IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand

[IceIce9]

There was tabled seating near those cruise line windows. What if an older child decided to stand on a table or chair to get a better view out the window because the railing blocked his view? There should be no open windows accessible to children on a cruise ship just as there should be no live gators lurking in the water next to a children's beach. To me, it is common sense.

JMO

There were no open windows accessible to children. Parents are responsible for watching their children and should have enough common sense to know that children should not be held up in an open window, sat on a rail in front of an open window, or dangled out an open window.

The “banging on the window like at a hockey game” excuse was an afterthought. The photo of Chloe at the hockey game showed her banging on the window at her level, not being held to bang up high above.

Whatever the scenario turns out to be, grandpa is at fault for not being a responsible caregiver.

I want to see the video of grandpa from the time he boarded the ship until the incident.

 

[LvsAMystry]

That's your opinion. If there was a baby seated on the railing--and absolutely no warning posted about the railing or the windows--then that is the fault of the business owner, not the family of the child.

There are ample laws in place about attractive nuisances. A cruise line is not exempt from following the law.

JMO

A window open or closed or even the railing would not fall under the attractive nuisance doctrine, particularly given the fact that Chloe or any child couldn’t reach either of these things on their own.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

snipped by me

If that happened to an older child, it still wouldn’t be the cruise lines’ fault IMO. Depending on what age is older, it’s either the parent’s or guardian’s responsibility or a dumbass teenager’s fault.

The top of the boat is open and I’m sure there are other windows that open on other decks and on other ships. We do not have children falling out of ship windows every day.

The window was only accessible to Chloe because her grandfather made it accessible to her. JMO

What if Chloe's parents/grandparents had balcony staterooms? Balcony doors slide open/closed rather easily, and there is usually furniture on passenger balconies, i.e. table and chairs, loungers, foot stools depending on the size of the
balcony. Balconies have 4' railing with glass below. Would Chloe have been allowed to bang on the balcony glass or sit on the railing?

As I've suggested previously, I got the impression that this family group had not cruised previously. Chloe's mother commented that she "thought there would be water on both sides of the ship" and was surprised when she looked down at the dock after Chloe fell that there wasn't water. Had she already forgotten that they embarked Freedom of the Seas from the cruise terminal on land, not on the water? The ship hadn't set sail yet, so there was land on the dock side of the ship and water on the other side. There isn't water on both sides of the vessel until you're at sea or if the ship is anchored in ports where there is no dock/terminal or the port is inaccessible to large vessels.

 

[SeattleStew]

Are we certain that it was an upper window that dear Chloe fell from? In the video tour of the cruise ship, there are also lower windows, and the one I've tried to capture via screenshot here looks like it has a handle for opening. Maybe the rail she fell from is the foot rail and not the hand rail???

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

...Guests are not exempt from the rules of the ship, which they had been given copies of weeks before even getting on the boat and reminded of within hours prior to the incident, especially the one that rails are not to be climbed or sat on. GF broke the rule of common sense and the cruise line...

It's my understanding that the muster (safety) drill was going to be held later in the evening after sail-away. Guests are advised at that time about safety onboard, smoking rules, supervision of children, procedures for evacuation in case of emergency, etc. Grandpa should not have needed a reminder or formal instructions about the safety of little Chloe, and his actions were reckless, but the safety drill had not yet taken place on this voyage. I posted the passenger contract information for RCCL a few pages back, and, yes, ticketed passengers are expected to read the contract and adhere to it during their time onboard the vessel. The multi-page document is tedious with plenty of legalese, and I'm sure many folks don't bother. Given that SA doesn't adhere to driver safety rules like wearing a seatbelt, I doubt that he would have paid much attention to any safety instructions while onboard the ship.

 

[SeattleStew]

I meant this screenshot of lower window.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

...Are we certain that it was an upper window that dear Chloe fell from? In the video tour of the cruise ship, there are also lower windows, and the one I've tried to capture via screenshot here looks like it has a handle for opening. Maybe the rail she fell from is the foot rail and not the hand rail???

Chloe could have banged on the lower glass or looked out lower windows without Grandpa holding or lifting her. Most reports indicate that SA held Chloe up to a window. She was either standing or seating on the railing or, by some accounts, seated on the window sill.

 

[oviedo]

Are we certain that it was an upper window that dear Chloe fell from? In the video tour of the cruise ship, there are also lower windows, and the one I've tried to capture via screenshot here looks like it has a handle for opening. Maybe the rail she fell from is the foot rail and not the hand rail???

I've cruised many times on RCCL and never have I seen the lower windows open - all of the reports I have read say she was lifted up and sat upon the railing. In the dailymail article linked upthread there is a picture of the outside of the ship with a window circled however I do not know if that is indeed the exact one she fell out of.

 

[Lilibet]

View attachment 212693

I meant this screenshot of lower window.

I see that window, but it doesn’t look to me like something that could be opened, other than by crew. As BDE has noted below, reports are that grandpa lifted her up to bang on the window and it was open.

Chloe could have banged on the lower glass or looked out lower windows without Grandpa holding or lefting her. Most reports indicate that SA help Chloe up to a window. She was either standing or seated on the railing or, by some accounts, seated on the window sill.

Here is a photo of the window Chloe fell from. The part you refer to is below that window.

Parents of tragic cruise ship toddler stand by grandfather as he's charged

 

[they'll get you]

Chloe could have banged on the lower glass or looked out lower windows without Grandpa holding or lifting her. Most reports indicate that SA held Chloe up to a window. She was either standing or seating on the railing or, by some accounts, seated on the window sill.

That poor baby.

 

[Kindred]

View attachment 212693

I meant this screenshot of lower window.

That doesn't look like the other windows, besides the verticle bars it also isn't flush like it would slide open like the ones in the middle row.

This is only a guess on my part, but it might be something that they open up during storms/very rough seas to allow water that has accumulated on the open deck to drain off into the sea. If that's the case it would be something only crew could open and the bars would be to keep anything from being swept out with the water. This is only speculation of course.

 

[they'll get you]

I see that window, but it doesn’t look to me like something that could be opened, other than by crew. As BDE has noted below, reports are that grandpa lifted her up to bang on the window and it was open.



Here is a photo of the window Chloe fell from. The part you refer to is below that window.
View attachment 212698
Parents of tragic cruise ship toddler stand by grandfather as he's charged

Damn that’s a good pick up!

 

[they'll get you]

It's my understanding that the muster (safety) drill was going to be held later in the evening after sail-away. Guests are advised at that time about safety onboard, smoking rules, supervision of children, procedures for evacuation in case of emergency, etc. Grandpa should not have needed a reminder or formal instructions about the safety of little Chloe, and his actions were reckless, but the safety drill had not yet taken place on this voyage. I posted the passenger contract information for RCCL a few pages back, and, yes, ticketed passengers are expected to read the contract and adhere to it during their time onboard the vessel. The multi-page document is tedious with plenty of legalese, and I'm sure many folks don't bother. Given that SA doesn't adhere to driver safety rules like wearing a seatbelt, I doubt that he would have paid much attention to any safety instructions while onboard the ship.

IIRC the drill is done before the ship leaves port.
I’ll be on the Voyager in 6 weeks so know for sure.

In ships in which the voyage exceeds one week in duration a complete drill shall be held before leaving port, and others thereafter at least once a week during the voyage
https://www.he-alert.org/filemanager/root/site_assets/standalone_article_pdfs_0905-/he01195.pdf

 

[Kakidoll]

I cruise frequently. I unfortunately was on a Carnival ship when a child drowned. He was with sibling, supposedly some family were up there but parents were in cabin. PARENTS HAVE TO BE MORE RESPONSIBLE. Yes, changes have been made to the pools, but I don't care. You are STILL responsible to watch your own children. This is not daycare. A ship has thousands of people on it. Unless you put them IN the babysitting area (camp, whatever) they should not leave your side. I see kids out running alone ALL the time. At ALL ages.

Grandpa was fully at fault here. And i truly believe if they had NOT initiated a lawsuit and put blame on the cruiseline SO FAST, there would be no lawsuit. But the family took NO responsibility. NONE. Blame, Blame, Blame. Make Excuses and go for the deep pockets. You HAVE to do something stupid to go overboard. And i see a LOT of stupid on cruise ships.

 

[oviedo]

This may have been posted already but it is a video of the children's play area on Freedom - you can see how distant the windows are from it. JMO

 

[Lilibet]

I cruise frequently. I unfortunately was on a Carnival ship when a child drowned. He was with sibling, supposedly some family were up there but parents were in cabin. PARENTS HAVE TO BE MORE RESPONSIBLE. Yes, changes have been made to the pools, but I don't care. You are STILL responsible to watch your own children. This is not daycare. A ship has thousands of people on it. Unless you put them IN the babysitting area (camp, whatever) they should not leave your side. I see kids out running alone ALL the time. At ALL ages.

<snip for focus>

You HAVE to do something stupid to go overboard. And i see a LOT of stupid on cruise ships.

Standing ovation! And I’m so sorry you experienced the death of a child on a cruise. The video of the kids’ pool area shows how much activity and running around goes on. It would take total concentration to keep track of your child. What people don’t realize is that drownings are quiet and are so easy to overlook, even with a conscientious parent looking on.

And we all know that a “lightly supervised” child is a target for predators. So parents, watch your kids or hire a responsible nanny for the trip...please.

8 Silent but Deadly Signs of Someone Drowning

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

IIRC the drill is done before the ship leaves port.
I’ll be on the Voyager in 6 weeks so know for sure.

In ships in which the voyage exceeds one week in duration a complete drill shall be held before leaving port, and others thereafter at least once a week during the voyage
https://www.he-alert.org/filemanager/root/site_assets/standalone_article_pdfs_0905-/he01195.pdf

Wasn't the ship sailing in the evening, 8:00 or 8:30PM? Muster usually takes place when embarkation is over and all passengers are onboard. Chloe's tragic fall took place in the late afternoon, so there probably had not been a safety drill prior to the incident. No matter. Grandpa's actions were reckless; he should have known better than to hold a toddler up to an open window, let alone let her stand or sit on the railing or window sill.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Does anyone recall having seen a timeline of the family's travel to San Juan? Had they flown to San Juan a day or two prior to the cruise date? Did they fly directly to San Juan, or did they have a layover in another city? Did they stay overnight and complete the trip to San Juan the following day? I haven't cruised from San Juan for more than 20 years but had been on two cruises from PR previously. Travel to PR was on flights from Detroit with layover once in Atlanta and the other in Houston before flying on to San Juan - probably about 10-12 hours total travel time. It was exhausting! Return flights didn't leave San Juan until late at night with layovers again and finally arriving in Detroit late morning.

Knowing the family's travel schedule would help to know whether or not SA was overly tired. I read that embarkation started at @11:00AM. What time did the family board the ship? What did they do during their early hours onboard? I suppose all of this information will come out at trial, if there is a trial, but it would be helpful to know about the family's travel schedule and onboard activities prior to Chloe's tragic fall.

 

[IceIce9]

Are we certain that it was an upper window that dear Chloe fell from? In the video tour of the cruise ship, there are also lower windows, and the one I've tried to capture via screenshot here looks like it has a handle for opening. Maybe the rail she fell from is the foot rail and not the hand rail???

Several articles have mentioned that the window was 5 feet off the ground, and that she was held up by her grandfather.

 

[Kindred]

Does anyone recall having seen a timeline of the family's travel to San Juan? Had they flown to San Juan a day or two prior to the cruise date? Did they fly directly to San Juan, or did they have a layover in another city? Did they stay overnight and complete the trip to San Juan the following day? I haven't cruised from San Juan for more than 20 years but had been on two cruises from PR previously. Travel to PR was on flights from Detroit with layover once in Atlanta and the other in Houston before flying on to San Juan - probably about 10-12 hours total travel time. It was exhausting! Return flights didn't leave San Juan until late at night with layovers again and finally arriving in Detroit late morning.

Knowing the family's travel schedule would help to know whether or not SA was overly tired. I read that embarkation started at @11:00AM. What time did the family board the ship? What did they do during their early hours onboard? I suppose all of this information will come out at trial, if there is a trial, but it would be helpful to know about the family's travel schedule and onboard activities prior to Chloe's tragic fall.

I haven't seen anything about when or how long they'd been in PR before this, but I know from driving my parents to cruise ships leaving from the continental US that boarding is pretty much an all-day process. They didn't have to be there before dawn but still had to be at the port prior to noon to get through ticketing and all the other stuff even prior to getting on the ship. They had probably at the very least been in PR for a day prior to this one and stayed at a hotel nearby to make sure they could make the boat on time.