Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Itsapuzzle]

Okay, so I've typed up a transcript of Fernand's conversation with Alison. If anyone wants a copy of it, just message the Itsapuzzle thingo, and will send to you. Or if you want it posted here, I will do that - it's 1983 words - not sure if you want a post that big? Let me know, hey! Fernand's answers totally match up with the post put up by Intriguedbyintrigued, re how to treat/approach people from Luxembourg ..... I think he's a good guy, just like his ex-wife said.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Okay, so I've typed up a transcript of Fernand's conversation with Alison. If anyone wants a copy of it, just message the Itsapuzzle thingo, and will send to you. Or if you want it posted here, I will do that - it's 1983 words - not sure if you want a post that big? Let me know, hey! Fernand's answers totally match up with the post put up by Intriguedbyintrigued, re how to treat/approach people from Luxembourg ..... I think he's a good guy, just like his ex-wife said.

Wow! Awesome work Itsapuzzle!

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Teachers Credit Union. Teachers Health. A different bank, and health insurance. Did he talked to them to ensure she didn't have accounts with both (which would be highly unusual for a teacher of her generation), or because she did? How much was in the colonial account? How much was in the credit union account? I don't suppose there were any lotto wins in SE QLD in 1997? Will have to dig.....

Still thinking about this!
With all the confusion about banking over the course of the podcast I wonder why they havent reached out Ray Barter to see if he remembers Marions financial set up (the banks/insurance companies she used, if she had a tax agent etc. They divorced 8 years before she disappeared but he would be a potential source of information nevertheless.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

While they wait for the NCAT decision the podcast team should do an episode where they answer listener questions!!

I have lots!
Could Marion read French?
Was Marion an active union member?
When did Sally get engaged?
When did Marion advise the family of her flight date? Months prior or just before she left?
Was the arrangement to store Marion's TSS classroom stuff in her parents garage made on her last day of school or was this planned in advance?
Did Lesley get a copy of the mail redirection?
How long was the redirection set up for?
When did Lesley stop receiving mail? Was there a lot of mail and did the volume change noticeably over time?When Lesley helped Marion pack did they use branded packing boxes or just boxes/containers Marion had?
Did Marion speak about her return?Was she planning to stay with Lesley when she came back?

 

[sunnynz]

While they wait for the NCAT decision the podcast team should do an episode where they answer listener questions!!

I have lots!
Could Marion read French?
Was Marion an active union member?
When did Sally get engaged?
When did Marion advise the family of her flight date? Months prior or just before she left?
Was the arrangement to store Marion's TSS classroom stuff in her parents garage made on her last day of school or was this planned in advance?
Did Lesley get a copy of the mail redirection?
How long was the redirection set up for?
When did Lesley stop receiving mail? Was there a lot of mail and did the volume change noticeably over time?When Lesley helped Marion pack did they use branded packing boxes or just boxes/containers Marion had?
Did Marion speak about her return?Was she planning to stay with Lesley when she came back?

Why not message sally and the podcast team with these questions and propose it?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Telephone conversation - The Lady Vanishes Podcast/Fernand​

Hello?
Hello Fernand, how are you?
Who is there?

It's Alison Sandy, I'm the executive producer of The Lady Vanishes. We haven't met.
I don't speak - I don't speak to someone who secretly records conversations.

Well, I'm actually not secretly recording it, that's what we're doing, this is an interview that we're going to do with you.
No, yeah. Yes, you secretly record conversations, or am I wrong?

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about because I only just got on the phone.
You don’t know, okay.

I only just got on the phone, and as you know we wanted to do an interview as - for like to answer the questions for the podcast.
You recorded all we have done here, okay. Am I right or wrong?

When? What are we talking about?
When you were here, you were not here in Luxembourg?

I wasn't here in - I wasn't there in Luxembourg. No, I'm - I'm the executive producer, I'm in Australia, and I am recording now because we - we spoke to Marie yesterday about getting you on the record with some of the
questions ….
Who are you? Who are you?

My name's Alison Sandy and I'm the executive producer of The Lady Vanishes podcast from the 7 Network.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Give me the address of, um - of - how - I don't - even don't know her name - Sally ….

Sally, yeah, Sally Leydon
L L
E Y
Yes.
D O ….
Y Y - you mean L like Leopold
Yes.
E like Ernest
Yes Ernest
Y like William.
No, Y like yankee.
Ah yankee, yes, yankee.
D like - - -
Yes, Dagobert. Dagobert.
Yep, yep Dagobert.
Dagobert. O like Oscar. Yes.
Yes
And Nicholas, yes.

Yes, Nicholas.
Okay, Sally Leydon … I even don't know the name of Sally Leydon, only Sally, and she records all we speak and …. what do you want, I ……what do you want?

Well, we wanted to know whether you placed an ad in Le Courrier Australien back in - in 1994.
I want to contact Sally Leydon, give me the address of Sally Leydon. Address and email and all you have, and telephone number.

Well, what would be easier, if it's okay, can I email you all those details that you want?
No, no, I don't - no, no I don’t give you my email because then your Sally Leydon will - will attack me and ….

She doesn't want to attack you. All we wanted to know is whether or not you authored the advertisement in Le Courrier Australien, just because you were the only one we could find that fit the description in 1994
I don't understand. We could speak French or German if you want, or Luxembourgish; you don’t understand that.

I could get somebody to speak to you in that language. I'm happy to have these questions asked in Luxembourgish.
M''mm. M'mm. Yes, make it like that. Give me the address and telephone number and - and telephone number and email address of Sally Leydon, and you can send that by post letter. I will have that in two days. M'mm. No problems. Okay.

Okay, so you want us to mail in the post like we did the questions. Did you get the questions? We sent them in Luxembourgish?
I don't have nothing. I don't have nothing.

Well, we sent it in - by registered mail to your Luxembourgish address.
The address of mine, mail?

Yes. And it said you accepted it.
Yes, you must have a confirmation that I accepted it?

Yes.
You have a confirmation?

Yes, because we sent it the first time.
You have - you have a confirmation that I accepted it?

Yes.
It's my signature; it's my name?

Well yes because we sent it ….
Do you have that?

Yes, yes we do, because we sent it the first time and it was sent back to us.
Yes.

But the second time it says that it arrived.
No. No. No, If you show me my name on the receipt you are right.

So you're saying you didn't accept any questions?
You make me a copy of the receipt with my name on it when you send me the - the address of Sally Leydon and I - you are right, but you can't do that because I didn't receive something.

You didn't receive or you didn't accept?
No. I didn't accept.

You didn't accept. Okay, so you're - so just to clarify, you're not interested in answering any of our questions?
What do you say?

You don't want to answer our questions.
Yeah, I want the address of Sally Leydon. I have to do with someone who records our conversations and everything, and I have even not the name of that person!
Do you find that normal?

I'm kind of confused because we're a media organisation, so we record interviews and we were there to do an interview, so that wasn't a secret.
Secretly, secretly.

No. It wasn't ….
Clandestine, clandestinely. That's illicit, you know that, that's illicit in every - in every country. You did that. Yes.

I don't know what you're saying.
You were not there so you cannot say if it's true or it's not true.

Okay.
Yes, okay.

Well, I'm recording this and I'm trying to get answers to the questions. Will you answer any of my questions?
You now are recording? Give me the address of Sally Leydon for a letter. H'mm? I will accept that letter and then we - and then we - and then I will reply, okay.

Okay, so you're saying you'll only - - -
Do you know - do you know it's 7 o'clock here, do you know that?

Yes. Yes, I do know. I do know.
7 o'clock in the morning.

Yes. Yes. Yes I do know that.
You do.

Yes.
Yes.

Yes, I mean if this was not your preferred time I thought Marie would advise yesterday if you want me to ring back at a different time I'm more than happy to.
Yeah, yeah, yesterday it was also 7 o'clock.

7 o'clock, yeah.
Yeah.

Well, I just thought that was a respectable time because obviously that's when we start having radio calls.
A respectable time. Okay. So you give me the address of Sally and then we continue, okay.

Okay, so what you're saying is you will answer my questions if I give you Sally Leydon's address.
If you give me this address of Sally Leydon, that's all I ask you. You do it or you don't do it, that's your …..

Well that's fine, I mean, I don't have it on me now.
Okay.

But in the meantime as I said to Marie, I said look if we could just get answers to these questions we could just let this finish, you know because like, we know that you - obviously you played football, international football and we have a couple of questions.
Give me the address of Sally Leydon, okay.

All right. So you're not gonna answer any questions. All right. Can you at least tell me ….
Give me the address of Sally Leydon. Okay.

That's fine. Fernand, can you just at least tell us if you wrote the ad?
Ah, what did you - do you say?

Could you at least let us know if you wrote the ad in Le Courrier Australien. This is what this has all been about.
I don’t understand now. No, I don’t - I don't understand what you say .

Well, you would have seen it all on the internet, it's this advertisement Le Courrier Australien (1994) Fernand Remakel wrote an advertisement looking ….
I don't answer any questions. Give me the name of Sally Leydon and - and the address and telephone. Does she - does she have a fixed residence?

She does, yes. So what you're saying is …
Yes, she does. So you are - why does she not say - say her name and - and her address and everything? Does she have a fixed residence, yes?

Why do you want this? Why do you want Sally's address and all the details? Do you want to speak to her, or …
Ah ah ah …. she has my address, she has everything of me, and I - and she wants something from me and I even don't know her name! I don't know if in Australia people are not - not intelligent or logical, I don't know.

It wasn't Sally, I mean we're doing it on Sally's behalf because I mean we're journalists. I mean, even journalists in Luxembourg will turn up to somebody's house to speak to them, and knock on their door and things like that, that's not ….
Give me the address now, now we - we finish now. You give me the address of Sally Leydon or you give me not the address of Sally Leydon and we finish now, okay.

Can you - can you just let me know why you want it?
Okay? You give me the address.

It's fine, I just don't have it on me. I'll have to ask Sally's permission, I can't just do it without her permission.
Ah! Oh, your permission. And she has the permission to have my address! Did you ask her permission to have my address?

Well you know you could find out her address outside of me, just like we found out your address.
Huh! Someone comes here and even don't - doesn't say his name! Do you find that normal? Do you find that normal? Perhaps it's normal in your country ….

They did say their name, Fernand.
You're finished now, you give me the address of Sally Leydon and …

I just want you to know that I'm sorry you're so upset about all this, we're just trying to go about this the right way and that's why we had these questions and we're just trying to do it in a way that's respectful. We're not turning up to your house …
And you give me - and you give me my signature on the - on the letter I had, okay.

I'm just saying about the accepted - it arrived, that's what we have been told it arrived, so you - I can understand that you haven't accepted it, that's fine, that's what you have told me now, I believe you in what you're saying. But anyway, just as I said, we want to try, when did you want me to get back to you with Sally, did you want me to call you with sally's details if that ….
Give me the address of Sally Leydon - right now we finish, ah - it's now finished. Okay.

Do you want me to call you with her details?
And your name was Alison? Alison?

Sandy, S A N D Y. Did you want me to call her with your details because I have your number obviously, that's the easiest way to get it or you want me to send it in the mail? Is that sort of ….
No, send it by letter you - you make pretty letters I see.

Okay, but will you accept that letter? But will you accept that letter …
Send it by letter, okay. Okay, we finish now, okay.

Okay, all right. Thanks Fernand. Take care.
Okay

All right. Bye.
Bye

 

[thunderwombat]

Well, you would have seen it all on the internet, it's this advertisement Le Courrier Australien (1994) Fernand Remakel wrote an advertisement looking ….
I don't answer any questions. Give me the name

No no no. This is an outright lie from Alison Sandy. Nowhere was the name Fernand mentioned in the announcement, which she knew very well. She also knew that 7am is almost one hour before sunrise. This was a cheap trick designed to catch him out and it didn't work.

Great work itsapuzzle, you have more patience than me,

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Just my opinion, but also the mention of ... "No, send it by letter you - you make pretty letters I see" - I reckon that refers to the colourful 7 logos on the envelope, not what's actually inside the envelope, I believe he hasn't opened them, so he doesn't know what the questions are. Right from the start there seems to have been a bit of a culture/manners clash ... just my thoughts anyway.

 

[thunderwombat]

Just my opinion, but also the mention of ... "No, send it by letter you - you make pretty letters I see" - I reckon that refers to the colourful 7 logos on the envelope, not what's actually inside the envelope, I believe he hasn't opened them, so he doesn't know what the questions are.

That hadn't even occurred to me but it makes total sense.

...Right from the start there seems to have been a bit of a culture/manners clash ... just my thoughts anyway.

My thoughts too. There is so much cringe in the way this has been handled. Where was the local journalist they were liaising with? Hiding from embarrassment probably.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Why not message sally and the podcast team with these questions and propose it?

Good idea - let's see what happens

 

[Mel 1303]

While they wait for the NCAT decision the podcast team should do an episode where they answer listener questions!!

I am one of the minority who does not want to see a positive result at the NCAT hearing. The coroner is reviewing the case, to see if an inquest should be held. In the meantime, two separate police investigations, both of which were fairly thorough if you pick through the details in the podcast, found her to have chosen to walk away from her life. There is no crime in going missing. Marion has broken no law. According to the law, if she walks away, and states to a person in authority that they are doing this of there own accord, then any other information should be withheld. I would like to see Marion's rights considered here as well- let see what the coroner has to say. If the coroner determines that an inquest is justified, then that is a different story.

I am concerned about the precedent being sent. What if the next podcast features a daughter/son/partner/parent who besides the scenes is a manipulative narcissist who was the one who left the missing person feeling they had no choice but to disappear? Of if there is domestic violence, and a podcast can whip up enough of a frenzy to deliver the victim right back to their abuser? On the podcast, there have been continual references to NSW police not following their own protocols, even though they actually are according to NSW law. One look at TLV facebook post about the police, and there certainly is a frenzy amongst people who just lap up things that are said, even if the facts behind the statement have been bent somewhat to fit a narrative.

 

[Mel 1303]

No no no. This is an outright lie from Alison Sandy. Nowhere was the name Fernand mentioned in the announcement, which she knew very well. She also knew that 7am is almost one hour before sunrise. This was a cheap trick designed to catch him out and it didn't work.

Great work itsapuzzle, you have more patience than me,

Yet in the last conversations, there was puzzlement over why people would hang up on them. So far as to say it was rude. Respect and cooperation are two way streets.

 

[Mel 1303]

With regards to the search in Armidale. In the last conversations, Sally mentioned asking Garry for more details about the search (long time ago- evasive answer) and whether it was one day or two. (We weren't told the answer). Again, it was mentioned that the police only authorised Garry, the dog and the handler. Sally has said it should be a proper search, including the SES. Garry said that had already happened. I think, in the last conversation, what Sally said identified the confusion. Sally would be correct that the police only authorised Garry, the dog and the handler. They are with the police, and therefore can be authorised by those higher up than Garry. Garry said that he organised the SES- which would be right, as the SES are a highly trained, highly respected volunteer organisation, always ready to assist emergency services but not able to be ordered to conduct a search. So the police authorised Garry, the dog, the handler, and Garry requested SES. There have been comparisons to the search for Mathew Levison and the search for Marion.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I am one of the minority who does not want to see a positive result at the NCAT hearing. The coroner is reviewing the case, to see if an inquest should be held. In the meantime, two separate police investigations, both of which were fairly thorough if you pick through the details in the podcast, found her to have chosen to walk away from her life. There is no crime in going missing. Marion has broken no law. According to the law, if she walks away, and states to a person in authority that they are doing this of there own accord, then any other information should be withheld. I would like to see Marion's rights considered here as well- let see what the coroner has to say. If the coroner determines that an inquest is justified, then that is a different story.

I am concerned about the precedent being sent. What if the next podcast features a daughter/son/partner/parent who besides the scenes is a manipulative narcissist who was the one who left the missing person feeling they had no choice but to disappear? Of if there is domestic violence, and a podcast can whip up enough of a frenzy to deliver the victim right back to their abuser? On the podcast, there have been continual references to NSW police not following their own protocols, even though they actually are according to NSW law. One look at TLV facebook post about the police, and there certainly is a frenzy amongst people who just lap up things that are said, even if the facts behind the statement have been bent somewhat to fit a narrative.

Well said Mel1303. I 100% wholeheartedly agree.
Marion gave a very clear indication she wanted no contact with her family. Marions privacy does count! The privacy act protects against stalkers, con-artists, abusers and other nasties, it's a precedent we do not want set.

I hope that if there is an inquest that there is a strict media suppression on the proceedings to protect Marion.
I feel the podcast dehumanizes Marion to get listeners on board - notice that Sally doesnt talk of touching/loving moments with her Mum. Marion is talked about as a subject.

 

[StarrChance]

I think about Marion every day. I now believe she did intend to disappear for reasons only known to her.

When someone is long term missing or dead there is a tendency to be talked about in the best light. This is true with many who knew her socially on the podcast. I think they are sincere in their feelings, Marion was exceptional to them.
Some of the closer people to Marion are a little more circumspect about her, a ex husband and sister and even Sally.

I have known people who to me seem somewhat similar to Marion, I’ll make dot points to try not to ramble

Like/need to feel important or special and enjoy being looked up to, their career choice is often reflected in this eg. Minister, Dr etc.

Go out of their way to help and are able to charm others who think they are wonderful.

The reality of their home/family life is very different and dysfunctional.

Unable to really get to “know” them, only superficially.

It is interesting that Marion is described as “private”

Basically lots of narcissistic traits. Lack of empathy is one of them. Sally said her mother would never leave like that but she may not understand these type of people don’t feel as they do. I have come to believe that everything Marion did was pre planned and very calculated. She obviously was very secretive before she went missing, it only adds to a planned new life. I now doubt Marion was conned or fooled by someone else. Hopefully Sally can find a answer.

 

[Mel 1303]

Sorry about my last post. I started to write something about the comparison between the search for Mathew Levison and Marion. I thought I had deleted it all, but a sentence remained. Just want to check a few points- will post soon.

 

[Garyb]

Well said Mel1303. I 100% wholeheartedly agree.
Marion gave a very clear indication she wanted no contact with her family. Marions privacy does count! The privacy act protects against stalkers, con-artists, abusers and other nasties, it's a precedent we do not want set.
I hope that if there is an inquest that there is a strict media suppression on the proceedings to protect Marion.
I feel the podcast dehumanizes Marion to get listeners on board - notice that Sally doesnt talk of touching/loving moments with her Mum. Marion is talked about as a subject.

Unfortunatly it has turned into a circus to entertain the masses really it is none of our business.
I have no idea what happened to Marion but i dont suspect foul play at the time she went away.
If she is still alive imagine what this is doing to her new life!!!

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Imagine if the Marion Barter file dropped on your desk for investigation, for the first time ... you flick through it, who piques your interest? Who do you decide to interview/speak with first? H'mmm, myself, I would go straight to "the dentist" who declared the photo of Florebella Natalia Marion Remakel to be a true photo of Marion Barter ... they have the name and address of said person, I believe. I feel the dentist holds the key .... who is he/she? Completely interested to find out and hear their story. The ad in Le Courrier, definitely have to find out who placed that ad ... that's in second position, it's just so curious that it's a Lennox Head PO Box, Ballina phone number, surname that apparently was not in the country at the time .... I've started hunting through Le Courrier archives again, looking for a clue, there must be something we're missing there .... ah well, there it is .....

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Imagine if the Marion Barter file dropped on your desk for investigation, for the first time ... you flick through it, who piques your interest? Who do you decide to interview/speak with first? H'mmm, myself, I would go straight to "the dentist" who declared the photo of Florebella Natalia Marion Remakel to be a true photo of Marion Barter ... they have the name and address of said person, I believe. I feel the dentist holds the key .... who is he/she? Completely interested to find out and hear their story. The ad in Le Courrier, definitely have to find out who placed that ad ... that's in second position, it's just so curious that it's a Lennox Head PO Box, Ballina phone number, surname that apparently was not in the country at the time .... I've started hunting through Le Courrier archives again, looking for a clue, there must be something we're missing there .... ah well, there it is .....[/QUOTE

Those are all really good questions and the whole Remakel thing is evidently one of 2 things I feel. Either... this was very possibly not their real name at all. In which case it was likely a French speaker originating from any French country in the world. But if just a pseudonym why would they get Marion to change her name to Remakel? So maybe they both did. Maybe this man was changing his identity anyway. Maybe he knew a Remakel. Quite possibly, unbeknownst to him he was acquainted with fernand Remakel or was a football fan and took the name from him. Marion changed her name in 1997. Maybe he did too. Maybe an answer lies in another possible name change to Remakel somewhere in the world.. Very possibly in Luxembourg. Not sure how one could go about getting that info... Most likely just the the police.

The second possibility is his name was Remakel and for whatever reason he posted the ad.. Hoping to find an Australian female, with the long term plan of making a new life with her.. Perhaps if no Remakel entered Australia within those years, maybe Marion visited him? Do we know of any solo vacations she took in the years previous to her disappearance? And what about checking flight records into the UK under Remakel? Maybe they met at an agreed point and both wanted to visit UK so did so together? I wonder whether in correspondence Remakel explained where he was from, but he had a friend in Australia who lived near ballina and set up the ad in his name on his behalf and asked him what to write and acted as a go between when contacting La courrier. Just some thoughts....

 

[Sophie-Renee]

..Just another thought..can we be sure that Marion had no links with or made any connection with the US or spoke of anyone in the US?I took a little search via ancestry and a definite coincidental name came up, with records fitting with Marion's timeline. For example- their marriage is dated 6 months before the La Courrier ad and their divorce is dated 5 days before Marion's name change. Their age is one year below F. Remakel's. Obviously I don't want to go into specifics, it' wouldn't be fair, in same way as Fernand -but wonder if these finds warrant more consideration.