Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

[Charlot123]

She may have run out of cloud storage so she couldn’t back up. I believe she had a cloud account because of the legal stuff reference the family and Apple.

I know you can save everything to computer on Android, and then reset. How this function works on iPhone, not sure yet. Assume, the same way.

 

[Imvp2]

at the time they were reported missing it was also reported that Libby's phone was pinging around the town...they thought they were out running around...they had apparently done it before as some teens do...been there, done that...I don't blame the cops or family of a small town for not recognizing the situation...hind site being 20/20 and all...

Where did you hear they had done this before? What is the source?

 

[Charlot123]

I think not getting concerned is rather typical.

Why have police not found man who teens filmed before their murder?

Anna Williams:

“I went out with a search party and they used flashlights to look in the river that ran under the bridge. I told them: ‘We are not looking for bodies, we are looking for two grounded little girls’.”

I think everyone felt that
the girls were smart, mature, strong, athletic, they were together, and you would think of teenage scenarios, right? They were in own tiny town, they knew it well, they went out in broad daylight, there was no information about a killer roaming around. I think we tend to be more concerned when the person is alone, and disappears. It seems that the searchers were considering hypothermia and hunger, but probably assumed the girls were in someone’s house. MOO.

 

[Major Confusion]

How did Libby lose one shoe?

Maybe she didn't

Kari Swenson was abducted by a father and son off a trail in Montana in 1984 the thing I remember about this case was that she was smart enough to shed some of her personal items (her watch is one I remember) - leaving a bread crumb trail for her rescuers to find her.

It is possible Libby was doing the same

MOO

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Great photos and video. Be sure and watch the screen show so one may read the captions the videographer/photographer posted along the pics.

That's my thread on reddit. Include anything you want here. This was sort of my murder scene trip because I also visited the Sumter County Does sites and two hours after Delphi I was in Indianapolis looking at the Burger Chef from 1978. Earlier tonight I posted the Sumter County Does videos in the related thread here.

From Monon High, these were my principal impressions:

* State Road 25 is an incredible escape route. I travel extensively every year. I wish every area had a road like that. Normally when you have a high speed local road you run into occasional small cities and therefore stop lights with long flashing warning lights ahead of time. There is nothing like than on 25, at least not in the Delphi area. It is mile after mile of 60 mph speed limit cruising, without concern of any delay or stoppage.

* There's nobody on these trails, in Delphi or anywhere else. Give me the under, in terms of number of people who were supposedly there on February 13, 2017. I could post that again and again and it wouldn't be enough. I lived in Las Vegas for 24 years as a sports bettor. I know probability and value. Give me the under. It is pure propaganda to suggest we had a cavalry around ever corner, each with their own story and sighting.

Give me the under

* The drop off point at County Road 300 was amazingly close to the trailhead intersection. I paced off 79 steps. Then a 90 degree turn left and perhaps 5 minutes to the foot of the bridge. Abby and Libby must have relaxed on the trails and taken quite a bit of time if they weren't on the bridge until past 2 PM

* The bridge should be walled off so nobody can cross. Many planks are soft, especially in the early to middle going. I had two major wobbles including nearly falling on my back one time. There is going to be an accident if they don't do something about it. There are new planks all over the place on the Historic Bridge at Canal Park in Delphi. Yet they leave Monon High to rot away. Later the planks are more secure with fewer gaps and also you simply get a feel for things. I was probably twice as fast over the second half as the first. I'm sure that's relatively normal, and the reason Abby and Libby weren't overly concerned about a stranger accelerating in the late going. They anticipated an awkward greeting and nothing else

* I didn't expect to cross but my chief curiosity was the other side of the bridge, since videos I've seen never really explored that area for other options, either for Abby and Libby to escape, or other routes down the hill. I have long doubted that it was straight down to the left at the end of the bridge. Once I took a look at it, I didn't even consider it. Not for one second. I seriously doubt a perpetrator with a plan would settle for something like that, especially since there's such a gentle switch back beyond the red barrier maybe 25-30 yards later, and still within tree cover

* The second stage of down the hill offers more options. Now you are on a gravel access road. That drop is long and steep also. Once you backtrack just right of the bridge then the drop off lessens in length and severity. I skidded down that hill no problem, maybe 15-20 feet. The abundance of leaves really helps cushion things, like you're sliding without concern. But if you go back that far then you are risking someone now above you on the bridge.

* Once fully down the hill it's into tree cover and feels totally concealed walking toward Deer Creek. I felt like any screaming would either not be heard or not draw any type of response. You certainly wouldn't have immediate recognition of what it was and where it was coming from. However, a poster in that thread on reddit tonight said that the home beyond the red rail at left belonged to the Sanders family. The reddit poster said he (she?) has visited the home many times, with the Sanders' permission, and the creek area where the bodies were found is apparently visible from that home. The reddit poster said Bridge Guy took enormous risk in that area. However, the Sanders apparently were not home.

* That reddit poster also said that it was less than a mile from that Sanders home to Abby's house on -- I believe -- County Road 625. That was news to me but this poster was obviously local and knew what they were talking about.

* I could keep going and going. As mentioned in the reddit thread, I was never going to cross the bridge on the way back. Consequently I got lost in the woods and required an hour to return to the Freedom Bridge parking area. However, that hour convinced me that Bridge Guy had countless options to get there and get out of there. There was no reason he had to park near the abandoned building or return there. Walking through the woods to the west, as I did, was not threatening at all. I was surprising deer but otherwise running into nothing and nobody.

 

[JudgeJudi]

No amber alert....because u have to have a car identified in order to do so. They didnt.

That's incorrect.

“Based on the information given by family and friends, police do not believe foul play is involved and have been given no information that would lead them to believe the girls are in any immediate danger, other than exposure to outside elements.

Officers looked into issuing an Amber Alert, but were informed this incident does not meet the criteria.”

Authorities, family continue searching for missing Carroll County teens

Indiana Alert Criteria:

1. The child must be under 18 years of age.

2. The child must be believed to be abducted, AND in danger of serious bodily harm or death.

3. There must be enough descriptive information to believe the broadcast will help.

4. Request must be recommended by the law enforcement agency of jurisdiction.

5. Enter the child into IDACS/NCIC with message key EME.

Amber Alert: Amber Plan

 

[stattlich1]

How did Libby lose one shoe?

My opinion on this:

1. When in panic and attempting to run away from a threat, a shoe could come off, maybe catch on something.

2. More sinister though, is the thought I've had, that she was being dragged, and it caught on something, pulling it off.

The reason I think #2 is plausible is that I think it possible the girls were murdered, or rendered unconscious, sooner in the scenario, rather than later, maybe even prior to crossing the creek.

 

[busymcmoody]

That's my thread on reddit. Include anything you want here. This was sort of my murder scene trip because I also visited the Sumter County Does sites and two hours after Delphi I was in Indianapolis looking at the Burger Chef from 1978. Earlier tonight I posted the Sumter County Does videos in the related thread here.

From Monon High, these were my principal impressions:

* State Road 25 is an incredible escape route. I travel extensively every year. I wish every area had a road like that. Normally when you have a high speed local road you run into occasional small cities and therefore stop lights with long flashing warning lights ahead of time. There is nothing like than on 25, at least not in the Delphi area. It is mile after mile of 60 mph speed limit cruising, without concern of any delay or stoppage.

* There's nobody on these trails, in Delphi or anywhere else. Give me the under, in terms of number of people who were supposedly there on February 13, 2017. I could post that again and again and it wouldn't be enough. I lived in Las Vegas for 24 years as a sports bettor. I know probability and value. Give me the under. It is pure propaganda to suggest we had a cavalry around ever corner, each with their own story and sighting.

Give me the under

* The drop off point at County Road 300 was amazingly close to the trailhead intersection. I paced off 79 steps. Then a 90 degree turn left and perhaps 5 minutes to the foot of the bridge. Abby and Libby must have relaxed on the trails and taken quite a bit of time if they weren't on the bridge until past 2 PM

* The bridge should be walled off so nobody can cross. Many planks are soft, especially in the early to middle going. I had two major wobbles including nearly falling on my back one time. There is going to be an accident if they don't do something about it. There are new planks all over the place on the Historic Bridge at Canal Park in Delphi. Yet they leave Monon High to rot away. Later the planks are more secure with fewer gaps and also you simply get a feel for things. I was probably twice as fast over the second half as the first. I'm sure that's relatively normal, and the reason Abby and Libby weren't overly concerned about a stranger accelerating in the late going. They anticipated an awkward greeting and nothing else

* I didn't expect to cross but my chief curiosity was the other side of the bridge, since videos I've seen never really explored that area for other options, either for Abby and Libby to escape, or other routes down the hill. I have long doubted that it was straight down to the left at the end of the bridge. Once I took a look at it, I didn't even consider it. Not for one second. I seriously doubt a perpetrator with a plan would settle for something like that, especially since there's such a gentle switch back beyond the red barrier maybe 25-30 yards later, and still within tree cover

* The second stage of down the hill offers more options. Now you are on a gravel access road. That drop is long and steep also. Once you backtrack just right of the bridge then the drop off lessens in length and severity. I skidded down that hill no problem, maybe 15-20 feet. The abundance of leaves really helps cushion things, like you're sliding without concern. But if you go back that far then you are risking someone now above you on the bridge.

* Once fully down the hill it's into tree cover and feels totally concealed walking toward Deer Creek. I felt like any screaming would either not be heard or not draw any type of response. You certainly wouldn't have immediate recognition of what it was and where it was coming from. However, a poster in that thread on reddit tonight said that the home beyond the red rail at left belonged to the Sanders family. The reddit poster said he (she?) has visited the home many times, with the Sanders' permission, and the creek area where the bodies were found is apparently visible from that home. The reddit poster said Bridge Guy took enormous risk in that area. However, the Sanders apparently were not home.

* That reddit poster also said that it was less than a mile from that Sanders home to Abby's house on -- I believe -- County Road 625. That was news to me but this poster was obviously local and knew what they were talking about.

* I could keep going and going. As mentioned in the reddit thread, I was never going to cross the bridge on the way back. Consequently I got lost in the woods and required an hour to return to the Freedom Bridge parking area. However, that hour convinced me that Bridge Guy had countless options to get there and get out of there. There was no reason he had to park near the abandoned building or return there. Walking through the woods to the west, as I did, was not threatening at all. I was surprising deer but otherwise running into nothing and nobody.

Great post! And thanks for your impressions and pics. They make things so much more palpable.

I'm sorry I didn't credit you by your name - I wasn't sure whether reddit is an acceptable source.

 

[Cutiekitty]

I know you can save everything to computer on Android, and then reset. How this function works on iPhone, not sure yet. Assume, the same way.

You can backup to iTunes via computer then transfer to personal files. We save everything to the cloud or iTunes. It’s easy. If anyone knows of another way to do it I’d be interested.

 

[tresir2012]

My opinion on this:

1. When in panic and attempting to run away from a threat, a shoe could come off, maybe catch on something.

2. More sinister though, is the thought I've had, that she was being dragged, and it caught on something, pulling it off.

The reason I think #2 is plausible is that I think it possible the girls were murdered, or rendered unconscious, sooner in the scenario, rather than later, maybe even prior to crossing the creek.

I have suggested this but was shouted down because of the weight of the girls. But I agree it is still a possibility. MOO.

 

[tresir2012]

That's my thread on reddit. Include anything you want here. This was sort of my murder scene trip because I also visited the Sumter County Does sites and two hours after Delphi I was in Indianapolis looking at the Burger Chef from 1978. Earlier tonight I posted the Sumter County Does videos in the related thread here.

From Monon High, these were my principal impressions:

* State Road 25 is an incredible escape route. I travel extensively every year. I wish every area had a road like that. Normally when you have a high speed local road you run into occasional small cities and therefore stop lights with long flashing warning lights ahead of time. There is nothing like than on 25, at least not in the Delphi area. It is mile after mile of 60 mph speed limit cruising, without concern of any delay or stoppage.

* There's nobody on these trails, in Delphi or anywhere else. Give me the under, in terms of number of people who were supposedly there on February 13, 2017. I could post that again and again and it wouldn't be enough. I lived in Las Vegas for 24 years as a sports bettor. I know probability and value. Give me the under. It is pure propaganda to suggest we had a cavalry around ever corner, each with their own story and sighting.

Give me the under

* The drop off point at County Road 300 was amazingly close to the trailhead intersection. I paced off 79 steps. Then a 90 degree turn left and perhaps 5 minutes to the foot of the bridge. Abby and Libby must have relaxed on the trails and taken quite a bit of time if they weren't on the bridge until past 2 PM

* The bridge should be walled off so nobody can cross. Many planks are soft, especially in the early to middle going. I had two major wobbles including nearly falling on my back one time. There is going to be an accident if they don't do something about it. There are new planks all over the place on the Historic Bridge at Canal Park in Delphi. Yet they leave Monon High to rot away. Later the planks are more secure with fewer gaps and also you simply get a feel for things. I was probably twice as fast over the second half as the first. I'm sure that's relatively normal, and the reason Abby and Libby weren't overly concerned about a stranger accelerating in the late going. They anticipated an awkward greeting and nothing else

* I didn't expect to cross but my chief curiosity was the other side of the bridge, since videos I've seen never really explored that area for other options, either for Abby and Libby to escape, or other routes down the hill. I have long doubted that it was straight down to the left at the end of the bridge. Once I took a look at it, I didn't even consider it. Not for one second. I seriously doubt a perpetrator with a plan would settle for something like that, especially since there's such a gentle switch back beyond the red barrier maybe 25-30 yards later, and still within tree cover

* The second stage of down the hill offers more options. Now you are on a gravel access road. That drop is long and steep also. Once you backtrack just right of the bridge then the drop off lessens in length and severity. I skidded down that hill no problem, maybe 15-20 feet. The abundance of leaves really helps cushion things, like you're sliding without concern. But if you go back that far then you are risking someone now above you on the bridge.

* Once fully down the hill it's into tree cover and feels totally concealed walking toward Deer Creek. I felt like any screaming would either not be heard or not draw any type of response. You certainly wouldn't have immediate recognition of what it was and where it was coming from. However, a poster in that thread on reddit tonight said that the home beyond the red rail at left belonged to the Sanders family. The reddit poster said he (she?) has visited the home many times, with the Sanders' permission, and the creek area where the bodies were found is apparently visible from that home. The reddit poster said Bridge Guy took enormous risk in that area. However, the Sanders apparently were not home.

* That reddit poster also said that it was less than a mile from that Sanders home to Abby's house on -- I believe -- County Road 625. That was news to me but this poster was obviously local and knew what they were talking about.

* I could keep going and going. As mentioned in the reddit thread, I was never going to cross the bridge on the way back. Consequently I got lost in the woods and required an hour to return to the Freedom Bridge parking area. However, that hour convinced me that Bridge Guy had countless options to get there and get out of there. There was no reason he had to park near the abandoned building or return there. Walking through the woods to the west, as I did, was not threatening at all. I was surprising deer but otherwise running into nothing and nobody.

Thanks so much for your info. I have also seen your photos and videos. Just one question. What does "give me the under" mean?

 

[PezCandy]

Maybe she didn't

Kari Swenson was abducted by a father and son off a trail in Montana in 1984 the thing I remember about this case was that she was smart enough to shed some of her personal items (her watch is one I remember) - leaving a bread crumb trail for her rescuers to find her.

It is possible Libby was doing the same

MOO

Imo, I think that’s what happened in L&A case too, I think Libby was leaving bread crumbs.

 

[Vesta66S]

That's my thread on reddit. Include anything you want here. This was sort of my murder scene trip because I also visited the Sumter County Does sites and two hours after Delphi I was in Indianapolis looking at the Burger Chef from 1978. Earlier tonight I posted the Sumter County Does videos in the related thread here.

From Monon High, these were my principal impressions:

* State Road 25 is an incredible escape route. I travel extensively every year. I wish every area had a road like that. Normally when you have a high speed local road you run into occasional small cities and therefore stop lights with long flashing warning lights ahead of time. There is nothing like than on 25, at least not in the Delphi area. It is mile after mile of 60 mph speed limit cruising, without concern of any delay or stoppage.

* There's nobody on these trails, in Delphi or anywhere else. Give me the under, in terms of number of people who were supposedly there on February 13, 2017. I could post that again and again and it wouldn't be enough. I lived in Las Vegas for 24 years as a sports bettor. I know probability and value. Give me the under. It is pure propaganda to suggest we had a cavalry around ever corner, each with their own story and sighting.

Give me the under

* The drop off point at County Road 300 was amazingly close to the trailhead intersection. I paced off 79 steps. Then a 90 degree turn left and perhaps 5 minutes to the foot of the bridge. Abby and Libby must have relaxed on the trails and taken quite a bit of time if they weren't on the bridge until past 2 PM

* The bridge should be walled off so nobody can cross. Many planks are soft, especially in the early to middle going. I had two major wobbles including nearly falling on my back one time. There is going to be an accident if they don't do something about it. There are new planks all over the place on the Historic Bridge at Canal Park in Delphi. Yet they leave Monon High to rot away. Later the planks are more secure with fewer gaps and also you simply get a feel for things. I was probably twice as fast over the second half as the first. I'm sure that's relatively normal, and the reason Abby and Libby weren't overly concerned about a stranger accelerating in the late going. They anticipated an awkward greeting and nothing else

* I didn't expect to cross but my chief curiosity was the other side of the bridge, since videos I've seen never really explored that area for other options, either for Abby and Libby to escape, or other routes down the hill. I have long doubted that it was straight down to the left at the end of the bridge. Once I took a look at it, I didn't even consider it. Not for one second. I seriously doubt a perpetrator with a plan would settle for something like that, especially since there's such a gentle switch back beyond the red barrier maybe 25-30 yards later, and still within tree cover

* The second stage of down the hill offers more options. Now you are on a gravel access road. That drop is long and steep also. Once you backtrack just right of the bridge then the drop off lessens in length and severity. I skidded down that hill no problem, maybe 15-20 feet. The abundance of leaves really helps cushion things, like you're sliding without concern. But if you go back that far then you are risking someone now above you on the bridge.

* Once fully down the hill it's into tree cover and feels totally concealed walking toward Deer Creek. I felt like any screaming would either not be heard or not draw any type of response. You certainly wouldn't have immediate recognition of what it was and where it was coming from. However, a poster in that thread on reddit tonight said that the home beyond the red rail at left belonged to the Sanders family. The reddit poster said he (she?) has visited the home many times, with the Sanders' permission, and the creek area where the bodies were found is apparently visible from that home. The reddit poster said Bridge Guy took enormous risk in that area. However, the Sanders apparently were not home.

* That reddit poster also said that it was less than a mile from that Sanders home to Abby's house on -- I believe -- County Road 625. That was news to me but this poster was obviously local and knew what they were talking about.

* I could keep going and going. As mentioned in the reddit thread, I was never going to cross the bridge on the way back. Consequently I got lost in the woods and required an hour to return to the Freedom Bridge parking area. However, that hour convinced me that Bridge Guy had countless options to get there and get out of there. There was no reason he had to park near the abandoned building or return there. Walking through the woods to the west, as I did, was not threatening at all. I was surprising deer but otherwise running into nothing and nobody.

Thank you for your excellent post, photos and videos on Reddit. I find your observation concerning the red barrier very interesting.

 

[sunsetbeach]

FBI was in very quickly.. .like within a week if I recall correctly.

The FBI was mentioned the day the girls were found. You’ll find that info in the basement.

 

[Yesiamapirate]

I've been "here" since the girls were reported missing, and I remember being totally shocked that they were found dead....and then to find out they were murdered.....I was barely even concerned when I heard they were missing and assumed they just ran away for the night. I don't find it weird they called off the search that night. I mean, who would have thought they were murdered in those woods!?

So they called off the official search. I guess I can get that. But I have a daughter. If she were missing out there I would have spend the night alone searching. I am sure LE would discourage that but she is my baby. No way. Just my thoughts and thank goodness I have no real life experience with this.

 

[Vesta66S]

The FBI was mentioned the day the girls were found. You’ll find that info in the basement.

Yes. One FBI-person visited family in Delphi and alerted FBI.
If I remember correctly.

 

[TTF14]

So they called off the official search. I guess I can get that. But I have a daughter. If she were missing out there I would have spend the night alone searching. I am sure LE would discourage that but she is my baby. No way. Just my thoughts and thank goodness I have no real life experience with this.

Same!

 

[ScumbagTrav]

That's incorrect.

“Based on the information given by family and friends, police do not believe foul play is involved and have been given no information that would lead them to believe the girls are in any immediate danger, other than exposure to outside elements.

Officers looked into issuing an Amber Alert, but were informed this incident does not meet the criteria.”

Authorities, family continue searching for missing Carroll County teens

Indiana Alert Criteria:

1. The child must be under 18 years of age.

2. The child must be believed to be abducted, AND in danger of serious bodily harm or death.

3. There must be enough descriptive information to believe the broadcast will help.

4. Request must be recommended by the law enforcement agency of jurisdiction.

5. Enter the child into IDACS/NCIC with message key EME.

Amber Alert: Amber Plan

Thank you for the correction!

 

[Charlot123]

Imo, I think that’s what happened in L&A case too, I think Libby was leaving bread crumbs.

This could partially indicate what exactly happened to them, right? The crumbs. Depending on where the shoe was found.

 

[Charlot123]

I have suggested this but was shouted down because of the weight of the girls. But I agree it is still a possibility. MOO.

I think it is possible. More DNA left on the bodies if they were dragged.