Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

[Charlot123]

(SBM)

Or... could be someone bent on getting revenge...

But... at the cost of someone's life? Worse yet, at the cost of two individuals' lives?

Let's add to the mix of the following: Someone...

• familiar with the area
• familiar specifically with the MHB (no small feat)
• okay with the outdoors (yes, it was unseasonably warm, but not 50s-60s temps)
• *possibly* bent on getting revenge
• skilled at "acting" (able to change character to quickly appear as a mild-mannered hiker on a nice afternoon, even after committing an unthinkable act)
• given to explosive anger
• sufficiently knowledgeable of DNA samples that he could contaminate them (this point seems -- JMOO -- to significantly narrow the list of potential suspects)

n.b. -- None of these points includes references to SM, though SM may have been a factor, and through various means of accessing SM, etc.
--
Thus, someone with absolutely no knowledge of the area, who just "happened" upon the MHB, the adjacent trails, who came from I-65 (major interstate nearby), and who is from, say, the Western US, or, say, New England, etc., is probably not going to be at the top of the suspect list -- unless, of course, that individual grew up in Delphi/regularly visited there when he was much younger, etc. All just MOO random thoughts.

About DNA. First, to my surprise, I found that a science teacher taught criminology classes at Delphi High. So I would say, all students at school who were interested could have had that knowledge.

Second, there are tons of online Q/A about getting rid of the DNA. The LE knows what the perp did. I don’t. But it is not difficult to find the answer he followed and find out who visited that site. I think. I assume nothing is secret online.

 

[BNA]

And, listening to the first sentences from DC in that presser, he gave me the creeps.

Something is very weird about what this guy is saying this early in the investigation. I do not like it any more.

"We're NOT stopping." Why would he even need to say this at this point? Something is not right.

Also, "just...getting...started...." Well, the investigation is only a week old at that point, iirc. WTF. Already portraying it as a poor picture.

This little speech was absolutely loony.

 

[Ellie1]

I know there has been a lot of discussion around familial DNA testing and people submitting and opting in for that, because there have been no hits in CODIS so far.

There is also a backlog of close to 5000 untested rape kits in Indiana alone (http://www.endthebacklog.org/indiana), never mind surrounding states and the rest of the country. I know we don't know whether SA was part of this crime, but it's safe to say that there's a solid possibility BG has committed some kind of SA at some point. What if his DNA is sitting in an untested rape kit somewhere, all the answers just in a box gathering dust? I feel there should really be a big push to start testing rape kits that are sitting on a shelf. So many times, untested rape kits are tested and solve other crimes when they hit on DNA that previously had no match.

 

[Tiger Stripes]

Same here. Go down the block and over the levee. We'd be in woods along the river in no time.

Same here! Went to the backyard, past a clump of tall oaks and hickory trees, past a clearing, then... there was the river and a thick woods -- so lovely to explore! No paths -- just natural brush/undergrowth. Every afternoon after school -- my sweet spot! Time to enjoy trees, leaves, skies, birds and bird songs, and watching little critters scurrying around with no fear of anyone there... Every now and then trout leaping up for a fly...

 

[Kudzuu]

Snipped/BBM


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There is no evidence that the girls' appearance at the bridge could have been predicted by BG or anyone else. It's clear that the girls didn't know BG, and Abby's mother was adamant that she wouldn't gone to meet a boy without getting dolled up. That and the fact that no digital trail has been found rules out the idea that they were catfished.
-.

snipped by me.

I stated earlier that Abby looked "dolled up" compared to other pictures. Her hair was up, she wore a close fitting top. My opinion. She looked older dressing this way not in a tee shirt and pony tail..it could mean nothing...Also her mother said she'd never consent to her being on the bridge so there is that as well. MOO

 

[Cutiekitty]

BBM

The comments that you mentioned were made early in the investigation, before LE knew very much. LE probably made those comments because they didn't want the public to panic. Since then, LE has learned that the girls' trip to the trail at that particular time was impromptu, checked out anyone and everyone closely connected to the girls, and checked out the girls' online activities without finding any leads. I don't think that LE still believes that a chance encounter was unlikely (if they ever really did).

They did say they were on to something early on though. You start out looking close to home then branch out, which they did. Maybe they realized their first track was the right track.

 

[Tiger Stripes]

its still a reasonable guess at this point is this is tied in some way to drug activity and that is why LE can't get a straight story and no one is willing to give anyone up as being there or knowing who did what to the girls.

(SBM for focus)

@taximama24, I know that in late May of this year/early June there were some WS-ers who were discussing the possibilities of this crime's being drug-related. Yours is a good (though not often discussed) theory!

As one who grew up in the Midwest (and who is currently Midwest-based), I would say that, while there are "pockets" of illicit drug activity in the Midwest, I truly do not believe that the Midwest is more a "drug haven" than any other part of the country. (This, in defense of those not familiar as looong-time residents of the Midwest -- specifically, those who perhaps have never had the opportunity to live/work in one of the small-town places for which the Midwest is famous -- and for which the Midwest is sometimes -- a LOT! -- humorously poked at! )

There are still many excellent small towns in the Midwest to live, work, raise a family, to retire, and especially to grow up as a young person -- all while exploring the woods, trails, fishing spots, and natural resources -- without any encounters with criminals! More likely encounters with 'possums, squirrels, and a few skunks (4-legged ones )! (And no -- I don't work for any local Midwest chambers of commerce! LOL)

 

[Deleted member 102539]

And, listening to the first sentences from DC in that presser, he gave me the creeps.

Something is very weird about what this guy is saying this early in the investigation. I do not like it any more.

Unfortunately I can't view videos for more than a few minutes (laptop gets overheating). So I can't follow like I would want to do.

 

[ScumbagTrav]

Unfortunately I can't view videos for more than a few minutes (laptop gets overheating). So I can't follow like I would want to do.

That sucks. Because transcripts dont do it justice imo. Gray Hughes, on his shows, has actually edited out DCs long awkward pauses to make him sound more competent when he speaks.

 

[IceIce9]

(SBM for focus)

@taximama24, I know that in late May of this year/early June there were some WS-ers who were discussing the possibilities of this crime's being drug-related. Yours is a good (though not often discussed) theory!

As one who grew up in the Midwest (and who is currently Midwest-based), I would say that, while there are "pockets" of illicit drug activity in the Midwest, I truly do not believe that the Midwest is more a "drug haven" than any other part of the country. (This, in defense of those not familiar as looong-time residents of the Midwest -- specifically, those who perhaps have never had the opportunity to live/work in one of the small-town places for which the Midwest is famous -- and for which the Midwest is sometimes -- a LOT! -- humorously poked at! )

There are still many excellent small towns in the Midwest to live, work, raise a family, to retire, and especially to grow up as a young person -- all while exploring the woods, trails, fishing spots, and natural resources -- without any encounters with criminals! More likely encounters with 'possums, squirrels, and a few skunks (4-legged ones )! (And no -- I don't work for any local Midwest chambers of commerce! LOL)

Rural Indiana is well known for being a hotbed of meth activity.
Meth.IN.gov: Statistics

 

[distracted]

This is only time I can recall LE discussing or addressing a chance encounter. I have not heard it come up again that I remember. How likely is it that LE changed their mind? Hard to tell from what LE has released. Besides even though LE has gone through their social media, computers and phones, LE really does not know who the girls told in a face to face situation. Or who might have been nearby - e.g., a store, school, gas station - and overheard the conversation. Someone in an interview (Kelsi, Liberty's grandparents? don't remember) stated that the girls had been talking about going to the trail on the day off for a few days.

It was Liberty's grandmother who said that the girls had been asking to go for a few days. She also said that she had asked Abby to get permission from her mom but she didn't, as it turns out.

Kelsi may have addressed it, too, at some point since she was the one who offered to take them that day because her grandmother was working.

 

[distracted]

This. Every bit this. I'm familiar with the "VSCO" girl trend, I'm familiar with the "IG worthy photo shoots" for this age group...but if this was their intent, where are the pics?? The one pic of the bridge and the one pic of Abby that got sent out on snapchat, those don't jiive with this trend. I've always been skeptical that this was their purpose because they have Libby's phone, there would have been more pics. There would have been pics of Libby. I'm just not sold on the primary reason for going there that day being to take pictures, even though it was absolutely a normal teen thing to do.

It doesn't appear it was hunting season? And I'm not sure how satisfying fishing would be in that creek that time of year. Happy to be corrected on both of those hobbies, as I am unfamiliar with them. But it was unseasonably warm, just after more typical snowfall months but safely before more typical hiking months. It seems to me it would be a sweet spot in timing for the (oft speculated) meth cooking in the area, most people if seeing smoke (does that even generate smoke, I actually have no idea) would still assume winter firepits/fireplaces, and they probably didn't know or forgot about the school off day. I think BG could have never intended to kill but carried the gun as I assume people in that nefarious business likely always do. I think the girls then just may have seen a little too much and BG killed them out of fear of maybe going to jail, going back to jail, etc. Or we know there are folks connected to the girls mingled with that lifestyle so perhaps it wasn't something they wanted those connections finding out about, etc. I think its still a reasonable guess at this point is this is tied in some way to drug activity and that is why LE can't get a straight story and no one is willing to give anyone up as being there or knowing who did what to the girls.

After watching that early PC, I tend to agree with you. It would explain why they told the public they didn't think anyone else was in danger.

If LE thought initially that it was drug related - and may still think this is the case - it would also explain why they didn't think it was random or may involve more than one person. LE may have had reason to think it involved a drug operation that crossed state or county lines. And along this thinking, it would explain the ongoing presence of the FBI as well as the billboards that went up outside of Delphi.

And then something happened that turned the case upside down and necessitated the April 2019 PC.

 

[sunshineray]

Regarding the temperature, people should consider that the air temperature is not the only thing that affects how warm or cold people feel. If it was a sunny day in the low 40s, the radiant heat from the sun would have made people feel quite warm--possibly warm enough to doff their hats and jackets; if it was a cloudy, windy day in the low 40s, people would have felt considerably colder.
I mention those things because if it was cloudy and windy, then it wouldn't have been unusual for BG to be wearing both a jacket and hoodie. If it was sunny out and there was little wind, then BG's attire would suggest that he was trying to conceal his identity or his rape/murder kit.
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As far as revenge goes, I've considered that the girls could have been surrogates of some sort. Maybe BG wanted revenge against the Delphi community, against females in general, or against adolescent females in particular.
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I wish we knew whether the murders showed signs of rage. A rage killing of such young victims would point to a fairly young offender, probably someone in his late teens or early 20s, possibly a recent (2015 or 2016) graduate of the local high school. A cold, methodical killing might suggest an older, seasoned killer.

In your last paragraph, I could see the reverse also being true. Young killers have been known to methodically and calmly plan a killing, while older killers have been know to be out of control angry, savage in their killing. I think it could go either way.

 

[sunshineray]

"We're NOT stopping." Why would he even need to say this at this point? Something is not right.

Also, "just...getting...started...." Well, the investigation is only a week old at that point, iirc. WTF. Already portraying it as a poor picture.

This little speech was absolutely loony.

I think because things were done by the killer, at the scene, to destroy DNA evidence and probably some staging was also done.

 

[PaulaDC]

I know there has been a lot of discussion around familial DNA testing and people submitting and opting in for that, because there have been no hits in CODIS so far.

There is also a backlog of close to 5000 untested rape kits in Indiana alone (http://www.endthebacklog.org/indiana), never mind surrounding states and the rest of the country. I know we don't know whether SA was part of this crime, but it's safe to say that there's a solid possibility BG has committed some kind of SA at some point. What if his DNA is sitting in an untested rape kit somewhere, all the answers just in a box gathering dust? I feel there should really be a big push to start testing rape kits that are sitting on a shelf. So many times, untested rape kits are tested and solve other crimes when they hit on DNA that previously had no match.

Those untested rape kits tell me that women have no value to society and rape is ok. Women need to unite on this issue. moo

 

[stattlich1]

"We're NOT stopping." Why would he even need to say this at this point? Something is not right.

Also, "just...getting...started...." Well, the investigation is only a week old at that point, iirc. WTF. Already portraying it as a poor picture.

This little speech was absolutely loony.

Crazy thing is, they said darn near the same things at the April, 2019 presser....."We are just beginning. We are just now beginning, and I can tell you on behalf of The Sheriff and The Police Chief, and so many other partners that have stood with us over this period of time, that we will NOT stop!"

At that April presser, it is also stated that the voice recording is ONE persons voice, and IS the voice of the person ON THE BRIDGE....."the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls. This is NOT two different people speaking"

Now THAT is interesting, because.....somehow they KNOW it to be true. So the question for me is, HOW? How do they know without doubt that the person's voice on that cell phone is the person on the bridge?

 

[Falling Down]

Those untested rape kits tell me that women have no value to society and rape is ok. Women need to unite on this issue. moo

In my mind's eye, real men to stand up for this behind women, too.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

It was Liberty's grandmother who said that the girls had been asking to go for a few days. She also said that she had asked Abby to get permission from her mom but she didn't, as it turns out.

Kelsi may have addressed it, too, at some point since she was the one who offered to take them that day because her grandmother was working.

At that age I wish I'd had the freedom those girls had. I can see being a young teen pestering someone to take me to a cool place like that on an unseasonably mild day during Winter here in Indiana, I would have done the same in Upstate, NY, where I'm from.

Kelsi just happens to be the person who took them to the drop off point near the bridge, and DG was supposed to pick them up. Such an innocent thing to do, two kids on an unseasonably mild February Monday off from school.

Then they came across BG.

 

[neesaki]

And, listening to the first sentences from DC in that presser, he gave me the creeps.

Something is very weird about what this guy is saying this early in the investigation. I do not like it any more.

I could be confused, or missed something here.So, I’ll just ask for clarification, are you referencing the latest presser, the one from the one year or so anniversary? Or a way early one from the tine of the murders.
Thats what I’m confused about, because he did state we’re just starting, in the later presser.Which meant, I assume, they have new info.... TIA

 

[BNA]

I could be confused, or missed something here.So, I’ll just ask for clarification, are you referencing the latest presser, the one from the one year or so anniversary? Or a way early one from the tine of the murders.
Thats what I’m confused about, because he did state we’re just starting, in the later presser.Which meant, I assume, they have new info.... TIA

Week after murders presser. Introductory presser, when so very many LE stood behind DC as he spoke.** Not the later one, when only Tobe was standing behind him. That is all. Today, on viewing the first, I finally understood that about the second.

**He used the just getting started phrase in that first one, as well