Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #12

[deugirtni]

Missed this bit in my earlier post, both news reports and the others that suggest the S's were bound together, seem to stem from KD's sources, other news reports just state that they had wrists bound...rbbm.imo.
Who killed Barry and Honey Sherman? A new book offers fascinating insights. - Macleans.ca
"A: I can’t speak for Toronto police. But, as I understand it, the coats were pulled down but not enough to immobilize them. There’s also the detail about marks found on their wrists indicative of them being bound together; but those ties are removed and cannot be found."

Toronto Billionaires Were Likely Murdered by Contract Killers: Report
"The paper also reported that the Shermans’ were likely tied together by their wrists at some point and that there was no sign of drugs in their bodies that could explain their deaths."

Barry and Honey Sherman’s deaths investigated by private experts as ‘contract killing’: report
“There is evidence there were markings on the wrist as if each of their hands were bound together … but there were no ties or ropes found at the scene.”

Canadian billionaires were 'murdered', say private detectives
Hired investigators reportedly find markings on Barry and Honey Sherman's wrists indicating their hands had been tied up.

But all of those examples (except perhaps for the one below by vice.com, which may have simply been misunderstood by the writer when reading Donovan's report?), can all mean that each person's own wrists had been bound together. jmo.

"The paper also reported that the Shermans’ were likely tied together by their wrists at some point and that there was no sign of drugs in their bodies that could explain their deaths."

 

[ldlager]

I think a different ligature could have been used from behind, as dotr suggested. The belts were used first to restrain them while alive and kept them in position after death.

Maybe the killers went there armed with a gun and zips ties or something similar?

But how would te killers have stood behind them? There is no room.

 

[ldlager]

Missed this bit in my earlier post, both news reports and the others that suggest the S's were bound together, seem to stem from KD's sources, other news reports just state that they had wrists bound...rbbm.imo.
Who killed Barry and Honey Sherman? A new book offers fascinating insights. - Macleans.ca
"A: I can’t speak for Toronto police. But, as I understand it, the coats were pulled down but not enough to immobilize them. There’s also the detail about marks found on their wrists indicative of them being bound together; but those ties are removed and cannot be found."

Toronto Billionaires Were Likely Murdered by Contract Killers: Report
"The paper also reported that the Shermans’ were likely tied together by their wrists at some point and that there was no sign of drugs in their bodies that could explain their deaths."

Barry and Honey Sherman’s deaths investigated by private experts as ‘contract killing’: report
“There is evidence there were markings on the wrist as if each of their hands were bound together … but there were no ties or ropes found at the scene.”

Canadian billionaires were 'murdered', say private detectives
Hired investigators reportedly find markings on Barry and Honey Sherman's wrists indicating their hands had been tied up.

IIRC the book indicates the wrist markings were on the top of the wrists (not the palm side), and IIRC this was mentioned to try and discount that the markings came from the exercise bands that both used with the personal trainer.

 

[ldlager]

Lexi noted that *if* the railing was 3' exactly, her height at 5'8" was almost exactly three feet from her seat to the *top* of her head. But if B&H had belts around their necks, suspended by that railing, we can stop measuring their height at the height of their necks, as opposed to the tops of their heads? I'm not sure how many inches long an average sized head would be, plus I'm assuming the bodies were not sitting bolt upright either. As well, some people are longer in the torso, while others have a shorter torso and longer legs. Their 'seats' weren't actually 'seated' on the pool room floor, but slightly suspended, according to reports. Was the railing exactly 36" or could it have been 38"? How tall was BS? If six feet tall, that is four inches taller than Lexi, but heads usually measure more than that four inch difference. I think that sometimes us sleuthers put too much weight/value on particular words, ie maybe the railing appeared to be 'above' the bodies, but without taking into consideration the 'slump factor', nor the deduction for height minus head, etc. I can see how they each could've been strangled and then the belts and railing used as a 'pulley' like Lesi has suggested, purely for 'staging' effects though. (But the 'why' would sure be interesting to know!?)

There would have been little/no room for the killers to stand on the pool side of the railing to use the railing as a pulley. Don't forget, the bodies were facing away from the pool

 

[ldlager]

Lexi noted that *if* the railing was 3' exactly, her height at 5'8" was almost exactly three feet from her seat to the *top* of her head. But if B&H had belts around their necks, suspended by that railing, we can stop measuring their height at the height of their necks, as opposed to the tops of their heads? I'm not sure how many inches long an average sized head would be, plus I'm assuming the bodies were not sitting bolt upright either. As well, some people are longer in the torso, while others have a shorter torso and longer legs. Their 'seats' weren't actually 'seated' on the pool room floor, but slightly suspended, according to reports. Was the railing exactly 36" or could it have been 38"? How tall was BS? If six feet tall, that is four inches taller than Lexi, but heads usually measure more than that four inch difference. I think that sometimes us sleuthers put too much weight/value on particular words, ie maybe the railing appeared to be 'above' the bodies, but without taking into consideration the 'slump factor', nor the deduction for height minus head, etc. I can see how they each could've been strangled and then the belts and railing used as a 'pulley' like Lesi has suggested, purely for 'staging' effects though. (But the 'why' would sure be interesting to know!?)

Barry was about 6 ft tall. Once your butt is on the ground it doesn't matter how long the belt is, it has to be slack by definition, or can't be used to suspend a body

 

[Lexiintoronto]

But how would the killers have stood behind them? There is no room.

You’re right. I don’t know exactly where they were found, but I know we’ve heard they were facing away from the pool.

If they were in this circled area, the killers could be on the steps.



Sherman family investigators hand over earring and other evidence collected at murdered billionaires’ home to Toronto police | The Star

Or maybe they were restrained and a ligature was put on in the front? (Then removed like the wrist restraints.)

If something like a wide zip-tie was used, the killers would just have to apply it, wait and remove it. (Not to minimize what was done in any way.)

 

[casesensitive]

Another explanation for the 90 minute delay in calling 911 could be that the real estate agent assessed the scene as an obvious double-suicide, or even a murder-suicide (as police seemed to believe). I also think it must have been obvious that they were deceased due to the unique smell of decomposition. (Sorry to be graphic). The agent may have denoted that smell before the the other agent and clients had the chance to get further in the pool room.

If the agent thought s/s or m/s there would be no need to make an emergency call to police, no panic to leave the house for personal safety, and it would afford her the time to call MS for advice, in an effort to proceed in a "sensitive" way, with the family (and their reputation) as a main priority.

What happened over those 90 minutes before the cleaning lady called police is unknown, and no one will tell KD. Hopefully, they did tell LE what transpired, and if anybody present was out of sight for a time, or if anybody else came to the house before they got the call.

ETA Police responded to the 911 call thinking that someone required medical assistance. The first responders thought that maybe someone had a heart attack. 911 calls are recorded--this was certainly a call that was carefully scripted and provided few details. moo

 

[ABro]

I would be buying it on my Kindle. I wouldn't know how to steal. I don't know what a pirate site is. Kind of offended actually.

Glad to hear you're buying it and apologies for my accusatory question. In recent years, I have only heard people talk about downloading books when they are pirating. It seemed an unusual way to refer to acquiring the book and your initial posts about the book were so dismissive that it seemed hard to imagine you wanting to pay for it.

But assumptions can be wrong, as you have shown, and my experience is not universal. I hope you find the book interesting and informative.

 

[LadyL]

Glad to hear you're buying it and apologies for my accusatory question. In recent years, I have only heard people talk about downloading books when they are pirating. It seemed an unusual way to refer to acquiring the book and your initial posts about the book were so dismissive that it seemed hard to imagine you wanting to pay for it.

But assumptions can be wrong, as you have shown, and my experience is not universal. I hope you find the book interesting and informative.

I didn't mean to seem dismissive. Is downloading not the proper term? I'm no techie.

 

[sceawian]

I didn't mean to seem dismissive. Is downloading not the proper term? I'm no techie.

Using the term 'downloading' for buying an ebook is completely normal. You said nothing wrong. The other poster could've been more gracious with both their initial tone and their apology.

 

[nuff]

But how would te killers have stood behind them? There is no room.

I have never assumed they were actually killed where the bodies were found - interesting that others seem to have done. But killing them elsewhere and moving the bodies from wherever into position for sure argues for more than one perpetrator (which, if I recall correctly, is also what KD thinks.)

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Glad to hear you're buying it and apologies for my accusatory question. In recent years, I have only heard people talk about downloading books when they are pirating. It seemed an unusual way to refer to acquiring the book and your initial posts about the book were so dismissive that it seemed hard to imagine you wanting to pay for it.

But assumptions can be wrong, as you have shown, and my experience is not universal. I hope you find the book interesting and informative.

One day someday, I would be very interested in downloading to my Kindle an e-book about the unsolved A. Gleave murder case (2010), author ABro, written in your typical, nice, easy-to-read style, properly paid for it by me.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

bbm

“In the days and months after she was interviewed, she wondered why police had not taken her fingerprints or a DNA swab. Gold loved reading mysteries and watching detective shows on TV and had more than a passing knowledge of basic police techniques. After all, she thought, her DNA was all over the Sherman home, on the weights and other items she used to train Barry and Honey, for example. Weren’t police supposed to take DNA swabs and fingerprints from people known to have been at a crime scene so as to eliminate those people as suspects? Dahlia Solomon and Anita Franklin, who had recently been on that long golf trip with Honey, wondered the same thing. “I thought, our DNA is all over that Lexus,” Franklin recalls. The police would not begin taking any DNA or fingerprints until nine months later. In September 2018, a forensic identification officer with the Toronto Police visited Gold at home and took a DNA swab and her fingerprints.”

— The Billionaire Murders: The Mysterious Deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman by Kevin Donovan
The Billionaire Murders: The Mysterious Deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman


The above excerpt is one of a few instances in the book that made me believe that the TPS involved were still not looking for suspects in the months following the deaths.

There is a laundry list of TPS delays in obtaining evidence in this case, according to Donovan.

I know that part of pursuing a story like this, is that Donovan and the Star have to first find that it is in the public’s best interest to investigate and report the story.

The delay in calling 911 and the TPS delays in obtaining evidence need answers, IMO.

 

[Kittybunny]

I find the delay in calling 911 most intriguing. It's really quite astonishing. I can sort of kind of understand the need to call a relative first, thinking maybe they need their privacy or they should check given that they were public figures. I remember this happens sometimes in celebrity deaths. And along those same lines....just totally going down a weird path...what IF the delay was to stage the scene in a different way than from how they were found? To make it seem like something it wasn't? Even if the person wasn't involved, maybe there was something embarrassing in the way they were posed (naked, or some other bizarre configuration) and the agent wanted to preserve their dignity? I'm sure there were gloves in the house if needed.

I know it's totally far-fetched. But I have yet to imagine a really satisfactory explanation for not calling police when confronted with two dead bodies. I think it's instinctual to call for help ASAP!

The other point about how long it took TPS to collect critical evidence...just makes me shake my head.

 

[ldlager]

I find the delay in calling 911 most intriguing. It's really quite astonishing. I can sort of kind of understand the need to call a relative first, thinking maybe they need their privacy or they should check given that they were public figures. I remember this happens sometimes in celebrity deaths. And along those same lines....just totally going down a weird path...what IF the delay was to stage the scene in a different way than from how they were found? To make it seem like something it wasn't? Even if the person wasn't involved, maybe there was something embarrassing in the way they were posed (naked, or some other bizarre configuration) and the agent wanted to preserve their dignity? I'm sure there were gloves in the house if needed.

I know it's totally far-fetched. But I have yet to imagine a really satisfactory explanation for not calling police when confronted with two dead bodies. I think it's instinctual to call for help ASAP!

The other point about how long it took TPS to collect critical evidence...just makes me shake my head.

Think about the delay in calling. If we are to believe what KD was told, MS advised ES (the realtor) to call 911. Yet she didn't - for 90 minutes?? It's not like ES was a relative of the Shermans, nor were the plant waterer or the cleaning lady. They were just visitors at the house. There is no logical reason not to call 911 immediately- they were supposedly told by a relative to do so!!

My bet is that ES called SG, the listing realtor, and ES was told by SG not to call until advised otherwise. Or that MS told ES not to call LE until she was advised otherwise. But eventually the cleaning lady couldn't wait any longer, and finally called police.

I don't think its likely that someone close to the family arrived and reorganized or tampered with the crime scene. The cleaning lady went down and saw the bodies and the crime scene, and presumably would have told LE if what LE discovered was materially different than what she had seen. However, perhaps first responders changed the crime scene in a material way- perhaps cutting the belts or moving the bodies, we don't really know.

I am a reasonably unsquimish person, and I have seen some unpleasant things in my time, but there is NO WAY I would have gone near those bodies, unless there was a sign they were still alive and I could help them. I can't imagine an average person (like me) would be comfortable going near those bodies for other than applying potentially lifesaving measures.

 

[WINDSOR]

Interesting theories regarding the delay in calling 911. Was the crime scene altered, were the bodies moved or was there some other nefarious activity taking place?

My first reaction, is that 90 minutes is not an unusual delay. In my own experience, upon the discovering the death of someone you have an affinity too, everything slows down. You are hit with significance of the situation and your mind is filled with both memories and questions. You even question yourself if you could have done something preventive.

In a horrific scenario like this one, with several people present, I am sure there was a lot of discussion among themselves, especially regarding what had happened, and what to do, who to call, who not to call. Sometimes people 'freeze' or even faint, and have to be attended too. Again in my own experience, one can easily lose consciousness of time.

For each phone call made prior to 911, a detailed explanation would have be given to each interested party. These explanations would not be "The Shermans are dead, what do I do?" but long involved explanations with many questions to be addressed.

So in hindsight I do not think the 90 minute delay to call 911 was to out of the ordinary.

 

[deugirtni]

Considering the speed at which news travels nowadays, I can certainly understand they'd want to notify immediate family members first before word got into the public sphere. It would be terrible to find out your parents (or two unnamed individuals at your parents' home) were found deceased by way of social media, or a phonecall from a friend who'd seen something on SM. And given the social stature of the victims, I'm thinking word would have gotten loose as soon as emergency vehicles started arriving at the house. We are told that MS was able to reach JS first, I'm assuming right away.. and I can't remember who was supposed to tell the other three adult children.. but is it possible they wanted to make sure that all four of the kids heard the news from a family member before letting it loose to the public, knowing that the couple was dead and that nothing could be done? Although an hour and a half seems like a hella long time, especially considering that cellphones provide immediate access, and I'm assuming all of the kids use one? Still I agree that it should be explained, but I'm sure it *has* been explained to police.

Some might argue that if not a medical expert, one couldn't know for certain if the victims were deceased, but if it had already potentially been some 36 hours, presumably in a warm, humid environment - I'm pretty sure that most anyone would know for SURE they were dead.

 

[ldlager]

Considering the speed at which news travels nowadays, I can certainly understand they'd want to notify immediate family members first before word got into the public sphere. It would be terrible to find out your parents (or two unnamed individuals at your parents' home) were found deceased by way of social media, or a phonecall from a friend who'd seen something on SM. And given the social stature of the victims, I'm thinking word would have gotten loose as soon as emergency vehicles started arriving at the house. We are told that MS was able to reach JS first, I'm assuming right away.. and I can't remember who was supposed to tell the other three adult children.. but is it possible they wanted to make sure that all four of the kids heard the news from a family member before letting it loose to the public, knowing that the couple was dead and that nothing could be done? Although an hour and a half seems like a hella long time, especially considering that cellphones provide immediate access, and I'm assuming all of the kids use one? Still I agree that it should be explained, but I'm sure it *has* been explained to police.

Some might argue that if not a medical expert, one couldn't know for certain if the victims were deceased, but if it had already potentially been some 36 hours, presumably in a warm, humid environment - I'm pretty sure that most anyone would know for SURE they were dead.

I understand your rationale. But in this case, I don’t think it applies. ES apparently called MS, described the situation, and MS apparently told the realtor ES to call 911. Neither ES, or the cleaning lady, nor the plant waterer were busy calling relatives of the Sherman’s- MS started doing that after she hung up from ES. So it’s most difficult to understand how the three of them sat around upstairs, with no relatives to call, and they decided to call 911 only 90 minutes later? It makes absolutely no sense, band hopefully LE has obtained an explanation.

 

[casesensitive]

I can understand why it would be important for the kids to be informed of their parent's (let's assume obvious) deaths before the 911 call was made. Is it possible that the delay was in trying to reach JS which was unsuccessful? I can't see MS leaving a phone message stating the horrid details. I'm also not sure why he would lie about not knowing, if in fact it would come out that his aunt told him first. Maybe they couldn't hold off calling 911 after not being able to reach him.

TORONTO—Police found the bodies seated side by side near an indoor swimming pool. Two belts were looped around their necks and fastened to a railing.

Soon after, on that mid-December day, Jonathon Sherman spotted a social-media feed that said his father, pharmaceutical billionaire Barry Sherman, and his mother, Honey, had been found dead at home.

After a Billionaire and His Wife Are Found Dead, Their Children Try to Crack the Case

 

[nuff]

[QUOTE="casesensitive, post: 15602107, member: 80977"
Soon after, on that mid-December day, Jonathon Sherman spotted a social-media feed that said his father, pharmaceutical billionaire Barry Sherman, and his mother, Honey, had been found dead at home.

After a Billionaire and His Wife Are Found Dead, Their Children Try to Crack the Case[/QUOTE]

I think that statement was just media sensationalism. IMO the delay in calling 911 was simply due to the absence of anyone on the scene with clear authority to act, plus the need to reach MS etc by phone, to explain, to allow for shock etc. I may have forgotten, but in the end, do we know who did call 911? Is there a recording of the call?