Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

[tresir2012]

Thank you, but I'm more confused than ever. Further down in the article it says:

"“Now, as the investigation has matured and past information has been reassessed,” ISP’s release said, “it is the belief of investigators with the Multi-Agency Task Force that the person depicted in the sketch released on April 22 more accurately represents the person wanted for the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German.”

To my old and tired eyes, the new sketch bears no resemblance to the man in the video. If nothing else, look at the chins.

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We are all confused but we have to ignore the old sketch based on what LE have said. That appears to be what their later "clarifications" indicate.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

RE: Carter's reference to the movie The Shack

There have been several things that have stood out to me about this reference Carter made and none are directly related to religion, as I am looking at this from a different angle. Perhaps parallels between this crime and the movie can be theoretically drawn if one looks hard enough for them.

All JMO and thoughts here.....

the serial killer aspect (we have often compared this case to Elizabeth and Lyric's case in Iowa) this has been contemplated here many times. I believe that the 6000 billboards in 46 states early on demonstrates the possibility that LE did not consider this to be just a 'local person' in plain sight in the beginning.

there was a 'signature' left behind (a ladybug pin, the SK had been named 'Little Ladykiller') Could the killer in Abby and Libby's case have left something behind deliberately as a message to LE that they had left at another crime scene previously? A letter? An item?

the killer marked a 'trail' for LE to follow (red arcs on trees and rocks) Just musing, could something similar have occurred in Abby and Libby's crime as well? Something that was found after the crime scene was secured that LE discovered?

the discovery of Missy's clothing inside a Shack (a possible second crime scene where personal items belonging to the girls had been found which has been kept 'under wraps' in msm?)

one of Missy's shoes was found in the bushes had been kicked off in the struggle while she was being abducted (Libby's shoe had been found on the private road/driveway prior to the discovery of hers and Abby's bodies )

Just putting some of these thoughts out there as the religious aspect has been much-discussed here, but some of these other ideas have either only been lightly touched on or maybe not discussed at all.

The possibility of a 'copycat' has been mentioned in other circles as well. Could the killer in this crime have tried to 'copycat' certain aspects from the book/movie The Shack?

All JMO, speculation and thoughts that popped into my head when I read some of the posts before mine.

Edited for grammar and clarity

 

[busymcmoody]

Murders like this often have a trigger, and it seems like he had extreme anger towards women or a particular woman for whom Abby and Libby were surrogates.
I would be looking for A) someone wwas fired by a female boss or because of a complaint from a female OR B) someone whose wife just filed for divorce or whose girlfriend just ditched him OR C) someone whose wife or mother was trying to control his life in some significant way.
Because of LE's comments that this was about control, the controlling female option is the most likely one.

There is another option - that he just got off on the thrill.

 

[tresir2012]

I think it was @Charlot123 who said that BG could have some kind of mask or nylon over his face. I found the idea totally wild at first but the face is more blurred than ie. his jacket or jeans where you can actually see folds and movement. You can make out details except on his face.

Perhaps he was rambling on and talking to himself so his jaw could have been moving or may have been chewing tobacco. Some posters think he moves his head in a spitting motion.

 

[taximama24]

There was nothing mentioned about the murder of the victim except her dress and blood was found in The Shack. She was abducted when his back was turned and she was coloring at a picnic table while they were camping with a group of Believers. Her father, in his grief, loses his faith. He receives an anonymous note from "poppa" which is what his daughter (the victim) called God. The note invites him to the shack. He "borrows" his neighbor's (Tim McGraw) SUV to make the trip to the remote location. He goes with the hope the murderer will return and he can confront/kill him. Instead he meets the personification of the Trinity. God (Octavia Spencer no less), Jesus (an Arab looking actor) and the Holy Spirit (an asian actress). Through their guidance he works through his grief and reaffirms his faith.

Definitely different ways to come at it. DC is a fairly high ranking LE professional, this case is being worked by several prominent LE agencies, the April PC was completely "on the record" direct from LE communication for this case, no way no how could anyone convince me that he went off script from official case business to include something based on his personal faith and emotion. So for me, the mention of The Shack was fully intentional and served a purpose. Based on your summary, we could conclude that the mention of The Shack was their way of letting BG know they know he hid out in a shack for some time, or letting others read between the lines and come to that conclusions. Or they could have been letting BG know that they know they found his bloody clothes in some type of outhouse. Based on what everyone is saying about The Shack being played in the Delphi area or in church groups, or maybe someone close to BG they know was a particular fan of the movie, I think its probably more likely that they are pulling at the faith filled heartstrings of those close to BG to reaffirm their faith and turn BG in so he can repent this mortal sin and be absolved. The timing of the PC being the day after Easter, the holiday for Christians that is centered upon Christ's passion, death, and resurrection so that we may be forgiven for our sins seems more in line with this purpose too. And I'm of the mindset they believe BG or his family have those faith filled heartstrings to pull, or that they are just banking on it because of its prevalence in the area, and he is imploring them to let themselves be guided by their faith into doing what's right.

 

[taximama24]

I've always been curious about that search. After the April PC, one of the investigators said they were probably on to something early on. That search was always the first thing that came to my mind.

It could also be a reference to the new sketch, which the LE sketch artist has said was drawn within the first few days. For some reason they shelved, and have now not only released it but are certain it is the person responsible for the murders.

 

[busymcmoody]

Perhaps he was rambling on and talking to himself so his jaw could have been moving or may have been chewing tobacco. Some posters think he moves his head in a spitting motion.

Possible, although I don't see it. The thing that gets to me is that there must have been something that must have triggered a spidey sense in Libby to take that video. But I keep wondering why she didn't call anyone or dial 911. Maybe she didn't have the chance. Maybe BG didn't look as threatening at first and it was just a weird feeling she had.

 

[Charlot123]

They're saying just the opposite--that he may look younger than his actual age.


I don't think he's wearing a mask, but it looks like the collar of his parka is folded up over his chin, making his face look shorter and squarer than it actually is. It wasn't very cold out, so if he was hiding his lower face, that suggests premeditation. I don't think he targeted Abby and Libby specifically, but I think he intended to find someone to murder that day.

In fact, I think it is either a very thin scarf, or something like a nylon stocking with the opening for the face, that covers the hair and the lower part of the face. I think the guy did not want to shed his DNA, but I think he, eventually, did.

 

[taximama24]

Definitely different ways to come at it. DC is a fairly high ranking LE professional, this case is being worked by several prominent LE agencies, the April PC was completely "on the record" direct from LE communication for this case, no way no how could anyone convince me that he went off script from official case business to include something based on his personal faith and emotion. So for me, the mention of The Shack was fully intentional and served a purpose. Based on your summary, we could conclude that the mention of The Shack was their way of letting BG know they know he hid out in a shack for some time, or letting others read between the lines and come to that conclusions. Or they could have been letting BG know that they know they found his bloody clothes in some type of outhouse. Based on what everyone is saying about The Shack being played in the Delphi area or in church groups, or maybe someone close to BG they know was a particular fan of the movie, I think its probably more likely that they are pulling at the faith filled heartstrings of those close to BG to reaffirm their faith and turn BG in so he can repent this mortal sin and be absolved. The timing of the PC being the day after Easter, the holiday for Christians that is centered upon Christ's passion, death, and resurrection so that we may be forgiven for our sins seems more in line with this purpose too. And I'm of the mindset they believe BG or his family have those faith filled heartstrings to pull, or that they are just banking on it because of its prevalence in the area, and he is imploring them to let themselves be guided by their faith into doing what's right.

Oh I forgot, I was also thinking that they could have some reason to believe this killing was some type of "punishment" for the girls for some sin BG perceived they committed, and his reference to the girls being "not how you left them" may mean that they are in heaven and do not have the eternal punishment BG felt he may have been inflicting. Again, it seemed like they were trying to provoke a reaction out of BG, and if BG is religious and they know that, they maybe intended to strike a nerve.

 

[tresir2012]

I've always been curious about that search. After the April PC, one of the investigators said they were probably on to something early on. That search was always the first thing that came to my mind.

They also checked all the RSO's early on using lie detector and alibis to rule them out IIRC. They could also be referring to that when they say they were onto something early on. Plus, they searched the property of the homeowner where the girls' bodies were found as well as other properties. They appeared to rule out a lot of people early on. JMO.

 

[taximama24]

Possible, although I don't see it. The thing that gets to me is that there must have been something that must have triggered a spidey sense in Libby to take that video. But I keep wondering why she didn't call anyone or dial 911. Maybe she didn't have the chance. Maybe BG didn't look as threatening at first and it was just a weird feeling she had.

She wasn't able to call once she realized something was nefarious about BG because she had her camera activated. I'm not arguing the hero complex being projected on to Libby, as an innocent victim, but with all due respect to her I'd venture to say I'm not so sure she intended to record this person as evidence per se, I think she was using her camera to be able to zoom in on him and see if they knew him (which is why I think the quality is so horrid, the zoom feature on phone cameras terribly pixelates) or to "watch" him to see if he did anything. I tend to think the first, I think that either they were going there with the intention of meeting up with someone and he didn't appear to be someone they expected so they zoomed in to get a closer look (I've used my phone to try and identify people I wasn't confident was who I was expecting before!) or he did something that surprised them (maybe called their names from far away and they didn't recognize him) and they were confused and wanted to try and figure out who he was before he got closer.

 

[Charlot123]

On a completely different note.....I was out to lunch the other day and this guy (teen) walked past with wiry rust colored hair combed straight forward over his forhead like some have seen on BG. As he passed he shook his head then touched his hair as if to make certain it stayed in place. Kinda freaked me out. I wonder if this cut has a name and what types of boys/men are wearing it?

I think someone needs to interview the local hairdresser. These cuts were incredibly popular among Delphi youths for a few years. Maybe even now. I think the hairdresser could give some ideas, or recognize some "finishing details".

 

[Charlot123]

Oh I forgot, I was also thinking that they could have some reason to believe this killing was some type of "punishment" for the girls for some sin BG perceived they committed, and his reference to the girls being "not how you left them" may mean that they are in heaven and do not have the eternal punishment BG felt he may have been inflicting. Again, it seemed like they were trying to provoke a reaction out of BG, and if BG is religious and they know that, they maybe intended to strike a nerve.

I ran across this idea a few times, and if this post is hinting at what I think it is, then, really, why start with two teenage girls? Delphi, as any town, is probably full of people who are committing the same "sin" (not a sin at all in my opinion, but I can see how some would view it).

No, attacking two very young, unprotected, women, is cowardly. This is all that is to it. He won't ever dare attack two men.

 

[taximama24]

I ran across this idea a few times, and if this post is hinting at what I think it is, then, really, why start with two teenage girls? Delphi, as any town, is probably full of people who are committing the same "sin" (not a sin at all in my opinion, but I can see how some would view it).

No, attacking two very young, unprotected, women, is cowardly. This is all that is to it. He won't ever dare to attack two men.

Oh I was not speculating on anything in particular as a sin or even what that potential sin could be, I was speculating that perhaps he considered himself to be administering punishment for something unknown that he justifies as sin based on the impassioned statement "they are not how you left them" and what that could mean to BG. I don't presume any of us would find whatever thought process BG had to justify his murder was logical, I'm just trying to think about different nuggets that might help build the profile of who this is.

 

[Charlot123]

Here is some new information about DNA just to explain how difficult the whole issue is, how little we know and why "having DNA" may not be enough.

Latest news: Fathers can pass mitochondrial DNA to children.

No one knows how common it is as the cases have been described in conjunction with "mitochondrial disorders". But think of this. Let us say, we have a DNA. And the person is adopted without anyone around knowing it, or it is a non-paternal event. I always thought that "good old mito DNA" is something to rely on. These cases show that, not necessarily.

Just because of several high-profile cases, don't rely on DNA leading you to the killer. The more we know...

Fathers Can Pass Mitochondrial DNA to Children

 

[Charlot123]

Oh I was not speculating on anything in particular as a sin or even what that potential sin could be, I was speculating that perhaps he considered himself to be administering punishment for something unknown that he justifies as sin based on the impassioned statement "they are not how you left them" and what that could mean to BG. I don't presume any of us would find whatever thought process BG had to justify his murder was logical, I'm just trying to think about different nuggets that might help build the profile of who this is.

Either way, he is nuts. And I think he is becoming nuttier. Either drinks, or behaves in a psychotic way, or something else. He is around, but I don't think he is enjoying his life.

 

[Falling Down]

I do think the key is refocusing on the things going on very early after the murders. LE suggests that in the quote you mentioned. There were a lot of little things going on...asking about hitchhikers, mentioning possible duffle bags, etc...and I think, at least I know I was, distracted by the picture of BG and the audio clip.
Also, many people have talked about LE knowing the killer and now just dotting i’s and crossing t’s, etc and I never bought into that. Until today. I read an article about a four year old quadruple murder in my state and the sheriff 1) hints of sloppy police work at the beginning and having to overcome that 2) knowing who did it but because of the early problems needing to polish things up with extra info before they make an arrest.
I think that may be what we’re looking at here in Delphi.

Very much a possibility, plus they're now insisting it's someone from the immediate area or someone very familiar with that part of Carroll County.

Early on references were made to a possible hitch hiker, and maybe someone carrying a backpack or other bag of some sort or another. I never thought the former, but the latter is a possibility.

Then the bogus sketch came out and threw people off. I never thought the BG could be much over age 40, yet here we were convinced it was some (using a phrase I've picked up since living here) ate up older middle-aged guy who's angry enough to want to go around murdering teens, when in reality we could be looking at someone around half the age of what we thought.

I think there's a real possibility LE were thrown off in the beginning, could have been a tip that sounded suggestive in nature, but who knows? I just have a hard time reconciling the vehicle parked by C.R. 300 and LE not mentioning it early on. Just seems weird to me, and one would think they would have wanted to get information about the identity of its owner or whoever was driving it. This is not new information, it was known early on and LE sat on it.

Which brings to mind another issue, and it just kind of popped into my head. Why wouldn't they be hungry for information on the vehicle and its driver early on, vs. releasing the poor audio released a week after the murders? Not just poor audio, but they released "down the hill" without "Guys". Why not just hold on to the audio for a bit, and instead focus on the vehicle and other pertinent stuff early on? Makes no sense to me.

No mention of a vehicle for over two years. Even if they had a detailed description, they could have just asked about a vehicle being parked there.

Here we were thinking BG was some ate up older guy with major issues in his life, when in reality it could be a young-looking and sounding young man. This whole time. 100+ threads later.

Let this year be the year, for the victims in this case, their families, their community.

 

[Charlot123]

NASA took over the enhancement of the video. His image was actually very small in the video and by zooming in as much as was possible, this played havoc with the pixels. I believe the man in the video is the man on the bridge.

First sketch:
“Police say the person depicted in the composite sketch is described as a while male between 5’6” to 5’10”, weighing 180 to 220 pounds, with reddish brown hair. The eye color is unknown, but according to one witness, his eyes are not blue. Additionally, this sketch depicts a hat that may not be accurate”.

Two years later this morphed into "18 to 40 but may appear younger than his true age" and "more accurately depicts the face of the suspect" recorded on Libby's phone.

How sure are they of the height? I think some people might fit, but they are 6'. This description effectively cuts them off. I am not sure it is the case.

 

[busymcmoody]

Here is some new information about DNA just to explain how difficult the whole issue is, how little we know and why "having DNA" may not be enough.

Latest news: Fathers can pass mitochondrial DNA to children.

No one knows how common it is as the cases have been described in conjunction with "mitochondrial disorders". But think of this. Let us say, we have a DNA. And the person is adopted without anyone around knowing it, or it is a non-paternal event. I always thought that "good old mito DNA" is something to rely on. These cases show that, not necessarily.

Just because of several high-profile cases, don't rely on DNA leading you to the killer. The more we know...

Fathers Can Pass Mitochondrial DNA to Children

Thanks for the article. We'll see how frequent this really is.

 

[Falling Down]

How sure are they of the height? I think some people might fit, but they are 6'. This description effectively cuts them off. I am not sure it is the case.

Comparisons by some experts here on WS have been made between the general height of BG and the spacing between the boards which run on top of the ties on the bridge. People have gone out there and measured the spacing, then people oriented the BG screen shots released to the public, and figured out a general range of what his height might be.

I think he's between 5'8" and 5'10", but that's JMO.

Good post.