IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #3

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The window was BROKEN ??!! Ok if it was broken in any way then this is a different story.

They can be 'sticky' but sticky or anything but perfect is a legal problem
I think that is just a story he told his family. NO ONE has ever reported a broken window before.

I am certain the attorney would be shouting that to high heaven if it were true.
 
A liner is baby proof it's just not idiot proof. Chloe was perfectly safe where she was. Perfectly safe, it's that some idiot put her in harms way.

It's against the law in Australia to leave

c
Thx. That helps. I'm having trouble processing it all. I'm an emotional Grandma.


dogs, anything in a hot car. Idiots still do and it's the children who suffer.
Recently we had a death of two toddlers left in a car overnight and discovered by their mother at 2 pm the next afternoon. It's summer here in Aust. Was she charged? Hell yeah - DOUBLE MURDER.
Was it a mistake after a big drink the night before? Big tragic mistake, murder is perfect IMO. Allegedly she's had boiling water poured over her already.

She'll blame addiction, SA blames eyesight. No-one wins, no-one.
A liner is baby proof it's just not idiot proof. Chloe was perfectly safe where she was. Perfectly safe, it's that some idiot put her in harms way.

It's against the law in Australia to leave children, dogs, anything in a hot car. Idiots still do and it's the children who suffer.
Recently we had a death of two toddlers left in a car overnight and discovered by their mother at 2 pm the next afternoon. It's summer here in Aust. Was she charged? Hell yeah - DOUBLE MURDER.
Was it a mistake after a big drink the night before? Big tragic mistake, murder is perfect IMO. Allegedly she's had boiling water poured over her already.

She'll blame addiction, SA blames eyesight. No-one wins, no-one.
 
I disagree about a cruise liner being baby proof with the dangers of open railings, staircases, balconies, pools, etc. Toddlers need to be watched with close supervision. Who would have thought the biggest danger to Chloe on the cruise would be grandpa, apparently he needed supervision too!

I agree with you, no winners here.
 
I think that is just a story he told his family. NO ONE has ever reported a broken window before.

I am certain the attorney would be shouting that to high heaven if it were true.
Totally agree. I think the broken window story is just that... another story.
I mean... was the window broken, or did he not see that the window was open? and who wanted to bang on the glass, SA or Chloe? and were they trying to get a better view? was he holding her with one hand or two? did he dangle her? did he drop her or did she slip out of his arms?
It's the ever- changing story and the " broken window" is no doubt just another excuse SA or his family came up with. I don't take it seriously, as we haven't been given a straight answer since this tragedy happened. I lose more respect for SA and this family with each passing day. And don't get me started on what I think of MW. Subjecting us to the daily spinning of Winkleman's "Red- Hot Wheel of Blame..." where will it land today, ladies and gentleman? Place your bets. I don't mean to make light of this tragedy but its ridiculous and very sad that a grown man can't take responsibility for his actions. And that so many are enabling his denial. I can't imagine what this family is going through and my heart does go out. But why is everyone protecting Gramps? I just don't get it. I think there is so much more to this story than we know. And I for one hope they release the video. That is where we will find the answers. JMO
 
IMO the police believed it was an accident until they saw the footage and then saw otherwise.
I think so as well - my guess is he looked out (knowing the window was open - not broken) picked her up held her outside the opening and dropped her (possible squirming?) IMO after viewing footage and talking to witnesses PR arrested him - he should have admitted his fault instead of all these stories - people may have been sympathetic even though his stupid behavior cost a baby’s life
JMO
 

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Always follow the money.

I did not intend to insult any sleuthers with the family’s psychological issues. But I’m convinced it’s a big money payout issue.

Immediately hiring a maritime lawyer reeks. Criminal lawyer is understandable, especially in light of the mom and dad’s strong ties to law enforcement. They knew what SA did was a criminal act. But as I recall, SA didn’t have a criminal lawyer immediately.
You know, this just hit me: maybe SA had a similar incident in his past somewhere.
And which family member is truly pushing he’s not guilty of a crime? Does he have some kind of security clearance? St. Joseph’s is a string of hospitals in Indiana.
Detective Wiegand’s parents are silent. Really?
IIRC he’s in IT - I think his employer issued a statement at one point ?
 
Totally agree. I think the broken window story is just that... another story.
I mean... was the window broken, or did he not see that the window was open? and who wanted to bang on the glass, SA or Chloe? and were they trying to get a better view? was he holding her with one hand or two? did he dangle her? did he drop her or did she slip out of his arms?
It's the ever- changing story and the " broken window" is no doubt just another excuse SA or his family came up with. I don't take it seriously, as we haven't been given a straight answer since this tragedy happened. I lose more respect for SA and this family with each passing day. And don't get me started on what I think of MW. Subjecting us to the daily spinning of Winkleman's "Red- Hot Wheel of Blame..." where will it land today, ladies and gentleman? Place your bets. I don't mean to make light of this tragedy but its ridiculous and very sad that a grown man can't take responsibility for his actions. And that so many are enabling his denial. I can't imagine what this family is going through and my heart does go out. But why is everyone protecting Gramps? I just don't get it. I think there is so much more to this story than we know. And I for one hope they release the video. That is where we will find the answers. JMO

Some prior mishap but not a fatality that SA caused and they are trying to keep it quiet? Once again, IMHOO.
“Me doth thinketh she protests too much.”
 
I think so as well - my guess is he looked out (knowing the window was open - not broken) picked her up held her outside the opening and dropped her (possible squirming?) IMO after viewing footage and talking to witnesses PR arrested him - he should have admitted his fault instead of all these stories - people may have been sympathetic even though his stupid behavior cost a baby’s life
JMO

Understandably the family believed GF and after the shock came anger against RC.
I believe the footage is in RC’s favour and that would’ve crushed the family.
Is that why GF was alone, allegedly in court?
 
I had a long post ready to go in response to the possible vision problem to explain his “not seeing the window” in the prior thread. But it closed before I hit send.

I’m not verified so, take this or leave it:
MOO he would have had to have a vitreous hemorrhage, retinal detachment, or an episode of amaurosis fugax to be significant enough for him to miss seeing the window.

however: if any of these things were a problem why hasn’t MW mentioned it?

Clinically significant cataract? When did he last drive? Work on a computer? Clinically significant cataract at that age is generally caused by trauma, smoking, prolonged exposure to the sun. (Farmers, particular those in southern states) and rare for his age and occupation

AMD: again not likely. (Age/gender)

more than anything; I believe if he had a medically valid reason for letting Chloe fall to her death: it would have we been announced long ago by MW. And it could all be validated medically.

ETA: maybe he had a TIA?

Edit to add: the color vision thing, I’m sure the prosecutor can find a group of equally color deficient people who would be able to pick out the open window under the same conditions... just saying

Its insulting; it’s like they are just throwing crap at the wall to see what will stick.

as it is: the only reason I see for him dropping Chloe: he was a negligent buffoon
 
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I think so as well - my guess is he looked out (knowing the window was open - not broken) picked her up held her outside the opening and dropped her (possible squirming?) IMO after viewing footage and talking to witnesses PR arrested him - he should have admitted his fault instead of all these stories - people may have been sympathetic even though his stupid behavior cost a baby’s life
JMO

Oviedo do you notice it’s because Chloe squirmed?

It’s just not his fault. Unbloodybelievable.
 
I am with Gitana1 and many others, he refused to take a breathe analyze test, so he must have something to hide , the video(s) will show what really happened. The family must be in denial after all this horror, but that doesn't change that granddad was responsible for Chloe at that moment . Poor little baby:(
 
Oviedo do you notice it’s because Chloe squirmed?

It’s just not his fault. Unbloodybelievable.

1125-en-cruisegrandfather-begnaud-1983966-640x360.jpg


Thanks to whoever posted this photo on the previous thread.

Grandpa clearly has no clue about how to hold a toddler! He has one hand around her lower legs with the rest of her body and head not held at all. If Chloe had been distracted, turned to look at someone/something, or squirmed, she would have fallen, and Grandpa would not have been able to prevent it. I wonder if this is how he was propping Chloe up to the open window?

Did no one in the family, especially Chloe's parents, not notice that Grandpa didn't know how to hold a child? He barely has a grip on her in this photo.
 
Oviedo do you notice it’s because Chloe squirmed?

It’s just not his fault. Unbloodybelievable.
yes, this is a story from very early on - it's her fault - I bet if she did squirm it was because he terrified her by holding her out the open window 11 stories up. OMG. As far as things in the past - I'm wondering if SA didn't play the "throw the baby up in the air" game - letting go and catching her? and maybe even someone did not like this game? JMO
 
Again, thanks everyone for helping me to sort things out. My logic was getting superposed by my emotions. As I said previously, I almost lost a gdaughter (also a toddler named Chloe) to imo doctor error. It's a tough road to forgive. I don't completely. My bad!
Nonetheless the facts that we believe to be true are these:
A) It's no coincidence that he just happened to be at the ONLY open window. Why? Because he wanted to look out.
THEREFORE, he knew there was no glass.
B) He was seen looking over and looking around.
THEREFORE, he knew there was no glass.
C) He had an unknown amount of alcohol since he refused the breathalyzer.
THEREFORE, a possible factor.
D) Putting her up on a ledge is unheard of. No one else has made that error.
THEREFORE, it is an unreasonable thing to do.
Bottom line: It's still hard to say how the case will go. Emotions will be all over the place. And Puerto Rico, I might add, might not have as much sympathy.
Prayers for the family nonetheless. They are going through pain and probably can't see clearly with denial going on. But they imo should throw out the law suit.
(I did watch an hr video of the biggest cruise ship to get a feel of the environment. Hated it I might add. I fear heighths).
 
yes, this is a story from very early on - it's her fault - I bet if she did squirm it was because he terrified her by holding her out the open window 11 stories up. OMG. As far as things in the past - I'm wondering if SA didn't play the "throw the baby up in the air" game - letting go and catching her? and maybe even someone did not like this game? JMO
There is that "act of games" phrase we've been discussing...
 
I don't remember ever hearing any explanation that she squirmed (maybe I missed it?) and she reminds me a lot of my daughter at that age, a really serene, happy child; I agree that if something like that happened it would have been at the last moment to attempt to hold on to her GF (that's just speculating on a possible part of this event). But I do remember some early accounts saying GF lost his balance. I also remember Winkleman saying "he let go of her" in one of his interviews. (Makes you wonder why in the world the civil suit guy would ever open his mouth about a criminal matter. SA may have had a criminal attorney from the start since he was being questioned. He was advised by his attorney not to give a statement.)

SA has held strictly to the mantra "I thought there was glass" and I don't think he even believes that. In his interview last week he was clearly trying to convince even himself and was not succeeding. He said, "I keep saying to myself 'I thought there was glass'." Then he repeats it 3 times, slapping his hand against his leg each time. He can't actually say those words straight out and look the interviewer in the eye. But he can say he's colorblind without a problem. "I'm colorblind, Dave."

Chloe's mother said during their interview shortly after it happened that this is what SA told them - that he thought there was glass. Their child died and that's what he told them so they trusted that he was being honest, but maybe what really happened is too horrible to admit and SA is clinging to his excuse.

He says in the interview that he first looked around for her on the floor (how disoriented do you have to be to not know where your baby has gone), but he also says he saw her fall "the whole way down." Then it's "just fix the boat" and "if only there had been a sign, I would never, ever have done that (paraphrased)."

There are so many tables and chairs up against those windows so there probably were other people around.

I don't blame the parents because the family was nearby. The first family member to arrive on the scene was her brother, followed by her mother. Never in a million years could they imagine that their child would be hoisted up to an open window and put in danger of falling out of the window. Last thing they knew, she was in the water area.
 
Oviedo do you notice it’s because Chloe squirmed?

It’s just not his fault. Unbloodybelievable.

To me, her squirming isn't much of a defense for SA. Whatever alleged vision problems SA has, Chloe doesn't appear to have vision problems and it was SA who both put her up there and who was pushing her forward (both things initially attributed to Chloe), which any squirming she did sounds like self-defense trying to not fall out the window. It's like if I try pushing you out a window then blame your fall on you trying to not fall out the window. I do hope we find out how malicious it was, not that I think he intentionally pushed her out the window, but I think he knew the window was open and may have been purposefully trying to scare her when she fell as the rocking back and forth seems like something you'd do if you're pretending you're going to drop someone then pull back each time. He seems to have lied to the family about some things, so who knows the extent of his lies.
 
...I don't blame the parents because the family was nearby. The first family member to arrive on the scene was her brother, followed by her mother. Never in a million years could they imagine that their child would be hoisted up to an open window and put in danger of falling out of the window. Last thing they knew, she was in the water area.

Excellent post. Respectfully <snipped> for focus.

I would only fault Chloe's parents if they knew that Grandpa had a couple of drinks and might not have been clear-headed enough to use good judgment in caring for his grandchild.
 
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