Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

[ACE422]

I have a theory I'd like to share. I'm going to type out sort of a 'shell' of a theory - many blanks to fill in, but I'll give the gist of it. I hope you all can bear with me while I lay this out. It might make sense to you at the end.

There's a certain someone in the internet true crime sleuthing community who is asserting a two perp scenario that involves a father and son. Maybe some of you are familiar with it. At first, I didn't give it any thought because it just sounds so far-fetched. But the more I think about it the more I see a real possibility that this could be it. Here's why. This was the day before Valentine's Day. What if the girls were lured there by a boy that one of them had been 'seeing', or had been 'talking to', and the promise of something sweet but daring compelled the girls to go? The Deer Creek area would provide cover for a secret meeting and the girls would have felt comfortable going there together buddy system style. For whatever reason, the visit didn't go well and I don't want to speculate as to why, since the possibilities are endless. But what if the boy that they met there became angry over something and he lost his temper and hurt one or both of the girls? What if the boy became scared by what he had done and called the only person he could trust to help him? His own father. Sounds crazy, right? Maybe. However......

Does anyone remember the Natalee Holloway case? Joran Van Der Sloot? He called his father for help after a night of drinking with Natalee "went bad". And his father was a local judge! Maybe the father/son theory isn't so crazy after all. Some people who enjoy a respected station in life, in their community often feel a sense of entitlement.......and an intense desire for self-preservation. Maybe that's what motivates this crime to go unsolved. Maybe it motivated the crimes to begin with.

As I said, I'm deliberately leaving some blank spaces because all we can do is speculate on the details. But I'm fairly convinced that this could be the outline of the truth to what happened to Abby and Libby.

Edited to add: I've always wondered how someone could do double murder at this location, seemingly unconcerned about trail cams or some kind of security surveillance. Maybe the perp is so familiar to the area and knew for a fact that there were no trail cams or security cameras?

I have considered this same scenario. Since it is such a small community, it is also pretty common to know when neighbors or certain community members may be out of town. I do feel certain the responsible person(s) is/are local to the area and have a strong suspicion that someone who knows “something” is in a position to be able to influence the direction of the investigation. MOO

 

[Charlot123]

If LE thinks BG is “different” since the murders, what can that possibly mean?
Kelsi had an interesting response, in a podcast, when asked if she fears BG.
I can not remember exactly what she said but it made me think she believes bg is somehow changed.
I am wondering what kind of change could make bg less dangerous/evil.

About being different, the list could be infinite. You add what you think.
- Someone gained or lost a lot of weight.
- Someone very clean and with a keen sense of fashion becomes disheveled, malodorous and uncaring about his looks
- Someone is very pale because he is spending a lot of time at home.
- Someone talkative became silent and withdrawn.
- Someone social, funny and gregarious became very isolated.
- Someone merely looks depressed, or ill.
- A womanizer became a homebody.
- Someone is drinking or into drugs. This would be very common.
- Someone became sober and goes to AA.
- Someone who was a "bad boy" is now into religion and became altruistic.

(My personal guess? This dude is slowly drinking himself into his grave. Maybe this is what he should keep on doing, only not to forget to leave a confession on his death bed. Historically, the most typical way to cope with suddenly awaken conscience. War criminals often discovered religion during trials, so this is not excluded, either).

But if anything, this "someone" was well-known. And I presume, the change is negative, but not necessarily bad (that a narcissistic person who was all about himself is now depressed and drinking - this at least could indicate some pangs of remorse; and it means that he is not in denial of what he has done).

On the other hand, DC's hint is meant for the relatives, partners, or friends. The change is so visible that everyone has noticed it. This tells me that the person used to be in the public eye. That he stands out somehow. Because someone must have told DC, oh, such-and-such? Just look at him.

Kelsi was taken aback by the question. For a second, she hesitated. And then said, no, and about the change. To me, it meant, she definitely did not think the person was SK and she definitely had her own POI.

To add: since I don't exclude two people involved, the one who is the smarter, the mastermind, might have changed way more than the one who was the passive follower.

 

[insearchoflight]

I don't think they have a clue who BG is. If they did, they would have arrested him already. If they didn't have an airtight case, they would obtain a confession via interrogation. They would not sit around for nearly 3 years and not arrest the perpetrator if they had an inkling who he was.

And I agree, the April press conference was pretty strange.

I agree here. I think if they were able to obtain BG’s DNA from the crime scene, he isn’t on file and his family members are also not on file or any genealogical database. I think this will go like so many cold cases unsolved until BG gets his DNA on record for another offense or a family member happens to get his/hers on record or put theirs on an ancestry type site.

 

[ACE422]

So, your comment prompted me to do a bit of brief googling about the recording. Before, I was under the impression that LE had a substantial chunk of audio/video recovered from Libby's phone. Something like 20-30 minutes' worth. No clue where I got that impression.

Then I found this quote from an article written in August 2017:

“[the recording] does not appear to be anything more than some discussion between the girls. We have only released a portion of it. There are some others we think could help us but again protecting the integrity of the investigation is key so we cannot release everything because there are certain people that know the details and if we release it all then we get into false confessions,” said Sgt. Holeman.
​

We also know from this article (also from 2017) that the girls mentioned BG or "the man behind them" in the recording.

MOO but I think the recording is not as damning as everyone hopes. Lots of people believe the murder itself was recorded but I doubt it. From Holeman's statement above, it sounds like it's mostly the girls chatting, a mention or two of BG, and other stuff that "could help" i.e. clips like "down the hill". I think Libby put her phone away quickly as soon as BG came too close for comfort, and the rest of the recording is muffled and hard to decipher. And/or like you said, BG confiscated the phone and left it on the bridge.

LE has never confirmed/denied whether "guys" and "down the hill" were spliced together or sequential in the original recording. The change in tone of voice makes me think it was spliced. So it's possible that those four words are the only clips LE has been able to decipher so far. I still don't understand why LE released the "guys" audio at the presser back in April. Perhaps just to frighten BG by being able to say they're releasing new audio? Perhaps because they're running the audio through filters piece-by-piece to make it hearable, and "guys" was the latest result? Who knows.

What made me wonder what all was captured on audio was LE claim that it was over quickly and DC stating “paraphrasing from memory) that he would always think about what the girls went through, especially last 30 minutes of their life . MOO

 

[Trebor5591]

After looking at the image

of the Bridge Guy taken by Libby German, I think he will be someone who resembles the actor William David Daniels, who used to play the surgeon on St. Elsewhere in the 1980's.

 

[Hansen]

I agree here. I think if they were able to obtain BG’s DNA from the crime scene, he isn’t on file and his family members are also not on file or any genealogical database. I think this will go like so many cold cases unsolved until BG gets his DNA on record for another offense or a family member happens to get his/hers on record or put theirs on an ancestry type site.

I agree. Not to be negative but I think this case is slowly becoming cold. Is it possible LE has the giant case we don’t know about and waiting for a break? Yes it is. It’s also possible they have pieces to this but nothing concrete. “Guys, down the hill” has only spawned thousands of ideas of people’s guesses on dialect etc. the video/pic is so grainy you can’t make it out. Let’s hope for the best.

 

[busymcmoody]

A reddit user took pics and videos of the trails and bridge in the beginning of November. Not sure if I can link to reddit to credit the user so I won't for now.

 

[moonlessnight]

I think this is a highly likely scenario, if the crime was targeted. I don't know if the girls knew who they would be meeting, but I do think they had some idea they could meet up with someone there. They may not have known that the person whose cover they could blow was meeting them there - but they may have been set up by him. But he may have planned it to punish them for potentially outing his abuse of some other victim(s).

I'm beginning to wonder if someone the girls both knew, moreso Libby, was confiding in her about abuse, be it sexual and/or physical, which is why then she factory reset her phone? Maybe the victim found out that the abuser was aware of the conversations and told Libby but it was too little too late? Then the "meet up" was supposed to be a confrontation to find out how much of the beans had been spilled about the abuse? Maybe potential friend is covering for a parent or uncle out of fear? Amateur speculation. Moo.

 

[tresir2012]

Agreed. Sketches only seem to cause public awareness to skyrocket, for better or for worse, IMO. And make it easier for Facebook detectives to prove that BG is actually their neighbor's dogsitter (/s)


What strikes me about the two sketches is that the first one was so detailed. Unlike most perp sketches (including the new one), it looked like a real person; I could commit that face to memory and recognize him in public easily. Compare that to the second one, which looks like they told the artist, "hey, we need a white male, ambiguous age, with short wiry hair" and that was the result. This makes me think LE had a specific person in mind, not just an eyewitness description, when they made the first sketch. MOO. Maybe the first sketch was just drawn by a better artist.

OTOH, the first sketch looks so much like BG in the video...maybe they commissioned an artist to do a sketch based on whatever blurry details they could make out?

Maybe they used DNA to create the sketch and just made it younger or older based on witness testimony only or the BG video .

 

[tresir2012]

I think this is a highly likely scenario, if the crime was targeted. I don't know if the girls knew who they would be meeting, but I do think they had some idea they could meet up with someone there. They may not have known that the person whose cover they could blow was meeting them there - but they may have been set up by him. But he may have planned it to punish them for potentially outing his abuse of some other victim(s).

I do think there is a real possibility this could be the motive for the murders. MOO

 

[tresir2012]

At the April presser....

-directly to the killer, who may be IN THIS ROOM
-we believe you were hiding IN PLAIN SIGHT
-we KNOW this is about power to you
-We are confident that you have told someone what you have done, or at the very least they know because of how different you are since the murders

Ponder these statements, I know I have.

What could possibly drive LE to speak directly to a killer they suspect may be in the very room in which they are holding a public press conference?

If BG, who is now definitively said to be the NBG sketch guy, was hiding in plain sight, how would, how COULD they know this? How would he NOT be singled out at a press conference in which he was supposedly attending? Has he changed his appearance such that LE, reporters, and the general public could not tell?

Just why would it be about POWER to the killer? Some may surmise that is a profiler's suspicion, could it be something different in this case? What kind of power? Power over LE? Ouch!

How could LE be confident that BG is different since the murders? Another profiler's suspicion, or based on observed fact?

ah, I have adopted the MOO

The only thing that I think explains the "you may be in the room" comment is if BG has communicated to LE in some way.

 

[cryssyx3]

just had a quick idea, perhaps it was sorta like a reverse catfish if you will. instead of someone seeing their post on social media and going to the bridge, maybe the cute, popular, athletic older boy posted about some gathering or party at the bridge and the girls wanted to go. "hey let's look at Johnny's Facebook, he's so cute!!.... oh look the seniors are going to the trails..."

jmo

 

[JudgeJudi]

You are correct. LE does have possession of Libby’s phone. (Libby had an iPhone 6/6s.)
LE stated it was found “near the girls”.

Right, but they still could have retrieved it from the creek.

Not saying that isn’t a possibility. There were searchers wading through the creek. MOO

Anything is possible, but I think it's more likely they were looking for the murder weapon in the creek.

Mike Patty told Gray Hughes, "I was getting ready to jump in the creek one day. I had a pair of shorts and tennis shoes. I was gonna go walking and FBI and State Police came up in the area and they said, “No, Mr Patty, we’re gonna be walking that. We’ve got underwater sonar, gyroscopes or something, you know, under water metal detecting capabilities and cameras and stuff”. He said, “We’re gonna walk this whole thing”.

 

[Ozoner]

About being different, the list could be infinite. You add what you think.
- Someone gained or lost a lot of weight.
- Someone very clean and with a keen sense of fashion becomes disheveled, malodorous and uncaring about his looks
- Someone is very pale because he is spending a lot of time at home.
- Someone talkative became silent and withdrawn.
- Someone social, funny and gregarious became very isolated.
- Someone merely looks depressed, or ill.
- A womanizer became a homebody.
- Someone is drinking or into drugs. This would be very common.
- Someone became sober and goes to AA.
- Someone who was a "bad boy" is now into religion and became altruistic.

(My personal guess? This dude is slowly drinking himself into his grave. Maybe this is what he should keep on doing, only not to forget to leave a confession on his death bed. Historically, the most typical way to cope with suddenly awaken conscience. War criminals often discovered religion during trials, so this is not excluded, either).

But if anything, this "someone" was well-known. And I presume, the change is negative, but not necessarily bad (that a narcissistic person who was all about himself is now depressed and drinking - this at least could indicate some pangs of remorse; and it means that he is not in denial of what he has done).

On the other hand, DC's hint is meant for the relatives, partners, or friends. The change is so visible that everyone has noticed it. This tells me that the person used to be in the public eye. That he stands out somehow. Because someone must have told DC, oh, such-and-such? Just look at him.

Kelsi was taken aback by the question. For a second, she hesitated. And then said, no, and about the change. To me, it meant, she definitely did not think the person was SK and she definitely had her own POI.

To add: since I don't exclude two people involved, the one who is the smarter, the mastermind, might have changed way more than the one who was the passive follower.

I don't believe for one second that BG has any pangs of conscience. I also don't think that the change in BG (if he has changed) is negative.
The most likely change is this: he used to show signs of anger and the potential for violence, but now he's the most well-adjusted, most content, most affable, most easy-going young man in town. People are remarking upon how much he's matured and are starting to talk about him as a future community leader; women are encouraging their daughters to try to catch his eye.
The change is a facade, of course, designed to ensure that no one could consider him capable of his heinous, brutal crime. In attempting to project the public image that he wants to cultivate, he will likely have overdone it. A rare few may sense his lack of sincerity, but most will be completely fooled.

 

[sleuther0192837465]

DBM I need my first cup of Joe before I post...
MOO

 

[ScumbagTrav]

A reddit user took pics and videos of the trails and bridge in the beginning of November. Not sure if I can link to reddit to credit the user so I won't for now.

Every time i see close ups of the condition of the bridge, im shocked there isnt more injuries or accidental deaths there. Looks so narrow and so hazardous.

 

[Falling Down]

John Douglas, FBI profiler, quote from the video is his opinion. Maybe I misinterpreted what he said. There is no evidence to suggest the murder of Abigail Williams and Liberty German was not the killer's first murders, only that I think it is rarer.

I think we are all profilers in this case. I look at it from the perspective after over 2 1/2 years that in a small town of 3,000 people, someone would have recognized this offender from either the video or the sketch. He knew the Monon High Bridge somehow but that could be because he works/worked in Delphi, Indiana.

We do not know what LE knows. I think LE was overzealous in wanting to solve this case. But as time passes I think it is going to be harder to believe that this case will be solved with the information LE currently has or that the investigation is on the right path.

Interesting he brings up the teacher angle. I've wondered about this, and why people keep bringing it up.

I've never thought BG is some guy on the fringe with no job and nobody in his life. I've thought this is someone who has a life and career path, maybe even a family, but whose sinister side lies right below the surface.

Most government employees had that day off in the state of Illinois, and I've wondered since very early on if there's a connection with that state in this case.

JMO

 

[MingyMoo]

Interesting he brings up the teacher angle. I've wondered about this, and why people keep bringing it up.

I've never thought BG is some guy on the fringe with no job and nobody in his life. I've thought this is someone who has a life and career path, maybe even a family, but whose sinister side lies right below the surface.

Most government employees had that day off in the state of Illinois, and I've wondered since very early on if there's a connection with that state in this case.

JMO

I have to say only at the begining did I think BG was no job type person and had nobody in his life. As time has passed I have become to think he is well embedded in the local community I don't just mean Delphi I mean surrounding areas. Hes probably into everything.

MingMoo

 

[Ibiz]

I have to say only at the begining did I think BG was no job type person and had nobody in his life. As time has passed I have become to think he is well embedded in the local community I don't just mean Delphi I mean surrounding areas. Hes probably into everything.

MingMoo

Possibly a mailman?

 

[MingyMoo]

Possibly a mailman?

Well must admit I didn't think of that but I suppose anyone any trade or position is likely.

MM