Found Deceased NEW ZEALAND - Grace Millane, 22, British backpacker, Auckland, 1 Dec 2018 *Arrest* #2

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LucyRocket said:
Justice Simon Moore is clarifying to the jury that murder isn't confined just to someone intentionally killing someone or causing their death. It can also refer to reckless actions that cause bodily injury or death.

Grace Millane murder trial: Live updates as Defence opens case, calls witnesses
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Very pleased the judge headed off some of the defence nonsense at the pass.

This is what I covered some pages back.

Under the NZ Crimes Act, it can be murder, even on the defence's own version of the facts, where the defendant must have realised his actions might kill Grace but then he proceeded anyway.

Similar to the Pistorius type situation where you shoot 4 bullets "at a door". Anyone can see that the person behind there may be killed.

So in this case if you strangle someone for minutes with great force, you must know you are risking killing the victim.
 
kiwilaura said:
He can’t be acquitted of killing her. He can be found not guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter. He has admitted he has killed her but is pleading not guilty to the specific charge of murder. He basically can’t be let off a manslaughter charge as he has said he knows he caused her death, he just didn’t mean it.

I honestly hope I’m wrong but this is how I see the trial ending.

I suspect they will present a pathologist that will say in not all cases will it be obvious that someone is dying (eg the convulsions) and they will say it’s reasonable that with the lights off and in the heat of the moment, and in his drunken state, he did not realise she had fallen unconscious.

Add in the fact that she dabbled in risky sex (but we are not victim blaming), I think they’ll create reasonable doubt.

I will be so happy to be wrong.
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Yes I can see it that way too. High likelihood this will end in a manslaughter conviction.
 
I think there is every chance she engaged in consensual choking with him. I am certain he then took it too far to live out a sick fantasy. Whilst he had not planned this, he took the opportunity, and I keep coming back to the fact he would have had to strangle her for minutes.

I can see how they should convict of murder, absolutely. The question that the jury might get stuck on is whether, in his intoxicated state, he was able to reasonably expect that he could kill her.

Also, I hate how the defense keeps saying he panicked. His actions were methodical and the opposite of panic in my opinion.
 
A question for those here who have experimented with strangulation during sex, or those who have more detailed knowledge of it - just to help me understand: how long would a person usually apply pressure to the neck of their partner? What is considered a safe amount of time? Will they go on until the partner utters the safe word (and how are they even able to do that when their neck is compressed?) or taps on their shoulder? Couldn't the partner become unconscious before being able to signal the other to stop?

I just feel this is such a dangerous practice and I can't really picture how this plays out at all - in a safe way. I can't help but wonder whether the amount of alcohol Grace had contributed to her ability and awareness to stop the act in time. Don't mean to blame her at all, I hope this is not how my thoughts come across! I stand by my opinion that the accused should have stopped immediately when Grace went limp. He didn't and the responsibility for her death therefore lies squarely on him.
 
Even if Grace was into rough sex and had certain ‘kinks’, it doesn’t mean she consented to being strangled to death. From her ex-boyfriend’s statements, it seems she was very safety-conscious and would have said if she felt uncomfortable or in danger. She used safe words with him and tapped three times if she wanted things to stop. I think the accused put Grace at ease enough to try this kind of sex with him and didn’t stop when she said the safe word/ tapped out, resulting in her death.

His actions after she died tell me he’s guilty. An innocent person would be doing everything they could to tell everyone it was accidental. They’d be taking the stand to defend themselves, they’d have told the truth in police interviews and most importantly, called an ambulance at the time to try and save Grace. Not to mention the awful pictures and his decision to watch *advertiser censored* before disposing of her body. I really don’t know how anyone on the jury could think this was manslaughter. He knew what he was doing.
 
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I don't think this was manslaughter at all. But the new evidence might cast doubt on murder unfortunately. I really don't like the thought of this man not serving much time and being a free man anytime soon.
 
jaejae said:
I do not know if this true about the websites but it is the Daily mail so must be. Here is another report about the case:

Grace Millane was a member of BDSM dating sites, jury hears | Daily Mail Online

Here is a BBC report:

Backpacker died 'when sex act went wrong'

A report from the Daily Mirror:

Brit backpacker 'went on BDSM sites and liked to be choked during sex'

A report from The Metro:

Grace Millane 'belonged to BDSM sites' murder trial in New Zealand hears | Metro News
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Ugh, media vultures! Could they be any more sensationalist with their headlines.
 
Just having a beer and catching up now. Wow. Some pretty heavy news from today. I was half-expecting it but I'm surprised by the extent.

As I said, and was shut down because of it, this is not that outrageous or unique for young people. It just isn't. But having an account on those specific sites is. I've never heard of Whiplr, but it seems more like a traditional dating app where you put up photos and swipe if you like them, than Fetlife which is a bit more of a social network (and looks like Myspace circa 2009).

Does anyone know if Millane's profiles on either are still accessible?

Again: pretty wow-ed by all of this.

It definitely opens up the accused's perspective and potential for his story to be, in parts, true: specifically the part that he did not intend to kill Millane and did indeed pass out in the shower.

It's a shame they never asked any concierges if he was indeed regularly carried to his bed drunk. If they said no, it'd be a dent to his story. At the current rate, things have gotten better for him.

He is a creep and has serious issues, but people shouldn't get obsessed with those details.
 
I feel so sorry for her parents having to listen to their daughters memory being tainted as I will admit I saw the papers today in the U.K. and even I at first judged her. I won’t be alone in that either but each to their own at the end of the day. I can’t imagine having my child murdered and then listening to all this mud being thrown about as he is guilty imo but he is casting doubt here and that’s all he needs.

IMO
 
kiwilaura said:
I think there is every chance she engaged in consensual choking with him. I am certain he then took it too far to live out a sick fantasy. Whilst he had not planned this, he took the opportunity, and I keep coming back to the fact he would have had to strangle her for minutes.

I can see how they should convict of murder, absolutely. The question that the jury might get stuck on is whether, in his intoxicated state, he was able to reasonably expect that he could kill her.

Also, I hate how the defense keeps saying he panicked. His actions were methodical and the opposite of panic in my opinion.
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BIB

FYI intoxication is not a defence

It was ruled out at common law because otherwise all the drunken murderers would get off (bar room fights etc)

So you can't argue your intention was compromised by being drunk. Criminal law has a few policy rules like this one. e.g if you take a shotgun to a bank robbery, you can't claim to shoot a bank teller in self defence when you in fact engineered the situation.
 
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asyousay said:
I feel so sorry for her parents having to listen to their daughters memory being tainted as I will admit I saw the papers today in the U.K. and even I at first judged her. I won’t be alone in that either but each to their own at the end of the day. I can’t imagine having my child murdered and then listening to all this mud being thrown about as he is guilty imo but he is casting doubt here and that’s all he needs.
As a mum of a 21 yr old daughter, my heart goes out to Grace's mum and dad . To have her memory sullied by the exposure of her private life is beyond awful . Imo her death was caused by one person only .

IMO
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All & Forward said:
It definitely opens up the accused's perspective and potential for his story to be, in parts, true: specifically the part that he did not intend to kill Millane and did indeed pass out in the shower.
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RSBM

As a technical evidential process, I think it only opens up one part of his story to be true.

I was brought up old school as far as witness evidence goes, so we need to look at whether the evidence he gave is both cogent and credible.

IMO he fails on both tests.

  1. Credibility: He lied to police at all times, and iterated his version to fit inconvenient facts as they emerged.
  2. Cogent: His new improved "true" story left out key facts and doesn't deal with the blood, photos or *advertiser censored* searches which explode his supposed version of events
With such a witness, a clear eyed Judge would throw their evidence in the bin except where it is supported by verifiable external facts.

So I think we have some evidence to support the idea Millane was up for "kink", and that may have been the genesis of her demise.

But there is simply no credible evidence that her death was an accident, that he fell asleep without noticing she was dead (twice LOL!) etc etc
 
Elainera said:
A question for those here who have experimented with strangulation during sex, or those who have more detailed knowledge of it - just to help me understand: how long would a person usually apply pressure to the neck of their partner? What is considered a safe amount of time? Will they go on until the partner utters the safe word (and how are they even able to do that when their neck is compressed?) or taps on their shoulder? Couldn't the partner become unconscious before being able to signal the other to stop?

I just feel this is such a dangerous practice and I can't really picture how this plays out at all - in a safe way. I can't help but wonder whether the amount of alcohol Grace had contributed to her ability and awareness to stop the act in time. Don't mean to blame her at all, I hope this is not how my thoughts come across! I stand by my opinion that the accused should have stopped immediately when Grace went limp. He didn't and the responsibility for her death therefore lies squarely on him.
Click to expand...

But maybe the other testimony from the woman he almost throttled earlier is important here. She, as far as I can remember, did not have a particular interest in BDSM yet according to her statement she still felt scared for her life?
 
All & Forward said:
Just having a beer and catching up now. Wow. Some pretty heavy news from today. I was half-expecting it but I'm surprised by the extent.

As I said, and was shut down because of it, this is not that outrageous or unique for young people. It just isn't. But having an account on those specific sites is. I've never heard of Whiplr, but it seems more like a traditional dating app where you put up photos and swipe if you like them, than Fetlife which is a bit more of a social network (and looks like Myspace circa 2009).

Does anyone know if Millane's profiles on either are still accessible?

Again: pretty wow-ed by all of this.

It definitely opens up the accused's perspective and potential for his story to be, in parts, true: specifically the part that he did not intend to kill Millane and did indeed pass out in the shower.

It's a shame they never asked any concierges if he was indeed regularly carried to his bed drunk. If they said no, it'd be a dent to his story. At the current rate, things have gotten better for him.

He is a creep and has serious issues, but people shouldn't get obsessed with those details.
Click to expand...


I am probably missing something here, but where in the defence is the obvious potential for passing out in the shower? I’m curious because in my experience one would tend to crash out after drinking followed by a night of consensual passion/ intimacy TOGETHER. This would have appeared to have been his preference certainly during his previous encounter with his previous date, he was anxious that she should stay with him, according to her testimony.
Like I say I am probably missing something .... but it’s just a bit of a convenient, and odd thing??

IMO
 
mrjitty said:
BIB

FYI intoxication is not a defence

It was ruled out at common law because otherwise all the drunken murderers would get off (bar room fights etc)

So you can't argue your intention was compromised by being drunk. Criminal law has a few policy rules like this one. e.g if you take a shotgun to a bank robbery, you can't claim to shoot a bank teller in self defence when you in fact engineered the situation.
Click to expand...

Bloody good to know. Fingers crossed.
 
asyousay said:
I feel so sorry for her parents having to listen to their daughters memory being tainted as I will admit I saw the papers today in the U.K. and even I at first judged her. I won’t be alone in that either but each to their own at the end of the day. I can’t imagine having my child murdered and then listening to all this mud being thrown about as he is guilty imo but he is casting doubt here and that’s all he needs.
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Unfortunately, i agree. I have followed this case since the beginning, and most of what has been in court was already out there, so i was so so certain this guy was a complete psychopath who was guilty as sin of murder of sweet Grace. Unfortunately the facts that have come out today really have made me question what I thought I knew....

If he is found not guilty of murder is it a given he is guilty of manslaughter? Or before trial was it the prosecution could either try for one or the other? Can new charged be added for disposal of the body, hiding evidence, lying in original interviews etc?
 
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