Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

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So they called off the official search. I guess I can get that. But I have a daughter. If she were missing out there I would have spend the night alone searching. I am sure LE would discourage that but she is my baby. No way. Just my thoughts and thank goodness I have no real life experience with this.

Yes, I agree, I too would be out there. In this case, who knows WHO all was out there, and doing what? Covering tracks, hiding bodies, destroying evidence, contaminating the crime scene, etc. etc.
 
My opinion on this:

1. When in panic and attempting to run away from a threat, a shoe could come off, maybe catch on something.

2. More sinister though, is the thought I've had, that she was being dragged, and it caught on something, pulling it off.

The reason I think #2 is plausible is that I think it possible the girls were murdered, or rendered unconscious, sooner in the scenario, rather than later, maybe even prior to crossing the creek.
If drag marks were present along with the set of footprints that led searchers to a shoe, than I would assume that would have been mentioned. Who knows, though. But I also see no reason for the killer to carry the girls across the creek. If he killed them on the south side, why not just hide them there?

My guess is the shoe was found along the bank or in a shallow, visible spot in the creek. The mud itself could have sucked the shoe off, but the fact that she didn't stop to retrieve it is the most telling. Either she was fleeing, or wasn't allowed to. JMO.

I also think the footsteps and/or shoe location was heading into the creek because for the searchers, the next logical thing to do is look across the bank with zoom on a camera or binoculars to see where they got out (or the shoe was already on the opposite side and they used the zoom to look around).

The mention of the girls being placed side by side could hint that they were moved, or staged, but I, personally, think the killer would only have moved them enough to hide the bodies from view. Or he could have made them stand together. Or they were somehow tied together. Or he killed one there and moved the other. Lots of possibilities.
 
That's my thread on reddit. Include anything you want here. This was sort of my murder scene trip because I also visited the Sumter County Does sites and two hours after Delphi I was in Indianapolis looking at the Burger Chef from 1978. Earlier tonight I posted the Sumter County Does videos in the related thread here.

From Monon High, these were my principal impressions:

* State Road 25 is an incredible escape route. I travel extensively every year. I wish every area had a road like that. Normally when you have a high speed local road you run into occasional small cities and therefore stop lights with long flashing warning lights ahead of time. There is nothing like than on 25, at least not in the Delphi area. It is mile after mile of 60 mph speed limit cruising, without concern of any delay or stoppage.

* There's nobody on these trails, in Delphi or anywhere else. Give me the under, in terms of number of people who were supposedly there on February 13, 2017. I could post that again and again and it wouldn't be enough. I lived in Las Vegas for 24 years as a sports bettor. I know probability and value. Give me the under. It is pure propaganda to suggest we had a cavalry around ever corner, each with their own story and sighting.

Give me the under

* The drop off point at County Road 300 was amazingly close to the trailhead intersection. I paced off 79 steps. Then a 90 degree turn left and perhaps 5 minutes to the foot of the bridge. Abby and Libby must have relaxed on the trails and taken quite a bit of time if they weren't on the bridge until past 2 PM

* The bridge should be walled off so nobody can cross. Many planks are soft, especially in the early to middle going. I had two major wobbles including nearly falling on my back one time. There is going to be an accident if they don't do something about it. There are new planks all over the place on the Historic Bridge at Canal Park in Delphi. Yet they leave Monon High to rot away. Later the planks are more secure with fewer gaps and also you simply get a feel for things. I was probably twice as fast over the second half as the first. I'm sure that's relatively normal, and the reason Abby and Libby weren't overly concerned about a stranger accelerating in the late going. They anticipated an awkward greeting and nothing else

* I didn't expect to cross but my chief curiosity was the other side of the bridge, since videos I've seen never really explored that area for other options, either for Abby and Libby to escape, or other routes down the hill. I have long doubted that it was straight down to the left at the end of the bridge. Once I took a look at it, I didn't even consider it. Not for one second. I seriously doubt a perpetrator with a plan would settle for something like that, especially since there's such a gentle switch back beyond the red barrier maybe 25-30 yards later, and still within tree cover

* The second stage of down the hill offers more options. Now you are on a gravel access road. That drop is long and steep also. Once you backtrack just right of the bridge then the drop off lessens in length and severity. I skidded down that hill no problem, maybe 15-20 feet. The abundance of leaves really helps cushion things, like you're sliding without concern. But if you go back that far then you are risking someone now above you on the bridge.

* Once fully down the hill it's into tree cover and feels totally concealed walking toward Deer Creek. I felt like any screaming would either not be heard or not draw any type of response. You certainly wouldn't have immediate recognition of what it was and where it was coming from. However, a poster in that thread on reddit tonight said that the home beyond the red rail at left belonged to the Sanders family. The reddit poster said he (she?) has visited the home many times, with the Sanders' permission, and the creek area where the bodies were found is apparently visible from that home. The reddit poster said Bridge Guy took enormous risk in that area. However, the Sanders apparently were not home.

* That reddit poster also said that it was less than a mile from that Sanders home to Abby's house on -- I believe -- County Road 625. That was news to me but this poster was obviously local and knew what they were talking about.

* I could keep going and going. As mentioned in the reddit thread, I was never going to cross the bridge on the way back. Consequently I got lost in the woods and required an hour to return to the Freedom Bridge parking area. However, that hour convinced me that Bridge Guy had countless options to get there and get out of there. There was no reason he had to park near the abandoned building or return there. Walking through the woods to the west, as I did, was not threatening at all. I was surprising deer but otherwise running into nothing and nobody.
BG path from Freedom Bridge start of trail to Monon High Bridge
-.-

ends at the red barrier ...... and flowers at the South end of MHB ......
 
PHOTO: Police Seek to ID Man in Abigail Williams & Liberty German Case | Heavy.com

This is an item from very early on that shows that LE were looking for info about vehicles right from the beginning.

“We are asking for anyone to come forward with information or were in the area of the Delphi Historic Trails or Monon High Bridge that might have seen a person or persons, vehicles parked in the area or were taking pictures. Any information may be helpful to solving this case,” police said in a press release. “You can contact the Carroll County Sheriff’s Department or the Delphi Police Department at 765-564-2413, option #1, or the Indiana State Police at 765-567-2125.”
They added, “Also, if you were parked at High Bridge Trail Head on February 13, 2017 between 1:00 p.m. and 5:00 p.m. we would like to talk to you.”

This was in many of the articles early on. Also, volunteers manned the telephones in the early days so something could have been missed or not taken down properly IMO.
Thanks for posting this! So the 1-5pm time frame has sort of been there from the beginning. I do think it's a range they feel encompasses the entire crime from before to after. It's possible, IMO, that the car and the NBG sketch have always been a matching set, so no mention of the vehicle was made early on for the same reason the NBG sketch wasn't released - whatever reason that was.
 
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The FBI was mentioned the day the girls were found. You’ll find that info in the basement.

Mike Patty also told Gray Hughes about it, and it was the day they were found:

"I was getting ready to jump in the creek one day. I had a pair of shorts and tennis shoes. I was gonna go walking and FBI and State Police came up in the area and they said, “No, Mr Patty, we’re gonna be walking that. We’ve got underwater sonar, gyroscopes or something, you know, under water metal detecting capabilities and cameras and stuff”. He said, “We’re gonna walk this whole thing”.
 
That's my thread on reddit. Include anything you want here. This was sort of my murder scene trip because I also visited the Sumter County Does sites and two hours after Delphi I was in Indianapolis looking at the Burger Chef from 1978. Earlier tonight I posted the Sumter County Does videos in the related thread here.

From Monon High, these were my principal impressions:

* State Road 25 is an incredible escape route. I travel extensively every year. I wish every area had a road like that. Normally when you have a high speed local road you run into occasional small cities and therefore stop lights with long flashing warning lights ahead of time. There is nothing like than on 25, at least not in the Delphi area. It is mile after mile of 60 mph speed limit cruising, without concern of any delay or stoppage.

* There's nobody on these trails, in Delphi or anywhere else. Give me the under, in terms of number of people who were supposedly there on February 13, 2017. I could post that again and again and it wouldn't be enough. I lived in Las Vegas for 24 years as a sports bettor. I know probability and value. Give me the under. It is pure propaganda to suggest we had a cavalry around ever corner, each with their own story and sighting.

Give me the under

* The drop off point at County Road 300 was amazingly close to the trailhead intersection. I paced off 79 steps. Then a 90 degree turn left and perhaps 5 minutes to the foot of the bridge. Abby and Libby must have relaxed on the trails and taken quite a bit of time if they weren't on the bridge until past 2 PM

* The bridge should be walled off so nobody can cross. Many planks are soft, especially in the early to middle going. I had two major wobbles including nearly falling on my back one time. There is going to be an accident if they don't do something about it. There are new planks all over the place on the Historic Bridge at Canal Park in Delphi. Yet they leave Monon High to rot away. Later the planks are more secure with fewer gaps and also you simply get a feel for things. I was probably twice as fast over the second half as the first. I'm sure that's relatively normal, and the reason Abby and Libby weren't overly concerned about a stranger accelerating in the late going. They anticipated an awkward greeting and nothing else

* I didn't expect to cross but my chief curiosity was the other side of the bridge, since videos I've seen never really explored that area for other options, either for Abby and Libby to escape, or other routes down the hill. I have long doubted that it was straight down to the left at the end of the bridge. Once I took a look at it, I didn't even consider it. Not for one second. I seriously doubt a perpetrator with a plan would settle for something like that, especially since there's such a gentle switch back beyond the red barrier maybe 25-30 yards later, and still within tree cover

* The second stage of down the hill offers more options. Now you are on a gravel access road. That drop is long and steep also. Once you backtrack just right of the bridge then the drop off lessens in length and severity. I skidded down that hill no problem, maybe 15-20 feet. The abundance of leaves really helps cushion things, like you're sliding without concern. But if you go back that far then you are risking someone now above you on the bridge.

* Once fully down the hill it's into tree cover and feels totally concealed walking toward Deer Creek. I felt like any screaming would either not be heard or not draw any type of response. You certainly wouldn't have immediate recognition of what it was and where it was coming from. However, a poster in that thread on reddit tonight said that the home beyond the red rail at left belonged to the Sanders family. The reddit poster said he (she?) has visited the home many times, with the Sanders' permission, and the creek area where the bodies were found is apparently visible from that home. The reddit poster said Bridge Guy took enormous risk in that area. However, the Sanders apparently were not home.

* That reddit poster also said that it was less than a mile from that Sanders home to Abby's house on -- I believe -- County Road 625. That was news to me but this poster was obviously local and knew what they were talking about.

* I could keep going and going. As mentioned in the reddit thread, I was never going to cross the bridge on the way back. Consequently I got lost in the woods and required an hour to return to the Freedom Bridge parking area. However, that hour convinced me that Bridge Guy had countless options to get there and get out of there. There was no reason he had to park near the abandoned building or return there. Walking through the woods to the west, as I did, was not threatening at all. I was surprising deer but otherwise running into nothing and nobody.
Interesting in that you state you got lost after going in the possible direction of the killer. In spite of the area not being that large. That would seem to indicate this killer seemed to be very familiar with the area. Unless, he has spent a lot of time in forests and is very comfortable in that environment.
 
The interview with Tobe posted earlier where he comments about the search. He states it was called off but then states that volunteers, firefighters, LE stayed and continued searching. So what exactly was the point of calling it off in the first place if the majority stayed anyway? Crazy.
 
I don't want to start any rumors as I am just brainstorming here. What if the shoe thing was more sinister. As in BG went into a rage bc Libby was trying to get away. He caught her, and let's just say there was something in that shoe (shudder......a foot). It would keep her from running away any more. *shudder* I hate that I even thought of this.
 
Kyle Keener, reporter with Pharos-Tribune, said this:
So one would consider that the shoe came off in that struggle. MOO

Were the girls found clothed or unclothed? I ask because Kyle Keener, reporter with Pharos-Tribune, said he saw girls clothing in Deer Creek "...From 75-yards away I could see girls clothing in Deer Creek east of the bridge and knew full well that the girls where found very nearby..."
 
Were the girls found clothed or unclothed? I ask because Kyle Keener, reporter with Pharos-Tribune, said he saw girls clothing in Deer Creek "...From 75-yards away I could see girls clothing in Deer Creek east of the bridge and knew full well that the girls where found very nearby..."
It has not been officially said if the girls were found dressed or not. I assume since he saw girls clothing in the creek, one or the other or both were not fully dressed.
 
That's my thread on reddit. Include anything you want here. This was sort of my murder scene trip because I also visited the Sumter County Does sites and two hours after Delphi I was in Indianapolis looking at the Burger Chef from 1978. Earlier tonight I posted the Sumter County Does videos in the related thread here.

From Monon High, these were my principal impressions:

* State Road 25 is an incredible escape route. I travel extensively every year. I wish every area had a road like that. Normally when you have a high speed local road you run into occasional small cities and therefore stop lights with long flashing warning lights ahead of time. There is nothing like than on 25, at least not in the Delphi area. It is mile after mile of 60 mph speed limit cruising, without concern of any delay or stoppage.

* There's nobody on these trails, in Delphi or anywhere else. Give me the under, in terms of number of people who were supposedly there on February 13, 2017. I could post that again and again and it wouldn't be enough. I lived in Las Vegas for 24 years as a sports bettor. I know probability and value. Give me the under. It is pure propaganda to suggest we had a cavalry around ever corner, each with their own story and sighting.

Give me the under

* The drop off point at County Road 300 was amazingly close to the trailhead intersection. I paced off 79 steps. Then a 90 degree turn left and perhaps 5 minutes to the foot of the bridge. Abby and Libby must have relaxed on the trails and taken quite a bit of time if they weren't on the bridge until past 2 PM

* The bridge should be walled off so nobody can cross. Many planks are soft, especially in the early to middle going. I had two major wobbles including nearly falling on my back one time. There is going to be an accident if they don't do something about it. There are new planks all over the place on the Historic Bridge at Canal Park in Delphi. Yet they leave Monon High to rot away. Later the planks are more secure with fewer gaps and also you simply get a feel for things. I was probably twice as fast over the second half as the first. I'm sure that's relatively normal, and the reason Abby and Libby weren't overly concerned about a stranger accelerating in the late going. They anticipated an awkward greeting and nothing else

* I didn't expect to cross but my chief curiosity was the other side of the bridge, since videos I've seen never really explored that area for other options, either for Abby and Libby to escape, or other routes down the hill. I have long doubted that it was straight down to the left at the end of the bridge. Once I took a look at it, I didn't even consider it. Not for one second. I seriously doubt a perpetrator with a plan would settle for something like that, especially since there's such a gentle switch back beyond the red barrier maybe 25-30 yards later, and still within tree cover

* The second stage of down the hill offers more options. Now you are on a gravel access road. That drop is long and steep also. Once you backtrack just right of the bridge then the drop off lessens in length and severity. I skidded down that hill no problem, maybe 15-20 feet. The abundance of leaves really helps cushion things, like you're sliding without concern. But if you go back that far then you are risking someone now above you on the bridge.

* Once fully down the hill it's into tree cover and feels totally concealed walking toward Deer Creek. I felt like any screaming would either not be heard or not draw any type of response. You certainly wouldn't have immediate recognition of what it was and where it was coming from. However, a poster in that thread on reddit tonight said that the home beyond the red rail at left belonged to the Sanders family. The reddit poster said he (she?) has visited the home many times, with the Sanders' permission, and the creek area where the bodies were found is apparently visible from that home. The reddit poster said Bridge Guy took enormous risk in that area. However, the Sanders apparently were not home.

* That reddit poster also said that it was less than a mile from that Sanders home to Abby's house on -- I believe -- County Road 625. That was news to me but this poster was obviously local and knew what they were talking about.

* I could keep going and going. As mentioned in the reddit thread, I was never going to cross the bridge on the way back. Consequently I got lost in the woods and required an hour to return to the Freedom Bridge parking area. However, that hour convinced me that Bridge Guy had countless options to get there and get out of there. There was no reason he had to park near the abandoned building or return there. Walking through the woods to the west, as I did, was not threatening at all. I was surprising deer but otherwise running into nothing and nobody.
Great post, thanks!

"Abby and Libby weren't overly concerned about a stranger accelerating in the late going. They anticipated an awkward greeting and nothing else."

Abby's mom did state in the Renner interview, about being allowed to listen to some of the audio before BG got to the girls. She said Abby voiced something to which Libby responded with a comment saying, but the trail ends up there we can't go that way...her mom goes on to say how the girls certainly weren't going to start crossing back over that bridge until BG finished crossing because there was no room to be on there together. It certainly sounded like Anna felt Abby wanted to physically go away from the approaching BG and then you have Libby starting the recording him after this.

I think it sounds lije they were uneasy with BG coming their way, nobody else was around. I think for whatever reasons, he made them nervous.
 
If drag marks were present along with the set of footprints that led searchers to a shoe, than I would assume that would have been mentioned. Who knows, though. But I also see no reason for the killer to carry the girls across the creek. If he killed them on the south side, why not just hide them there?

My guess is the shoe was found along the bank or in a shallow, visible spot in the creek. The mud itself could have sucked the shoe off, but the fact that she didn't stop to retrieve it is the most telling. Either she was fleeing, or wasn't allowed to. JMO.

I also think the footsteps and/or shoe location was heading into the creek because for the searchers, the next logical thing to do is look across the bank with zoom on a camera or binoculars to see where they got out (or the shoe was already on the opposite side and they used the zoom to look around).

The mention of the girls being placed side by side could hint that they were moved, or staged, but I, personally, think the killer would only have moved them enough to hide the bodies from view. Or he could have made them stand together. Or they were somehow tied together. Or he killed one there and moved the other. Lots of possibilities.

I've doubted BG did much 'work' during this crime, as in no more work than he had to do. He was in the area for a length of time walking around, doing whatever he did before the abduction, exerting himself in low-40'sF temps.

Far as a shoe is concerned, I've thought that a shoe may have gotten sucked off of a foot in the muck along Deer Creek where they made it to the north side of the stream. In MSM images from the day of the discovery of the bodies, it's easy to see some deep footprints, as in stuck in the mud prints, where the girls and BG most likely would have walked up the steep, short bank.

JMO
 
Thanks for posting this! So the 1-5pm time frame has sort of been there from the beginning. I do think it's a range they feel encompasses the entire crime from before to after. It's possible, IMO, that the car and the NBG sketch have always been a matching set, so no mention of the vehicle was made early on for the same reason the NBG sketch wasn't released - whatever reason that was.

I'm starting to wonder if there are some connections we can glean from the April 22nd presser.

JMO
 
Were the girls found clothed or unclothed? I ask because Kyle Keener, reporter with Pharos-Tribune, said he saw girls clothing in Deer Creek "...From 75-yards away I could see girls clothing in Deer Creek east of the bridge and knew full well that the girls where found very nearby..."

I don't put any stock in that statement, I've seen his SM post with the image taken from the bridge and there's nothing to it, in my mind. I haven't seen anything else about "clothing in the creek". The other thing is from where he was standing on the bridge he was about 3/8 of a mile from the CS, as the crow flies. Which he would not have known, and the CS can't be seen from the bridge, anyway.

Sensational, in my opinion. That and I don't know how someone could discern whether an article of clothing from a distance is for a male or female from 75 yards away, unless they could zoom in and focus on it somehow.

.375 miles = 1980 feet. Just for reference, let's say A&L were left 1800 feet from where he was standing, as the crow flies. Now throw in the sharp bends in Deer Creek, and the clothing being 75 yards (in his words) from him/the bridge, or 225 feet. I have my doubts about the clothing, or what he thought was clothing, or whatever, being related to the crime.

JMO
 
Great post! And thanks for your impressions and pics. They make things so much more palpable.

I'm sorry I didn't credit you by your name - I wasn't sure whether reddit is an acceptable source.

No problem. I actually entered the thread last night to post the link to my photos, then I noticed they were already linked. Thank you.
 
I don't put any stock in that statement, I've seen his SM post with the image taken from the bridge and there's nothing to it, in my mind. I haven't seen anything else about "clothing in the creek". The other thing is from where he was standing on the bridge he was about 3/8 of a mile from the CS, as the crow flies. Which he would not have known, and the CS can't be seen from the bridge, anyway.

Sensational, in my opinion. That and I don't know how someone could discern whether an article of clothing from a distance is for a male or female from 75 yards away, unless they could zoom in and focus on it somehow.

.375 miles = 1980 feet. Just for reference, let's say A&L were left 1800 feet from where he was standing, as the crow flies. Now throw in the sharp bends in Deer Creek, and the clothing being 75 yards (in his words) from him/the bridge, or 225 feet. I have my doubts about the clothing, or what he thought was clothing, or whatever, being related to the crime.

JMO

I agree with your post.
But do keep in mind that tie dye shirts do stand out especially in that season when most grass and trees are still dormant. JMO
didn’t the person who found zoom in on his camera cuz he heard/seen deer during the search and that’s how he ended up finding them? A brightly colored shirt would stand out more than earth tones.
 
I agree with your post.
But do keep in mind that tie dye shirts do stand out especially in that season when most grass and trees are still dormant. JMO
didn’t the person who found zoom in on his camera cuz he heard/seen deer during the search and that’s how he ended up finding them? A brightly colored shirt would stand out more than earth tones.

The post I quoted referred to the reporter who was on the bridge on the 14th, from memory it was not a tie dyed shirt. IIRC, the reporter saw the item in the water before the girls were found. I'll try to find the image.

JMO
 
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