Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

[taximama24]

Thanks @Awsi Dooger for breathing some new life into the case and giving us new details and trains of thought to ponder. So much of what you said makes such great sense, but I'm still having trouble reconciling that BG didn't have to be local. Honestly I would never have crossed that bridge, so up until now I assumed he had to be local for that reason alone. But then you crossed it, so I thought okay maybe not. But the more I sit and think critically about what you've given us, I think I still come back around to him having to have more familiarity than you did with the area to even attempt to kill two girls in broad daylight and think he's getting out without a trace.

You said your trip seemed to solidify for you that he's not local because its such a dream escape route to be long gone right away. But what are the odds that someone not local pulls off the road they think has plenty of escape potential with the intent to kill and just so happens to come across a pair of girls to carry out this desire in this dream location, especially given how unlikely he was to come across anyone at all? The route through the cemetery I would think has some risk as well, you never know who might be visiting a loved one's grave (especially with it being a day before Valentine's day and a day off for some). And without knowing the the girls would cross the bridge he would not have known his ending point, and without retracing his steps, like you he would have been left to meander a bit unchartered, not knowing he could keep clear of residences with a view, like Sanders, who just happened to not be home...did he really just "luck out" on all those counts?

 

[Vesta66S]

I’m curious as to why LE are so confident the killer is a local.. could it be possible there is audio recorded that the killer said something (maybe knew the girls names?) that confirms that?

Good point. Also LE did not warn the community of danger. It could be personal?!

 

[No it's not]

In my book the very fact that the killer murdered Abby and Libby in Carol County, Indiana, in Delphi around the MHB, will give away his ID or has already given away his ID by now. This is strictly my opinion based on different scenarios I came up with regarding why the killer "chose" this location and why he parked a vehicle at the DHS building - or why he parked his vehicle somewhere else - or why he did not have a vehicle but walked there or was dropped off.

If this seems confusing, try to make a list with all possible scenarios and backgrounds about the killer. He is local/not local, he knows the victims/does not know the victims, he has a vehicle and parked at the DHS building, he has a vehicle and possibly parked at the cemetery (or somewhere else), he does not have a vehicle/ has a bike/ was dropped off.

You will be surprised how little almost all of the scenarios make sense - in my opinion. There always seems to be some kind of contradiction. Try it. Consider the murderer (first time offender vs. experienced killer) and his plan or no plan at all. Then consider the location and the victims.

After making my list I looked at it and one of the few options, that made sense was...the murderer did not necessarily plan to
kill this day- or any day. He may have had a legit reason he was on the trails (work related/ resident etc/ pleasure). He runs into the girls and something happened either right then or shortly after. By that I mean, did he force them off the MHB, because they were not supposed to be on it (private property, MHB was not part of the trails, private property around the bridge as well)? Did one of the girls get very seriously injured during this process and BG panics?

I know we have discussed all possible scenarios including this one. But in all the scenarios, that I recall, we did not include the possibility, that BG did not plan anything nefarious at that point! Who was the "couple under the bridge"? BG and one of the girls?? Is it possible, that BG out of panic kills the girl(s) and staged a serial killers' murder across the creek possibly with someone's help?

Whatever happened, make your list, if you are up to it, and let's see where it leads to. It just looks different on the paper.

ALL IMO

-Nin

 

[Kudzuu]

I think this has been mentioned before so please indulge me.

What if BG arrived from the cemetery (or somewhere through the woods beyond the end of the trail), hiked across the bridge passing the girls along the way then turns and watches them knowing he has them trapped once they are on the bridge. Maybe Abby catches his eye because she has her hair up and is dressed up (compared to many pictures I've seen of her). He watches them until the moment is right to follow them and entrap them at the end of the bridge. He would have met no one but the girls and been seen by no one but the girls. He waits to make sure no one else is coming down the trail to see him take the girls. Waits until he knows he has time to traverse the bridge unseen by anyone coming down the trail. Maybe the girls paid him no mind until he reappeared on the bridge and they got nervous because he followed them and had nowhere to escape until he was off the bridge. All they could do was hope he was harmless, which he wasn't. He took them "down the hill" back toward his escape route. Perfect. No witnesses and he killed them along his way back from whence he came.

Perhaps this made him feel more secure taking two girls because he was certain there was no one around. Whatever he had in his pocket makes me believe he came there hunting, knew the end of the trail was the perfect place to isolate his prey and kill.

In this scenario, he had to be exceptionally familiar with the area. Maybe even someone who hunted on the private lands for deer, or squirrels. Game hunters know the remote areas to hunt. People here can hunt on as little as 25 acres or maybe less. I've hunted on 25 acres so I know that is legal.

This is all my opinion.

 

[155etta]

In my book the very fact that the killer murdered Abby and Libby in Carol County, Indiana, in Delphi around the MHB, will give away his ID or has already given away his ID by now. This is strictly my opinion based on different scenarios I came up with regarding why the killer "chose" this location and why he parked a vehicle at the DHS building - or why he parked his vehicle somewhere else - or why he did not have a vehicle but walked there or was dropped off.

If this seems confusing, try to make a list with all possible scenarios and backgrounds about the killer. He is local/not local, he knows the victims/does not know the victims, he has a vehicle and parked at the DHS building, he has a vehicle and possibly parked at the cemetery (or somewhere else), he does not have a vehicle/ has a bike/ was dropped off.

You will be surprised how little almost all of the scenarios make sense - in my opinion. There always seems to be some kind of contradiction. Try it. Consider the murderer (first time offender vs. experienced killer) and his plan or no plan at all. Then consider the location and the victims.

After making my list I looked at it and one of the few options, that made sense was...the murderer did not necessarily plan to
kill this day- or any day. He may have had a legit reason he was on the trails (work related/ resident etc/ pleasure). He runs into the girls and something happened either right then or shortly after. By that I mean, did he force them off the MHB, because they were not supposed to be on it (private property, MHB was not part of the trails, private property around the bridge as well)? Did one of the girls get very seriously injured during this process and BG panics?

I know we have discussed all possible scenarios including this one. But in all the scenarios, that I recall, we did not include the possibility, that BG did not plan anything nefarious at that point! Who was the "couple under the bridge"? BG and one of the girls?? Is it possible, that BG out of panic kills the girl(s) and staged a serial killers' murder across the creek possibly with someone's help?

Whatever happened, make your list, if you are up to it, and let's see where it leads to. It just looks different on the paper.

ALL IMO

-Nin

I've seen photos of a group who were installing benches/signage there the day before. I believe one of them may even have been FSG. I've wondered if BG saw the girls doing something to one of them (vandalizing) that angered him. He confronts them and it turns bad? He could even have had tools on him if he was still working on benches or signs that day. MOO

 

[JnRyan]

I had a similar scenario except he entered in a different area and left the area through the woods adjacent to the cemetery. The killer entering and leaving seen only by the two girls is a scary one, which means LE does not have a witness. Why we have confusion on the two sketches? If asked if I saw someone in an area like that and what they were wearing, I don't know if I would remember 3-4 days later. In your scenario, NEITHER of the sketches resemble the killer.

 

[Charlot123]

I've seen photos of a group who were installing benches/signage there the day before. I believe one of them may even have been FSG. I've wondered if BG saw the girls doing something to one of them (vandalizing) that angered him. He confronts them and it turns bad? He could even have had tools on him if he was still working on benches or signs that day. MOO

If the victims were two boys, I’d say, possible. How common is for two teenage girls to vandalize the benches?

 

[Kudzuu]

I had a similar scenario except he entered in a different area and left the area through the woods adjacent to the cemetery. The killer entering and leaving seen only by the two girls is a scary one, which means LE does not have a witness. Why we have confusion on the two sketches? If asked if I saw someone in an area like that and what they were wearing, I don't know if I would remember 3-4 days later. In your scenario, NEITHER of the sketches resemble the killer.

Good point. If no one saw him then the sketches are based on witnesses who thought they saw him. If they saw his picture which is so blurry they would have to recognize the clothing and their description would not match the real BG's face. It is scary if there were no witnesses. That leaves it up to forensics. People are nosy and once the girls were found who knows how many people traipsed over to the crime scene. Inexperienced LE with a homicide like this too. And we do not know what evidence they have.

So we could be looking for a man that doesn't look like either sketch.

 

[almagata]

After making my list I looked at it and one of the few options, that made sense was...the murderer did not necessarily plan to kill this day- or any day. He may have had a legit reason he was on the trails (work related/ resident etc/ pleasure).

I think Nin is totally correct.

 

[tresir2012]

Good point. If no one saw him then the sketches are based on witnesses who thought they saw him. If they saw his picture which is so blurry they would have to recognize the clothing and their description would not match the real BG's face. It is scary if there were no witnesses. That leaves it up to forensics. People are nosy and once the girls were found who knows how many people traipsed over to the crime scene. Inexperienced LE with a homicide like this too. And we do not know what evidence they have.

So we could be looking for a man that doesn't look like either sketch.

The only thing I am thinking about this is that the witnesses will have seen the shot of BG from Libby's phone so what have they said when LE interviewed them? "Yeah, that's him" or "No, nothing like him". There has to be a reasonable response from them. I think YBG was drawn before the photo came out I believe.

 

[Falling Down]

Yes, these 2017 videos are considerably more interesting now that I've been there and know what I'm looking at. I strongly recommend freeze framing this video at 11:19 and again at 11:30. It is the same helicopter search video of February 14th, merely with the freeze sections removed. The video opens up larger if the title atop is clicked toward direct YouTube view. That also removes some graphic interference below:

That viewpoint is from the back of the bridge. At 11:19 you can see the bridge at left. The bodies location is basically perpendicular from the end of the bridge. So toward the bottom left of the screen at 11:19 but perhaps 15% inward and upward.

You can see what Bridge Guy is dealing with there. He is already on the east (right) side of Deer Creek. He is within the forest and can ascend toward the cemetery, not too far away. That is the manicured area at lower right on the screen. County Road 300 is right there, which he can take in either direction. If he goes left it is toward the drop off point and eventually reaches State Road 25 near top of the screen for an easy 60 mph getaway either east or west.

I would say parking near the cemetery is the single most logical plan for him. I'm not sure we have a report of a vehicle in that area. But again, given how low the population is and how few people are in a given spot at a given time, I'm not sure a lack of sighting means much of anything.

Preferred theory is that he parked near State Road 25 and the abandoned building. But from 11:19 freeze frame you can see that is way up yonder, and basically just off the screen to the top right. Barely this side of the highway and around the corner.

That's quite the hike, whether he remains with the forest partially or traipses in the open alongside County Road 300.

Lots of video in that section is good, including close ups of the cemetery.

Now fast forward to 11:30 freeze frame. The bodies are across the creek at right, almost exactly center screen (left to right) and maybe 40% upwards from bottom of screen. That open field at lower left center alongside the creek is the private home immediately beyond the bridge, the Sanders residence. I took photos from behind the bridge demonstrating that Abby and Libby could have bolted into the open lawn. I estimated 150 yards to the house itself. I think that looks close to accurate. This view provides best evidence that the home is tucked alongside the edge of the property just above the creek. That's why the Reddit poster who has visited the Sanders home several times insists that Bridge Guy took enormous risks, since the bodies location was visible from the back of the home.

Note the activity at lower left, all the cars. That is likely another private home, with search party members and/or law enforcement vehicles parked and already prioritizing the end of the bridge area.

That view at 11:30 demonstrates that Bridge Guy had many options, but east toward the cemetery was most likely, followed IMO by west and through the corridor under the bridge. He can remain in tree cover for quite a while if he loops west and back under the bridge. If he goes south (toward camera) he's got plenty of residences to deal with, and north is back toward the trail intersection itself.

My hunch since early on has been that BG parked at the cemetery before the murders. This might still square with the interest in a vehicle at the CPS building. I'm of the opinion both might be of interest in this case.

BG could have parked at the CPS building, wandered around a while on the trails observing people, then when he passed A&L he could have moved a vehicle from the CPS building to the cemetery. Or he did it prior to the girls getting there. I've thought since early on they crossed paths on the main trail, then BG saw them cross the bridge, and that's when he put the wheels in motion to carry out his fantasy.

My timeline puts BG at the SE end of the bridge at roughly 2:20, A&L got there roughly 40 minutes earlier. BG would have had 20 or maybe even 30 minutes to prepare for the attack, he could have moved a vehicle, put a disguise on, etc.

One other point about the cemetery, at the very back someone could be standing up straight, and would not be seen from C.R. 300. I stopped back there, and there are YouTube videos showing the view back towards C.R. 300. Someone driving by on 300 would not notice a vehicle parked back there, the cemetery is not very wide, but is around 700 feet deep. The slope towards the back of the cemetery offers a fair amount of concealment.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

I think this has been mentioned before so please indulge me.

What if BG arrived from the cemetery (or somewhere through the woods beyond the end of the trail), hiked across the bridge passing the girls along the way then turns and watches them knowing he has them trapped once they are on the bridge. Maybe Abby catches his eye because she has her hair up and is dressed up (compared to many pictures I've seen of her). He watches them until the moment is right to follow them and entrap them at the end of the bridge. He would have met no one but the girls and been seen by no one but the girls. He waits to make sure no one else is coming down the trail to see him take the girls. Waits until he knows he has time to traverse the bridge unseen by anyone coming down the trail. Maybe the girls paid him no mind until he reappeared on the bridge and they got nervous because he followed them and had nowhere to escape until he was off the bridge. All they could do was hope he was harmless, which he wasn't. He took them "down the hill" back toward his escape route. Perfect. No witnesses and he killed them along his way back from whence he came.

Perhaps this made him feel more secure taking two girls because he was certain there was no one around. Whatever he had in his pocket makes me believe he came there hunting, knew the end of the trail was the perfect place to isolate his prey and kill.

In this scenario, he had to be exceptionally familiar with the area. Maybe even someone who hunted on the private lands for deer, or squirrels. Game hunters know the remote areas to hunt. People here can hunt on as little as 25 acres or maybe less. I've hunted on 25 acres so I know that is legal.

This is all my opinion.

He had to have been there before, i agree.

On those private properties on the north side of the creek are trails suitable for horseback riding and humans walking, and people do hunt there.

I'm of the opinion BG had been there before, maybe many times. Yet he may not be from the immediate area.

JMO

 

[Confusion]

It does seem to me that there was quite a bit of luck involved, no matter how things played out. One of the theories that keeps coming back to me is that he knew RL, at least well enough to know who he was and where he lived. He may have also known enough about the other residents in the area to know who would be around at that time of year, who works during that time of day, etc. Where a lot of the luck comes in: he is aware of RL asking someone to take him to the fish store (or wherever it was he went that day), and also saw the girls being dropped off while he was on his way to RL's farm (possibly to burglarize it?) Knowing that nobody would be at the farm for a couple hours and not seeing other cars parked around the park entrance, he pulled into the building (granary/silo?) across from RL's house and cut through the cemetery, and over to the bridge, or he went through the woods to get to the path so nobody would see where he had come from.

I also believe he was fairly confident that the girls wouldn't recognize him, or at or least didn't know his name or where he lived. I'm not totally convinced that he went there originally planning to murder anyone, but I also don't believe he lost a lot of sleep over it once it was done. He may have thought he could assault the girls, get back to his car undetected and leave without a problem. This is really a stretch but, if he saw the girls being dropped off, stopped or slowed down for a better look, and heard KG say something like, "and make sure you're ready when Dad gets here, it should be right around 3:00." The girls may have seen him stop and check them out, and that was why they were suspicious of him when they saw him on the bridge. It's possible that one of them said something like, "It's the guy in the blue Ford!", or "You're the guy we saw in that Red pick up!", and he panicked because he realized that they might be able to help identify him.

He may have decided to take them to his vehicle and bring them somewhere more private, but when they got near the cemetery, the girls tried to get away, and one (or both) may have fallen down near the area they were found. Since he would have known that their ride would be there soon, he may have just murdered them there rather than trying to get them back up that hill and to his vehicle before anyone came. My biggest problem with this one is that it doesn't explain why he'd say "down the hill" unless it wasn't at the beginning of the audio. If one of them fell, it's possible that he told the other one (most likely LG since it was recorded) to go down the hill to get them back together.

I know there are a lot of holes, but there have been in every scenario I've come up with. I don't have any links because I've never heard that he parked in that building, that a vehicle had stopped while they were getting out, that the audio we were given wasn't at the beginning of the recording, or that there was anything said about his vehicle. All just bits and pieces from my jumbled mind.

 

[Falling Down]

It does seem to me that there was quite a bit of luck involved, no matter how things played out. One of the theories that keeps coming back to me is that he knew RL, at least well enough to know who he was and where he lived. He may have also known enough about the other residents in the area to know who would be around at that time of year, who works during that time of day, etc. Where a lot of the luck comes in: he is aware of RL asking someone to take him to the fish store (or wherever it was he went that day), and also saw the girls being dropped off while he was on his way to RL's farm (possibly to burglarize it?) Knowing that nobody would be at the farm for a couple hours and not seeing other cars parked around the park entrance, he pulled into the building (granary/silo?) across from RL's house and cut through the cemetery, and over to the bridge, or he went through the woods to get to the path so nobody would see where he had come from.

I also believe he was fairly confident that the girls wouldn't recognize him, or at or least didn't know his name or where he lived. I'm not totally convinced that he went there originally planning to murder anyone, but I also don't believe he lost a lot of sleep over it once it was done. He may have thought he could assault the girls, get back to his car undetected and leave without a problem. This is really a stretch but, if he saw the girls being dropped off, stopped or slowed down for a better look, and heard KG say something like, and make sure you're ready when Dad gets here, it should be right around 3:00." The girls may have seen him stop and check them out, and that was why they were suspicious of him when they saw him on the bridge. It's possible that one of them said something like, "It's the guy in the blue Ford!", or "You're the guy we saw in that Red pick up!", and he panicked because he realized that they might be able to help identify him.

He may have decided to take them to his vehicle and bring them somewhere more private, but when they got near the cemetery, the girls tried to get away, and one (or both) may have fallen down near the area they were found. Since he would have known that there ride would be there soon, he may have just murdered them there rather than trying to get them back up that hill and to his vehicle before anyone came. My biggest problem with this one is that it doesn't explain my he'd say "down the hill" unless it wasn't at the beginning of the audio. If one of them fell, it's possible that he told the other one (most likely LG since it was recorded) to go down the hill to get them back together.

I know there are a lot of holes, but there have been in every scenario I've come up with. I don't have any links because I've never heard that he parked in that building, that a vehicle had stopped while they were getting out, that the audio we were given wasn't at the beginning of the recording,or that there was anything said about his vehicle. All just bits and pieces from my jumbled mind.

I've wondered if BG knew about who was home or not at home at a few of the properties along the creek.

 

[Cutiekitty]

Just relistened to the infamous Indy podcast (infamousindy.com - iPad is acting up and can’t copy links for some reason), which was in January 2019 I believe. There were a few things that have been brought up before that I found interesting in light of some recent discussions.

KG acknowledged affirmatively when asked if they lived on the trails and grew up on them. KG also mentions the house at the south end of the bridge and the private drive and says you are not supposed to go down it, but people do it anyway.

LE called off the search on the 13th and thought the girls might’ve runaway. People continued to search and the family went home around 10pm to get some sleep. They went back out at 7:30am The next day.

KG says there were groups of kids at the trails throughout the day. When KG got to the trails to search around 4ish On the 13th there were 4-5 girls/boys at the trails.

When she and CP were searching they called LGs phone thinking they’d hear it ring. She said they would’ve heard it ring because it was so quiet out there. They were on the S end of the bridge when they did this. They were checking the trail under the bridge from the bridge.

 

[sunsetbeach]

I don't put any stock in that statement, I've seen his SM post with the image taken from the bridge and there's nothing to it, in my mind. I haven't seen anything else about "clothing in the creek". The other thing is from where he was standing on the bridge he was about 3/8 of a mile from the CS, as the crow flies. Which he would not have known, and the CS can't be seen from the bridge, anyway.

Sensational, in my opinion. That and I don't know how someone could discern whether an article of clothing from a distance is for a male or female from 75 yards away, unless they could zoom in and focus on it somehow.

.375 miles = 1980 feet. Just for reference, let's say A&L were left 1800 feet from where he was standing, as the crow flies. Now throw in the sharp bends in Deer Creek, and the clothing being 75 yards (in his words) from him/the bridge, or 225 feet. I have my doubts about the clothing, or what he thought was clothing, or whatever, being related to the crime.

JMO

I doubt an award winning photographer would lie about this subject imo.
I also doubt he would post THE photo of the clothing on his social media.

Do we know exactly where he was at? Was he searching/walking in the woods along the creek on the east side of the bridge? Was he on the bridge when he saw the clothing? I don’t think we know those answers.

Which direction does the water flow in Deer Creek? From videos on YT I think It flows from where the girls were found around the curve and under the bridge.

MOO

 

[HockeyMom330]

Based on what everyone is saying about The Shack being played in the Delphi area or in church groups, or maybe someone close to BG they know was a particular fan of the movie, I think its probably more likely that they are pulling at the faith filled heartstrings of those close to BG to reaffirm their faith and turn BG in so he can repent this mortal sin and be absolved. The timing of the PC being the day after Easter, the holiday for Christians that is centered upon Christ's passion, death, and resurrection so that we may be forgiven for our sins seems more in line with this purpose too. And I'm of the mindset they believe BG or his family have those faith filled heartstrings to pull, or that they are just banking on it because of its prevalence in the area, and he is imploring them to let themselves be guided by their faith into doing what's right.

Snipped for brevity and BBM

I've always felt that the timing of the April PC was very intentional and significant. If it does in fact relate to Easter, what are the chances that there will be another significant PC around Christmas time? Besides religious significance, it is also a time when many college students come home for the holidays.

 

[Boxer]

Deer Ceek flows west toward Delphi and then flows into thw Wabash.

 

[Cutiekitty]

Snipped for brevity and BBM

I've always felt that the timing of the April PC was very intentional and significant. If it does in fact relate to Easter, what are the chances that there will be another significant PC around Christmas time? Besides religious significance, it is also a time when many college students come home for the holidays.

I feel the same.

 

[sunsetbeach]

I've seen photos of a group who were installing benches/signage there the day before. I believe one of them may even have been FSG. I've wondered if BG saw the girls doing something to one of them (vandalizing) that angered him. He confronts them and it turns bad? He could even have had tools on him if he was still working on benches or signs that day. MOO

That photo wasn’t taken at the Monon High Bridge. It was taken in an area of Deer Creek at a totally different location. There’s a series of photos not just that one. I won’t elaborate further as I’m not sure it’s allowed. FSG has never been identified by LE even though we all know who he is.