GUILTY NEW ZEALAND - Grace Millane, 22, British backpacker, Auckland, 1 Dec 2018 #3

[courtkim]

Can someone pretty please repost the definition of murder again according to the crimes act so it's front of mind? I can't find it but want to reread the wording to reassure myself.

 

[jamjim]

Right, I'm off for a few hours to (hopefully) sleep, although it will probably be fitful as my brain will be whirring with this case and whether the jury have come to a decision or not. Will catch up first thing in the morning. Maybe by this time tomorrow we will know one way or another.

 

[Mariposa]

Can someone pretty please repost the definition of murder again according to the crimes act so it's front of mind? I can't find it but want to reread the wording to reassure myself.

Is this it?
Crimes Act 1961 No 43 (as at 28 September 2017), Public Act 167 Murder defined – New Zealand Legislation

 

[courtkim]

Yes that's it, thank you!

 

[kiwilaura]

What worries me about the recklessness part is that he still had to have intent to injure her. The judge said only if they believe, by putting his hands around her neck, did he intend to cause her injury and was reckless with the possibility death could follow, can he be found guilty of murder.

 

[musicaljoke]

What worries me about the recklessness part is that he still had to have intent to injure her. The judge said only if they believe, by putting his hands around her neck, did he intend to cause her injury and was reckless with the possibility death could follow, can he be found guilty of murder.

He held his hands firmly there until she was dead. That wasn't a little oops.

 

[legal.beagle]

Grace Millane murder trial: How a jury deliberates to reach a verdict

Link to video of Justice Moore summing up. Likely information we have already gone over but nonetheless

 

[Sararara]

Hmm I think it all comes down to the photos and whether they are taken after death. The photos give meaning to the act in the mind of the accused. I can't see any other reason for him to search for the Waitakere ranges, so I have to assume Grace is dead when he takes the photos.

Being able to take them, on a separate note, is also evidence of a certain level of lucidity. When I used to get black-out drunk, my photos would be of random things- darkness, bits of the carpet, etc. Not photo shoots that required physical manipulation and targeting particular body parts.

I also think that if Grace was still alive at 1.30 am, she would be unlikely to have sex with the accused after that point, in the early hours of the morning. The choking must have occurred earlier. 5 hours after consuming that much alcohol is when you feel truly rubbish and want to sleep it off. Also, is it reasonable to expect that they had sex for that many hours?

Aside from that, is it even possible to accidentally strangle someone with your hands?

 

[Mariposa]

Hmm I think it all comes down to the photos and whether they are taken after death. The photos give meaning to the act in the mind of the accused. I can't see any other reason for him to search for the Waitakere ranges, so I have to assume Grace is dead when he takes the photos.

Being able to take them, on a separate note, is also evidence of a certain level of lucidity. When I used to get black-out drunk, my photos would be of random things- darkness, bits of the carpet, etc. Not photo shoots that required physical manipulation and targeting particular body parts.

I also think that if Grace was still alive at 1.30 am, she would be unlikely to have sex with the accused after that point, in the early hours of the morning. The choking must have occurred earlier. 5 hours after consuming that much alcohol is when you feel truly rubbish and want to sleep it off. Also, is it reasonable to expect that they had sex for that many hours?

Aside from that, is it even possible to accidentally strangle someone with your hands?

Good point about being sober enough to pose and take zoomed in pictures

Brookie said the Waitakere internet search could be because they were planning a date there the next day (ugh) or perhaps a random drunken google search. For both I say LOL, Brookie.

The way he was going yesterday I’m surprised he didn’t say his client “took Grace to the Waitakeres after all, duty bound to make good on his promise to show her them and grappling with non sinister panic and calmness” blah blah blah

 

[Kikixxxx]

Murder defined

Culpable homicide is murder in each of the following cases:

(a)
if the offender means to cause the death of the person killed:

(b)
if the offender means to cause to the person killed any bodily injury that is known to the offender to be likely to cause death, and is reckless whether death ensues or not:

(c)
if the offender means to cause death, or, being so reckless as aforesaid, means to cause such bodily injury as aforesaid to one person, and by accident or mistake kills another person, though he or she does not mean to hurt the person killed:

(d)
if the offender for any unlawful object does an act that he or she knows to be likely to cause death, and thereby kills any person, though he or she may have desired that his or her object should be effected without hurting any one.


What does the ‘object’ bit mean? I’d say this falls under that 4th one which is still classed as murder, not manslaughter.
I just read sentencing guidelines for manslaughter and it’s minimum 12 months maximum 8 years !! Can u imagine ...

 

[Mariposa]

Murder defined

Culpable homicide is murder in each of the following cases:

(a)
if the offender means to cause the death of the person killed:

(b)
if the offender means to cause to the person killed any bodily injury that is known to the offender to be likely to cause death, and is reckless whether death ensues or not:

(c)
if the offender means to cause death, or, being so reckless as aforesaid, means to cause such bodily injury as aforesaid to one person, and by accident or mistake kills another person, though he or she does not mean to hurt the person killed:

(d)
if the offender for any unlawful object does an act that he or she knows to be likely to cause death, and thereby kills any person, though he or she may have desired that his or her object should be effected without hurting any one.


What does the ‘object’ bit mean? I’d say this falls under that 4th one which is still classed as murder, not manslaughter.
I just read sentencing guidelines for manslaughter and it’s minimum 12 months maximum 8 years !! Can u imagine ...

d)
if the offender for any unlawful object does an act that he or she knows to be likely to cause death, and thereby kills any person, though he or she may have desired that his or her object should be effected without hurting any one

I don’t think this definition is in play here?

But, Like maybe you do arson on a building you think is empty but someone dies? You know fire is life threatening but didn’t want to hurt anyone while achieving the arson outcome, but still on the hook for murder

 

[Kikixxxx]

d)
if the offender for any unlawful object does an act that he or she knows to be likely to cause death, and thereby kills any person, though he or she may have desired that his or her object should be effected without hurting any one

I don’t think this definition is in play here?

But, Like maybe you do arson on a building you think is empty but someone dies?

Oh okay I must not of understood it correctly. I get what u mean now, wow as if that’s still classed as murder and not manslaughter. I’m feeling more optimistic about this now..

 

[kiwilaura]

I just read sentencing guidelines for manslaughter and it’s minimum 12 months maximum 8 years !! Can u imagine ...

RSBM

Where did you see this? This is what the law says:

11.69 The maximum sentence for manslaughter is life imprisonment. There is no minimum sentence, and sentencing is highly fact dependent.

New Zealand Law Commission: R139 Understanding family violence: Reforming the criminal law relating to homicide

However, I don’t think I can remember a time that anyone got life for manslaughter in NZ.

 

[Kikixxxx]

Oh no your right. God knows why this came up. I just googled it and it was a google answer...

 

[Elainera]

What worries me about the recklessness part is that he still had to have intent to injure her. The judge said only if they believe, by putting his hands around her neck, did he intend to cause her injury and was reckless with the possibility death could follow, can he be found guilty of murder.

bbm

I think it's "or" instead of "and". Being reckless is enough to be found guilty of murder.

Come to think of it, maybe the witness who almost suffocated on a previous date with him should sue him for attempted murder.

 

[legal.beagle]

FYI - again, this is all information we have already gone over but here is some reporting on more on the information the accused has given in respect of what allegedly happened after they arrived back to his room.

The man later tells police in a second interview with them that when they got back to his room, the cocktails and beers had kicked in.

"We were kissing, we were talking and kissing more."

A music channel was playing on the television in the background and at one point Grace asked him to turn it off. The man says she then began to talk about Fifty Shades of Grey.

"She told me that there's a few things she likes doing and that she'd done with her ex-partner. We started having sex, at first it was just normal. It was very placid."

The man says Grace then brought up the topic of bondage.

"And she started biting and she asked me to bite her so I did."

"I stopped at first and said, 'Is this something you really want to do?'"

He says Grace replied: "We're in the moment, let's just go with it."

The pair then talk for a while before having sex again.

"Holding my arms above my head and just biting and then she hit my butt ... and then she held me around my neck and pushed down.

"We started having more, I guess, violent sex."

The man says they then ended up on the floor and stopped to take intimate photos of each other.

"And then she told me to hold her throat and go harder."

Afterwards, the man says, he then went to the bathroom - but fell asleep in the shower.

He remembered waking up when it was still dark and crawled back into bed.

"I thought Grace had left.”


Grace Millane murder trial: a timeline from date to death

 

[Kikixxxx]

FYI - again, this is all information we have already gone over but here is some reporting on more on the information the accused has given in respect of what allegedly happened after they arrived back to his room.

The man later tells police in a second interview with them that when they got back to his room, the cocktails and beers had kicked in.

"We were kissing, we were talking and kissing more."

A music channel was playing on the television in the background and at one point Grace asked him to turn it off. The man says she then began to talk about Fifty Shades of Grey.

"She told me that there's a few things she likes doing and that she'd done with her ex-partner. We started having sex, at first it was just normal. It was very placid."

The man says Grace then brought up the topic of bondage.

"And she started biting and she asked me to bite her so I did."

"I stopped at first and said, 'Is this something you really want to do?'"

He says Grace replied: "We're in the moment, let's just go with it."

The pair then talk for a while before having sex again.

"Holding my arms above my head and just biting and then she hit my butt ... and then she held me around my neck and pushed down.

"We started having more, I guess, violent sex."

The man says they then ended up on the floor and stopped to take intimate photos of each other.

"And then she told me to hold her throat and go harder."

Afterwards, the man says, he then went to the bathroom - but fell asleep in the shower.

He remembered waking up when it was still dark and crawled back into bed.

"I thought Grace had left.”


Grace Millane murder trial: a timeline from date to death

Thank u! A lot more details in that than previously reported elsewhere

 

[Mariposa]

About his account, were they talking and kissing and having placid yet bitey sex for 4 hours before they had the fatal sex? Because that was the timeline Mr Brookie endorses—got back to room about 945pm, that the pics taken of Grace about 130am were when she was alive

 

[Kikixxxx]

“We started having more, I guess, violent sex."

The man says they then ended up on the floor and stopped to take intimate photos of each other.

"And then she told me to hold her throat and go harder."

It just doesn’t happen does it? I find it too hard to believe you’d be in the middle of some really nasty dirty sex and then stop for a quick photo shoot of each other’s genitals.

also the bit where he says she slaps his *advertiser censored* ... grace likes the submissive role, she even says So and that she’s not experimented with the “domme” side of things but is open too in one of the whiplr chats. Holding his arms above his head and hitting his butt isn’t the role of a submissive... his version just doesn’t add up at all.

 

[Mariposa]

Did he ever say anything about them eating food? From 5pm ish until the wee hours next day, drinking a ton lots of sex but never consumed any food....