CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - *Arrest* #66

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BBM. Respectfully, I don't believe you are accurate. I do believe there was cross examination by the defense. By reporters' tweets and news reports, we know that there was a meeting with the judge behind closed doors. To me, that is a strong indication the defense objected to the testimony before it began. I also know that Agent Slater admitted he isn't a handwriting expert. If he's not a handwriting expert, he didn't "authenticate" the letters. The inmate witness admitted he considered selling the letters on ebay. Through defense cross-examination, he admitted he wanted a plea deal and a lighter sentence.

I think the defense will be reminding the jury of the relevant facts about the lack of forensic evidence during closing arguments. After all, the jury was present at the trial and taking notes. It would not surprise me if at least some of them have the same concerns as posters have expressed here.

JMO

Gregg Slater, investigator for Colorado Bureau of Investigations testifies that he recognizes Frazee's handwriting based on other pieces of evidence collected. Although he adnits he's not a handwriting expert.

Former inmate testifies in Patrick Frazee trial
The defense may have objected to the testimony before it began, but once they were in the court room in front of the jury they did very little to challenge the letters.

I can't think of any other reason why other than the fact that they know PF wrote them.

Imo
 
The defense doesn't have to prove anything including who wrote the letters. The entire burden is on the prosecution. I'm looking forward to closing arguments.

JMO
I'm looking forward to that, too. The defense hasn't contributed much so far, because they can't dispute what has been presented by the prosecution. You're right, the defense doesn't have to prove anything, but the prosecution has done a heck of a job with the phone records alone, not to mention having KK tell her story, the blood evidence and finally, PF's letters. He has plead guilty, which is not an admission of guilt, but his lawyers don't seem to have much to combat the accusations against him. I mean, when the letters were presented, it was a stunning turn of events for everyone, the main players as well as us. The defense does need to have some answer when credible allegations have been made, they can't just stick their fingers in their ears and say, "We don't have to prove anything." They have a job to do. As for the letters, why didn't they demand a forensic investigation? That is certainly within their rights, so there must be some reason they didn't go down that path. What do you think that was?
 
he may have actually been very relaxed and having a great time - these guys enjoy this stuff, they use anger to pretend they are out of control. but they can stop on a dime if need be - say if a cop were to walk by.


Learning about the bat dents in the floor helps us realize the extent of Patrick's rage.

To have struck at Kelsey on that floor and missed? Think about it....he missed her twice and hit the floor instead.

Was she crawling away?

He was completely out of control.
 
You're right about the tooth found in the fire pit and thought to be Kelsey's. I was referring to the teeth found in an envelope inside the house. Some WS members believe that those teeth are evidence of other murders that PF has committed. They could be right or it could have a simple explanation.

Five Teeth, Potentially Bloody Sheet Found In Search Of Patrick Frazee’s Home, Court Records Show

Five teeth, potentially bloody sheet found in search of Patrick Frazee’s home, court records show – The Denver Post

They also found "four teeth in a small envelope" and a fifth tooth held separately.

Ah, yes, those teeth. Thanks, I forgot about those... hopefully some answers on those will eventually be released.
 
You're right about the tooth found in the fire pit and thought to be Kelsey's. I was referring to the teeth found in an envelope inside the house. Some WS members believe that those teeth are evidence of other murders that PF has committed. They could be right or it could have a simple explanation.

Five Teeth, Potentially Bloody Sheet Found In Search Of Patrick Frazee’s Home, Court Records Show

Five teeth, potentially bloody sheet found in search of Patrick Frazee’s home, court records show – The Denver Post

They also found "four teeth in a small envelope" and a fifth tooth held separately.

I need to have my eyes checked. When I read the bolded, I thought you wrote "and a fifth tooth sold separately." :eek:
 
Learning about the bat dents in the floor helps us realize the extent of Patrick's rage.

To have struck at Kelsey on that floor and missed? Think about it....he missed her twice and hit the floor instead.

Was she crawling away?

He was completely out of control.
Yes I believe she was crawling away and his rage was so intense he missed her and hit the floor - the forensics are going to seal this IMO
 
If I were in PF's shoes and I really was innocent and I thought I was being railroaded by corrupt LE and/or incompetent counsel and potentially facing LWOP, I would have taken the stand and gotten my 'innocent' explanation for the evidence on record.

After all, if he is innocent and genuinely doesn't know what happened to KB, he's the best person to explain why he was in and out of her condo multiple times on Thanksgiving Day. He can explain the evidence that he had KB's phone in his possession for days. He could explain his lies about his actions (those on camera) and his whereabouts on Thanksgiving Day and the day after.

Or he could hold his tongue and risk LWOP because the defense doesn't have an obligation to 'prove' anything, forgetting that one way to defend one's self is to provide irrefutable facts and evidence demonstrating one's innocence.
Yes absolutely that is what a truly innocent person would do IMO
 
We don't know if PF provided the addresses. He gave the guy his mother's phone number. He could have called her for that information if he had any intention of carrying it out.

Imo

What amazes me is how he got them out of the jail. You would think there would have been a process of paperwork going out of the prison and would have been checked.

Then again, Jodi Arias tried to get notes out with her magazine and Juan just happened to be there to catch that the notes were on different pages.
 
Bail is documented, as the person who puts it up is on the hook for it if the defendant fails to appear.

It would take a second to figure out who posted bail (for people with the appropriate credentials).

That’s really not the issue though. The issue is who arranged for it to occur, which could be found by either talking to the person who posted it, or listening to a recording of PF’s phone call (if it was arranged that way).
Bail has to be paid IN CASH, according to this legal website. I doubt SF showed up at the Teller County jail and paid the bond. I do believe all inmate calls are monitored and inmates know it.

JMO
Teller County Jail & Detention Center Info: Visiting, Bail, Location, Safety
 
The Tooth Fairy. When I was a youngster it was common for children who shed a baby tooth to put the tooth under their pillow at night. In the morning the child looks under the pillow and the tooth is gone and there is money in it's place. Mom says, "The Tooth Fairy visited you last night and left you the money."

I don't know if parents still do this, but there is a Wiki article on the subject. These mysterious teeth may (or may not) be anything more than the Frazee sibling's baby teeth. Maybe SF saved the teeth the way some mothers save a lock of hair or baby shoes.

Tooth fairy - Wikipedia
The Tooth Fairy is still going strong. Some fairies are paying as much as $20/tooth nowadays and sometimes the tooth is even presented to her on a special pillow. ;)
 
Yes absolutely that is what a truly innocent person would do IMO
A truly innocent person is going to take the advice of their attorney. I think if there is a mistrial declared, whatever is said by the defendant can be used against him at the retrial.

JMO
 
BBM. Respectfully, I don't believe you are accurate. I do believe there was cross examination by the defense. By reporters' tweets and news reports, we know that there was a meeting with the judge behind closed doors. To me, that is a strong indication the defense objected to the testimony before it began. I also know that Agent Slater admitted he isn't a handwriting expert. If he's not a handwriting expert, he didn't "authenticate" the letters. The inmate witness admitted he considered selling the letters on ebay. Through defense cross-examination, he admitted he wanted a plea deal and a lighter sentence.

I think the defense will be reminding the jury of the relevant facts about the lack of forensic evidence during closing arguments. After all, the jury was present at the trial and taking notes. It would not surprise me if at least some of them have the same concerns as posters have expressed here.

JMO

Gregg Slater, investigator for Colorado Bureau of Investigations testifies that he recognizes Frazee's handwriting based on other pieces of evidence collected. Although he adnits he's not a handwriting expert.

Former inmate testifies in Patrick Frazee trial

I don’t think you’re quite understanding.

First, they “objected” via mid-trial motions. A motion in limine to exclude the evidence outright so the jury would never know if it.

That failed.

Their next step would be to challenge authentication. They did not do so. If there was a real question as to whether PF was the author it would be gross error to fail to object on the record during testimony.

As I stated, those are two different things. They did one and not the other.

Second:

“Prosecutor Beth Reed then called up Gregg Slater, the CBI agent, who went through 17 of the letters that Frazee and the inmate allegedly passed back and forth while in the Teller County Jail. Slater said he reviewed these letters. He said all the letters appeared to match Frazee’s handwriting. He read them out loud in the newsroom

In their passed notes, Frazee asked the man to kill witnesses — Kenney, Michelle Stein (Kenney’s friend in Idaho), John Moore (Frazee's friend who previously testified), Wendi Clark (Moore’s significant other) and lead Colorado Bureau of Investigation Agent Gregg Slater — and described where they live now and what they look like. In a testimony, Slater confirmed the descriptions of each person and their places of residences were all accurate.

The defense did not cross-examine Slater.

The prosecution then said they would rest their case. The defense — after confirming that Frazee would not testify — also rested without bringing up any witnesses.
Frazee trial: Letters say Frazee asked inmate to kill witnesses

Slater is who authenticated the letters as in PF’s handwriting. They did not challenge his knowledge in any way. They were admitted thus they were authenticated.

You can’t bring up anything in close that didn’t come out in testimony. So the defense can’t say Slater lacked the expertise to make that analysis because they didn’t challenge him on his expertise.

The forensic evidence in this case was voluminous and damning. Blood evidence, burn evidence, dental evidence, phone records.

I recall you didn’t think so at all in the CW case either. You defended him strenuously. I’m not sure if you remember that in that case my opinion was the evidence was massive. No room for reasonable doubt.

We all know how that one turned out.

My legal opinion is the same with this one
 
BBM. Respectfully, I don't believe you are accurate. I do believe there was cross examination by the defense. By reporters' tweets and news reports, we know that there was a meeting with the judge behind closed doors. To me, that is a strong indication the defense objected to the testimony before it began. I also know that Agent Slater admitted he isn't a handwriting expert. If he's not a handwriting expert, he didn't "authenticate" the letters. The inmate witness admitted he considered selling the letters on ebay. Through defense cross-examination, he admitted he wanted a plea deal and a lighter sentence.

I think the defense will be reminding the jury of the relevant facts about the lack of forensic evidence during closing arguments. After all, the jury was present at the trial and taking notes. It would not surprise me if at least some of them have the same concerns as posters have expressed here.

JMO

Gregg Slater, investigator for Colorado Bureau of Investigations testifies that he recognizes Frazee's handwriting based on other pieces of evidence collected. Although he adnits he's not a handwriting expert.

Former inmate testifies in Patrick Frazee trial

BBM

I'm guessing that you understand the entire point of the behind-closed-doors meeting was for the defense to try to keep out the Paper Towel Tales witness?

The media clearly reported that.

Whatever happened in the meeting, we know the defense was not able to convince the judge Patrick didn't write the letters.

The judge explained to the jury how they should view this evidence in their deliberations. (Read about 404B.)

As to the defense closing with denial of the forensic evidence, that's what they do (even when little voices in their heads probably say, "Did I actually say that out loud?!").

As the attorneys here have told us repeatedly, that dog won't hunt.
 
No, but there is evidence that PF provided her phone number and told him what to say.

I don't believe the jail house snitch ever had any intention of doing what PF requested.

Imo
I don't believe PF requested the guy do anything at all.

JMO
 
Bail has to be paid IN CASH, according to this legal website. I doubt SF showed up at the Teller County jail and paid the bond. I do believe all inmate calls are monitored and inmates know it.

JMO
Teller County Jail & Detention Center Info: Visiting, Bail, Location, Safety
Cash, or it’s equivalent. Cash doesn’t necessarily mean “paper money.”

It is always documented, as that money is either reimbursed, or seized (failure to appear).

You are dead wrong on this.
 
BBM

I'm guessing that you understand the entire point of the behind-closed-doors meeting was for the defense to try to keep out the Paper Towel Tales witness?

The media clearly reported that.

Whatever happened in the meeting, we know the defense was not able to convince the judge Patrick didn't write the letters.

The judge explained to the jury how they should view this evidence in their deliberations. (Read about 404B.)

As to the defense closing with denial of the forensic evidence, that's what they do (even when little voices in their heads probably say, "Did I actually say that out loud?!").

As the attorneys here have told us repeatedly, that dog won't hunt.

BBM. Yes we do know that the defense was not able to convince the judge. iow, the defense OBJECTED to it. My response was to a poster who claimed the defense didn't object to the 'paper' towel witness.

JMO
 
Isn't bail usually paid in cash? Unless SF showed up in person, how could LE prove who is the source of the cash?

JMO
Many times no cash changes hands.
Often people put up valuable items such as their homes for collateral.
F. Dulos put up his 401K for starters on his bond.

We don't know who gave John Doe's girlfriend the means to get him out.

We do know that he stayed in jail for 17 days before his bail was worked out so he wasn't rolling in money.....

17 days in which he discussed his financial situation with Patrick Frazee.
He got Ma F's contact info and then,
well, golly, gee, the bond was posted!
 
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