feel. I know I have the freedom to chose.
You chose to step outside. Your choice. They asked if they come inside, we chose to let them come inside.

​

Freedom to choose. You made your choice, we made ours.
I honestly don't know if we would have invited them in if they hadn't asked.
So your experience with your neighbors and the drugs, the police asking to use your home, now for that I would have said no. Again my choice. And I wouldn't feel like a criminal for saying no.

 

[Safeguard]

"I'm just pointing out, that, as you said yourself, most people don't really feel they can refuse entry without looking suspicious. That's not free choice. Not really."

When did I say this. We all have the freedom to choose. I have no idea how most people feel. I know I have the freedom to chose.
You chose to step outside. Your choice. They asked if they come inside, we chose to let them come inside.

​

Freedom to choose. You made your choice, we made ours.
I honestly don't know if we would have invited them in if they hadn't asked.
So your experience with your neighbors and the drugs, the police asking to use your home, now for that I would have said no. Again my choice. And I wouldn't feel like a criminal for saying no.

Well, It was an inconvenience for sure, but unless you've had the experience of a gang of young Haitian men dealing drugs in your apartment building, you might not understanding my choice.

On the top floor I had the safest vantage point of both the parking lot and the main entrance.

I had to take into consideration the safety of both my friends on lower floors and the officers working for us.

On a nonsense, nosy neighbor well check call, I don't have time for that.

Eta:I didn't say you said you felt pressured, It's just, you did say, you had nothing to hide.

imo that's not the point. We should be free to refuse just because. But your reasoning was (seemed to me) why not let them in, we don't have anything to hide.

I get that.

 

[grammieto5]

Well, It was an inconvenience for sure, but unless you've had the experience of a gang of young Haitian men dealing drugs in your apartment building, you might not understanding my choice.

On the top floor I had the safest vantage point of both the parking lot and the main entrance.

I had to take into consideration the safety of both my friends on lower floors and the officers working for us.

On a nonsense, nosy neighbor well check call, I don't have time for that.

Eta:I didn't say you said you felt pressured, It's just, you did say, you had nothing to hide.

imo that's not the point. We should be free to refuse just because. But your reasoning was (seemed to me) why not let them in, we don't have anything to hide.

I get that.

Oh no, there was no pressure to let them in, not from them, and we had nothing to hide. If we had something to hide, then yes we would not let them in, again that would have been our choice. If we were hiding something then I'm sure my husband would have also, like you gone outside. We're not going to do something that is better hidden from LE and then let them in our home. And we have the freedom to chose to not let them in our home whether we're hiding something or not.

 

[Safeguard]

Here’s a bit of history from another America: the Bill of Rights was designed to protect the people from their government. If the First Amendment’s right to speak out publicly was the people’s wall of security, then the Fourth Amendment’s right to privacy was its buttress.

It was once thought that the government should neither be able to stop citizens from speaking nor peer into their lives. Think of that as the essence of the Constitutional era that ended when those towers came down on September 11, 2001. Consider how privacy worked before 9/11 and how it works now in Post-Constitutional America.

These rights are the foundation of freedom in America, and they get weaker whenever we fail to exercise them.

So... who cares ... just let your pleasant police officers riffle through your house.

You have nothing to hide... or lose... except your constitutional rights which are being eroded little by little...

 

[Safeguard]

"I'm just pointing out, that, as you said yourself, most people don't really feel they can refuse entry without looking suspicious. That's not free choice. Not really."

When did I say this. We all have the freedom to choose. I have no idea how most people feel. I know I have the freedom to chose.
You chose to step outside. Your choice. They asked if they come inside, we chose to let them come inside.

​

Freedom to choose. You made your choice, we made ours.
I honestly don't know if we would have invited them in if they hadn't asked.
So your experience with your neighbors and the drugs, the police asking to use your home, now for that I would have said no. Again my choice. And I wouldn't feel like a criminal for saying no.

So, you wouldn't have assisted LE from cleaning up crime in your building, but your happy to have them in your home for unnecessary reasons. Check!

 

[Sillybilly]

Many posts have been removed.

Please read The Rules.

Racial discussion is NOT allowed. It leads to nothing but bickering and it is one of those social justice issues that will never be resolved by Websleuths members verbally sparring about it.

 

[Charlot123]

The officers would need to know residents phone number to call the resident. I don't think the neighbor who called police knew it, otherwise why didn't he just call them to check if everything was o'key?

The officers can find address by the last name. I assume the phone numbers of tenants could be listed there, too?

 

[Charlot123]

Here’s a bit of history from another America: the Bill of Rights was designed to protect the people from their government. If the First Amendment’s right to speak out publicly was the people’s wall of security, then the Fourth Amendment’s right to privacy was its buttress.

It was once thought that the government should neither be able to stop citizens from speaking nor peer into their lives. Think of that as the essence of the Constitutional era that ended when those towers came down on September 11, 2001. Consider how privacy worked before 9/11 and how it works now in Post-Constitutional America.

These rights are the foundation of freedom in America, and they get weaker whenever we fail to exercise them.

So... who cares ... just let your pleasant police officers riffle through your house.

You have nothing to hide... or lose... except your constitutional rights which are being eroded little by little...

Can I ask you a question related to my only negative experience with the police. Once, a horticulturist working at the neighbors’ yard, parked his van in my driveway. I did not see him behind the thick shrub and hit him backing off from the garage. The fault was his, it is not a parking space, so i took photos of the van, with his coworker sitting at the wheel. He immediately called the police, an old policeman came and read me a lecture about “neighbors keeping quiet”. (There was no altercation even. I don’t yell at anyone). I thought about calling my lawyer, but decided against it weighing lawyer fees against the paltry situation, and thinking that with this company, I’ll end up in minus. The man sitting at the wheel told me that the horticulturist called the police because he was “afraid you’ll sue him, miss”.
Should I have? Because technically, the police should not come to such situations, no guns, not even yelling, residential neighborhood, just me making the photo of his sloppy incorrect parking.

 

[firebird]

Can I ask you a question related to my only negative experience with the police. Once, a horticulturist working at the neighbors’ yard, parked his van in my driveway. I did not see him behind the thick shrub and hit him backing off from the garage. The fault was his, it is not a parking space, so i took photos of the van, with his coworker sitting at the wheel. He immediately called the police, an old policeman came and read me a lecture about “neighbors keeping quiet”. (There was no altercation even. I don’t yell at anyone). I thought about calling my lawyer, but decided against it weighing lawyer fees against the paltry situation, and thinking that with this company, I’ll end up in minus. The man sitting at the wheel told me that the horticulturist called the police because he was “afraid you’ll sue him, miss”.
Should I have? Because technically, the police should not come to such situations, no guns, not even yelling, residential neighborhood, just me making the photo of his sloppy incorrect parking.

Whenever there's an accident involving property damage or bodily injury it's appropriate for the police to respond, if called, to document the scene and take statements from those involved -- if for no other reason than to make sure the insurance company of the party at fault pays for the loss. The man saying he was afraid you would sue him was exactly right. Happens all the time.

 

[Charlot123]

Whenever there's an accident involving property damage or bodily injury it's appropriate for the police to respond, if called, to document the scene and take statements from those involved -- if for no other reason than to make sure the insurance company of the party at fault pays for the loss. The man saying he was afraid you would sue him was exactly right. Happens all the time.

However, the policeman did not even look at the cars. He just told us to be quiet. There was no protocol of the accident. This is the problem... I had the feeling these were two men against one woman. A couple of years later, with women becoming more active, I doubt he’d even come, much less speak to me in a condescending way.

 

[nrdsb4]

However, the policeman did not even look at the cars. He just told us to be quiet. There was no protocol of the accident. This is the problem... I had the feeling these were two men against one woman. A couple of years later, with women becoming more active, I doubt he’d even come, much less speak to me in a condescending way.

That does sound sketchy! I was involved in a non injury car accident recently. I was driving in the center lane of a city street, minding my own business, when a woman pulled out of a shopping center and broadsided me. She apologized but claimed she hadn't seen me coming. She seemed to be dragging her feet on giving me her driver's license (she did provide her insurance card), so I called the police. An officer came very quickly, took all our information, and cited the other driver for failure to yield. I'm glad I had all that documentation to present to the insurance companies. The officer said calling was completely appropriate.

 

[nrdsb4]

^^^Worse thing about the above incident:

I had just traded in a 5 year old car for a 2020 model and had only been driving it for a couple of weeks.