Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Itsapuzzle]

Today I'm thinking it's interesting that Marion chose to leave the country at a time when her old passport was about to expire .... could the timing of that have been planned way in advance to get that new name on it? As mentioned in some great previous posts here that it's peculiar that Marion was spending so much time in the Tunbridge Wells area .... a postcard was sent on 7 July from Tunbridge Wells .... then we have the phone call to Sally on 1 August from Tunbridge Wells where she's having a cup of tea ...... h'mm, I might be swinging back to Marion never returned to Australia, maybe someone in her place ..... oh boy, so many possibilities ............
Afterthought ... Do we know where the postcard that was postmarked 30 August 1997 was sent from? Was that also Tunbridge Wells?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

That and the Joseph Newton Chandler case are fascinating to me. I'm still amazed that they have been solved.

In 1997 it wasn't hard to get birth certificates, in my state anyway. A printed form from the post office filled with the name of the person, year of event, registration number, declare that it was for family history research purposes, and an official certificate would be sent. Many local libraries had a genealogy section which had cd-roms with indexes of births deaths and marriages. If a person did want to take on a new identity it would not be a difficult matter to use the death index to find someone who had died as a baby, then buy that person's birth certificate and use it for yourself. Impossible these days, you have to provide proof of who you are and why you want it.

Didn't Marion, or Florabella, give two different birth dates to bank officials? I heard or read that somewhere but can't remember where. My first thought was that she had given the birth date of a different person whose identity she was using. Finding a birth certificate from the year you were born would be no problem but getting the exact date of birth near impossible.

Completely interesting about the birth certificates, hadn't thought about this before ....

 

[Sophie-Renee]

In Europe, especially Catholic countries, many families will name a daughter after the virgin Mary. Variations on the name are Marie/Maria/Marina/Mia/Marianne and several more. Very traditional families will give all of the daughters the first name Marie but the girls will go by their second given name, Anne, Louise etc. Both my grandmothers were Marie, several aunts and cousins are also, with it either a first or middle name, many add it as a confirmation name as well.

That is a very good point. The problem is so many theories and possibilities and no way yet of actually having any hard evidence either way. Sometimes you see something and maybe read more into it than is really there. One thing I have mentioned before was the name "Remakel" although being seen as rare- it only is considering it with the assumption the man is from a European country. It seems bar Ferdinand extremely few Remakels exist and practically none besides him with the initial F. If there was a possibility he spoke French, but was actually from the US- then there are loads.

Remacle or Remackel seem to be a lot more common in Europe . Which is why I wondered if there has been a mis spelling of the name given at the time , by La Courier. Even then however, there seems to be barely anyone with the intial F as a first name. Oftentimes, F is appearing on people searches and through ancestry as a middle name initial. Has it been mostly accepted that the M is definitely for Monsieur? The Monsieur appears at the top of the ad, so we know from the start it is Mr. Would he neccessarily have put M for it at the end? Sometimes in letters and such in newspapers by readers, they don't bother putting Mr or Mrs. They may put their full name or initials and surname- depends on the person, I suppose. Like a signature - J. Doe for Jane or John Doe, would you neccessarily write Mr or Mrs? He may have signed the ad like this, but so as to keep some privacy not put the full names...anyone else think this is a possibility? Maybe just my musings..

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Just had a final thought to this..if "F. Remakel" is linked to Marion's disappearance- there can't have been a misprint because she herself would have rectified the misspelling in the name change. So I have kind of answered my own question- Remakel is likely the right spelling after all.

On another note- probably just another dead end but, there happens to be a short street called Florabella Street, in Warimoo just beyond Penrith outside of Sydney. I know this may be a fair distance from the Lennox Head area- it is not a long street and is home to Warimoo Public School. I don't know what that might mean other than she took the name from that street. But the fact the school is on that street and Marion is a teacher- did she have any connections out that way, worked there before? It is also just around the corner form the Hall of Jehovah's witnesses...who knows what that could mean either. I realise there are a great many Jehovah's witness halls in Australia, made me think this may be the faith or following of someone she was involved with.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Today I'm thinking it's interesting that Marion chose to leave the country at a time when her old passport was about to expire .... could the timing of that have been planned way in advance to get that new name on it? As mentioned in some great previous posts here that it's peculiar that Marion was spending so much time in the Tunbridge Wells area .... a postcard was sent on 7 July from Tunbridge Wells .... then we have the phone call to Sally on 1 August from Tunbridge Wells where she's having a cup of tea ...... h'mm, I might be swinging back to Marion never returned to Australia, maybe someone in her place ..... oh boy, so many possibilities ............

Are you thinking someone in her place that she authorized or unknown to her ?

she called Sally at approx. 7pm on the 1st of august (aus time) it would have been approx. 10am in the UK on the 1st of August. Flight times from London to Brisbane would have been 24 - 30hrs, by my calculation it would not be possible to arrive in Brisbane at 10am on the 2nd. She either was already on route, it wasn't her on the flight ( but she was alive if someone else took the flight), or the dates are all wrong.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

By Mel : "According to ancestry, there is a F Remakel who was born around 1951 (about 4 years out for the age in the ad) from Chicago. I think Francis. There is also a Francis Remacle who seems to be the correct age. Of Luxembourgish descent, it would seem.
Does anyone know- how did Brian confirm no one with the name Remakel had come in or out, besides Marion, since 1970? Is there a searchable database, or is that info that has come from Garry Sheehan?"

So sorry as I seem to have no Quote button for older posts!

I also came across this F. Remakel. He does appear to be a similar age. I think I found d.o.b 28/11/1951..so would have been 43 at time the ad was written. Who knows, I suppose many people might age themselves up, as much as those who like to knock a few years off their age..may have had his reasons. This Remacle from Luxembourg (possibly), is interesting. What has puzzled me over the Luxembourg connection is majority of Remakels in Europe actually spell it "Remackel" or "Remacle" and yet Marion did indeed change her name to "Remakel" which is more consistent with the US version.

There is also (possible relation to F. Remakel born 1951 in Illinois) a Frances M Remakel (female) , whose obituary in Cook County, Illinois is in June 1994. Only 6 months before the ad was placed with La Courier. It is a rare name, on a worldwide scale. Perhaps, at the time her obituary appeared in the paper, someone remembered it being a rather interesting name. Or maybe, someone who knew her or was even related to her didn't think twice about then using her intials to post a personals ad. That theory of using the identity of someone who has passed on, even if it was just to place the ad. Not a nice thought, but one of the many many possibilities.

 

[KiwiNZ]

part of reason I come back to the person whom posted the ad been of European ethnicity is the reference to multiple languages which is very common in Europe and usually indicates someone whom comes from a country that is surrounded by many countries that speak different languages.

 

[Mel 1303]

Keep in mind, we don't really have any idea how much time Marion spent in Tunbridge Wells. Only what Marion was saying. The phone call to Sally could have been on a stop over on the way home- or from a pay phone around the corner. The last postcard was sent on the 30th- after the passport came back into the country on the 2nd. If it was someone else, using Marion's passport, and Marion was none the wiser in England, I would be very surprised that she hadn't noticed that she lost her passport all but a month beforehand. And then what happened? She just disappeared in England? It seems far more logical and likely that Marion asked someone to send the card on her behalf, giving her a bit more breathing time before anyone started questioning where she was.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Keep in mind, we don't really have any idea how much time Marion spent in Tunbridge Wells. Only what Marion was saying. The phone call to Sally could have been on a stop over on the way home- or from a pay phone around the corner. The last postcard was sent on the 30th- after the passport came back into the country on the 2nd. If it was someone else, using Marion's passport, and Marion was none the wiser in England, I would be very surprised that she hadn't noticed that she lost her passport all but a month beforehand. And then what happened? She just disappeared in England? It seems far more logical and likely that Marion asked someone to send the card on her behalf, giving her a bit more breathing time before anyone started questioning where she was.

Hi Mel, I cant find a reference to the postcard been post dated the 30th can you point me the direction of this information please.

I think it was Marion on that flight, calling from a stop over, I can't think of another scenario that works.

If someone did post the post card after her return it could have been whom ever she had left with, she came back to transferred money and then the person followed later.

 

[Mel 1303]

Hi Mel, I cant find a reference to the postcard been post dated the 30th can you point me the direction of this information please.

I think it was Marion on that flight, calling from a stop over, I can't think of another scenario that works.

If someone did post the post card after her return it could have been whom ever she had left with, she came back to transferred money and then the person followed later.

Episode 4, 6:13 Last card posted from Tunbridge England was dated 30 August 1997
This was from Marion's fathers notes, sent to the Salvation Army family tracing service.
Stop over is the only thing that works for me, too.
The person she left the card with could have been in on the plan, but could also be oblivious. She could have said something like "I will be on the orient express, but I'd really like my sister (whoever got the card) to get this on her birthday. Could you pop it in the post on the 30th please?"

 

[KiwiNZ]

thanks have listen and they do say the 30th of August but on the their timeline its not mentioned - I have asked on the FB page to clarify, its probably already been addressed but I have asked again.

June 30: Marion sends Sally a letter postmarked Tunbridge Wells, Kent, England.

July: Sally receives two postcards from Marion, postmarked Sussex Coast and London.

July 7: Date on a postcard sent to Marion’s elderly relative from Brighton, Sussex.

 

[Mel 1303]

I'm digging myself into a rabbit hole on ancestry. Anyone got access to a different genealogy site?

 

[thunderwombat]

I'm digging myself into a rabbit hole on ancestry. Anyone got access to a different genealogy site?

I've got a Geneanet sub, modern day Remakels are mostly in USA. I tried findmypast before my sub ran out, nothing of interest, no Lux records. Same with familysearch & newspapers.com, mostly USA. The only F R that fits are the ones mentioned by Sophie-Renee above. I'll give the National Library newspaper resource another go.

I've almost come to the conclusion, to use an appropriate Alfred Hitchcock-ism, that the Remakel surname is the Macguffin of the whole mystery. It's too close to "remake" to be a coincidence for my liking. But then what would I know I guess.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Sally thinks Marion may have used Kent removals (based on the truck) but doesnt remember the packing boxes.

Have been poking around in Trove looking at the Kent Moving & Storage website from wayback (was looking to see if they had any terms and conditions for uncollected goods) - found that if you're planning to move the goods in the shipping container overseas you need to fill in what's called a B534 Form, titled "UNACCOMPANIED PERSONAL EFFECTS STATEMENT Please complete the following details Given names Family name Address and telephone number of intended or actual Australian residential address Date of birth Sex Passport number Country of issue Male Female • This is a legally binding document and may be used as evidence." So was thinking if customs have a record of this form being filled in by Marion/or Kent, then that'll tell us if Marion shipped her goods overseas. End of spontaneous Kent thoughts. Will catch up on reading all the posts now.

 

[Mel 1303]

That is a very good point. The problem is so many theories and possibilities and no way yet of actually having any hard evidence either way. Sometimes you see something and maybe read more into it than is really there. One thing I have mentioned before was the name "Remakel" although being seen as rare- it only is considering it with the assumption the man is from a European country. It seems bar Ferdinand extremely few Remakels exist and practically none besides him with the initial F. If there was a possibility he spoke French, but was actually from the US- then there are loads.

Remacle or Remackel seem to be a lot more common in Europe . Which is why I wondered if there has been a mis spelling of the name given at the time , by La Courier. Even then however, there seems to be barely anyone with the intial F as a first name. Oftentimes, F is appearing on people searches and through ancestry as a middle name initial. Has it been mostly accepted that the M is definitely for Monsieur? The Monsieur appears at the top of the ad, so we know from the start it is Mr. Would he neccessarily have put M for it at the end? Sometimes in letters and such in newspapers by readers, they don't bother putting Mr or Mrs. They may put their full name or initials and surname- depends on the person, I suppose. Like a signature - J. Doe for Jane or John Doe, would you neccessarily write Mr or Mrs? He may have signed the ad like this, but so as to keep some privacy not put the full names...anyone else think this is a possibility? Maybe just my musings..

Or if Marion did have a connection with someone called Remakel, but she got the spelling wrong. Connection to a Remakel, or any of the other spellings, from Luxembourg and the error was hers.

 

[Mel 1303]

Have been poking around in Trove looking at the Kent Moving & Storage website from wayback (was looking to see if they had any terms and conditions for uncollected goods) - found that if you're planning to move the goods in the shipping container overseas you need to fill in what's called a B534 Form, titled "UNACCOMPANIED PERSONAL EFFECTS STATEMENT Please complete the following details Given names Family name Address and telephone number of intended or actual Australian residential address Date of birth Sex Passport number Country of issue Male Female • This is a legally binding document and may be used as evidence." So was thinking if customs have a record of this form being filled in by Marion/or Kent, then that'll tell us if Marion shipped her goods overseas. End of spontaneous Kent thoughts. Will catch up on reading all the posts now.

If Kent was the removalist, I would put money on them being the owner of the shipping container. If they didn't ship overseas, they would still know where they shipped to.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I've got a Geneanet sub, modern day Remakels are mostly in USA. I tried findmypast before my sub ran out, nothing of interest, no Lux records. Same with familysearch & newspapers.com, mostly USA. The only F R that fits are the ones mentioned by Sophie-Renee above. I'll give the National Library newspaper resource another go.

I've almost come to the conclusion, to use an appropriate Alfred Hitchcock-ism, that the Remakel surname is the Macguffin of the whole mystery. It's too close to "remake" to be a coincidence for my liking. But then what would I know I guess.

I would have given up on the Remakel advert link long ago but the reentry card with Luxemburg on had me coming back to it …. I don't think Fernand did anything sinister. But why put Luxembourg instead of the UK on the reentry card ?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I would have given up on the Remakel advert link long ago but the reentry card with Luxemburg on had me coming back to it …. I don't think Fernand did anything sinister. But why put Luxembourg instead of the UK on the reentry card ?

Yes, but when you think about it just about everything on the card was false .... Luxembourg housewife/false, 3 day visa/false, hotel accommodation listed/false ......
But yes, the ad is now super interesting now we know no Remakels were in the country - well, allegedly - so why the Lennox Head PO Box and Ballina phone number ... that in itself has become a big mystery, and maybe just a mystery within this mystery, but there it is. Wish tomorrow's headline in the newspaper was "Has anyone ever met anyone named Remakel in Australia .... ever?"

 

[KiwiNZ]

Yes, but when you think about it just about everything on the card was false .... Luxembourg housewife/false, 3 day visa/false, hotel accommodation listed/false ......
But yes, the ad is now super interesting now we know no Remakels were in the country - well, allegedly - so why the Lennox Head PO Box and Ballina phone number ... that in itself has become a big mystery, and maybe just a mystery within this mystery, but there it is. Wish tomorrow's headline in the newspaper was "Has anyone ever met anyone named Remakel in Australia .... ever?"

yes true all false, but she could have saved me a headache and pick another country, I can't sleep lol …

I agree can we all chip in and take a full page in the newspaper lol

 

[Sophie-Renee]

A big problem is also we don't have any proof that the Remakel on the ad is linked to Marion's name change or if it just a big coincidence.

There is a sizeable gap in time between December 1994 and the name change in 1997. In the 2 previous years did she not speak more about the pilot and I think another man who was a parent from TSS.

But the fact that the Remakel name doesn't appear to have been present in Australia, is also odd. It leads if nothing else to the ad possibly being a 1990s version of a catfish or for whatever reason the ad being placed by someone on their behalf, who did live in Australia even though the man lived elsewhere. But.. If u were being genuine why not put that in the ad? "french, Luxembourgish or whatever.. Male seeks Australian female to connect with with a view of...." why if nothing else waste your own time by not mentioning you lived abroad and wished to connect with someone that was willing to travel or have a long distance relationship?

Either way it would be useful to know what sort of places Marion had visited alone. Do we know she had done solo travel before? I don't recall it having been mentioned. If so, where to? Anywhere she had travelled whether alone or with someone in 1995 or 1996 seems vital. Too many questions...