Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #118

[Blue Amethyst]

Many thanks to those who keep this thread going. Though I may not post a lot I do read all the time like many others. It would be wonderful if we had some new information by Christmas.

 

[stattlich1]

That comment does not say 'We have DNA." But rather he alludes to the fact that DNA is often found. This quote above is from August 2017.

The interview from the subsequent 2018 CrimeCon, 1st Sgt Holeman states at about 16:30 in the interview that they 'will not deny nor confirm that they have DNA.'
NEWS – Abby and Libby.org

Uhm, he states clearly they are working on identifying "all the DNA that they have".

It does indeed state clearly that they have DNA.

carry on.

 

[Peppery]

Of course they have DNA. Libby’s, Abby’s, their family members, hairs on their clothes from family, friends, a friend who sat in Kelsi’s car, any cigarette butts or other trash in the area, animal droppings, animal hairs, searchers hair, possibly searchers touch DNA, etc. lots of DNA to test, difficult to know if any of it is BG’s. Of the DNA testing they’ve done, I suspect an overwhelming amount of that was matching it up to known/expected samples.

 

[Peppery]

I have always thought Liberty’s iPhone got dropped or was thrown by her in a struggle and he couldn’t find it. He wouldn’t have had a lot of time to hunt for it before having to get out of there. You would imagine he would have dumped the iPhone in the water, tried to destroy it or try to bury it somewhere at least if he had known he had been recorded on it.

One thing I remember from the time is that the newest version of the 2017 iPhone had a water resistant feature. And that if it was thrown in the creek or partially wet, it wouldn’t necessarily be destroyed. We have video of searcher wading thru the creek on 2/14/17, I've always thought they were looking for her phone and a possible weapon (I believe a knife)

Has it been confirmed libby had an iPhone and which model it was?

 

[Ozoner]

Uhm, he states clearly they are working on identifying "all the DNA that they have".

It does indeed state clearly that they have DNA.

carry on.

I'm glad we have your permission to carry on.
-
LE undoubtedly has numerous samples of bodily fluids from the victims. They likely tested every sample in hopes of finding DNA that didn't belong to the victims. They have never said that they have DNA that belongs to anyone but the victims. Therefore, their statement that they have DNA is meaningless.

 

[gregjrichards]

One thing I remember from the time is that the newest version of the 2017 iPhone had a water resistant feature. And that if it was thrown in the creek or partially wet, it wouldn’t necessarily be destroyed. We have video of searcher wading thru the creek on 2/14/17, I've always thought they were looking for her phone and a possible weapon (I believe a knife)

Has it been confirmed libby had an iPhone and which model it was?

There is a photograph of Liberty holding an iPhone 7 at a softball game I know it is an iPhone 7 from the camera at the back. I don’t know if that is her own phone and the one she had with her that day. It was the first iPhone that was splash resistant and could be kept in under three feet of water for 30 minutes.

I don’t know if law enforcement or Liberty’s Sister Kelsi have confirmed the phone model Liberty had with her that day.

 

[Torch Carrier]

I think the killer brought something with him to contaminate or eradicate evidence at the scene before he left. I don't want to discuss what but I don't think it was someone else's DNA. That's JMO

Could the white loopy thing sticking up from beneath BG'S clothing be some kind of hand action pump and tubing used to spray the scene with some chemical that might eradicate DNA or make it harder to identify? I know, sounds pretty far fetched, just trying to think outside the box here...

 

[Torch Carrier]

I do think it is possible it was the north side of the creek, but unlikely. MOO forcing the girls back across would have taken a lot of time. The police have stated the crime started immediately after the video snippet on the bridge.
They also stated that by the time BG said: "down the hill" he was getting frustrated with them, MOO for not complying.
By 3:11 Libby's phone was not being responded to, although it rang through, though immediately after on the second call it went to voice mail.
MOO, in my experience with an iPhone that would mean someone touched the screen and ignored the call.

So the gap between the clear bridge picture of BG on the bridge, for which the time stamp has not been released and the time of the recording of the voice for "Down the hill." and the phone not answering at 3:11 is going to be less than an hour. The Police have said the crime was very quick.

MOO the video and the voice recording are the same file.
MOO Liberty filmed him and hid the phone running. I think the phone stopped recording because got jostled on the way down the hill, or just timed out somewhere after "Down the Hill."
I think the ringing of the phone prompted the killer to find the phone, and to leave.

Could it be they filmed BG approaching bcuz he said or did something weird, but after that pic was taken BG went off of the bridge (either end) and waited for the girls, hidden, so when they were stepping off the original end (where they had first stepped on) he intercepted them, gained control, commanded "down the hill" right then or somewhere enroute to crime scene... ? No one would cross creek in this scenario. Just thoughts, brainstorming.

 

[Torch Carrier]

Things I def remember from waaaaaay back, but sadly have no links for... perhaps others may recall as well-

RL blurting out in an interview those very earliest days something about (paraphrasing)
*I just thought they were just kids getting into a car, as kids do...*

LE saying (paraphrased) *At first approach we didn't realize it was the/a crime scene* (which lead ME to then ponder hanging, the need to look up...)

A searcher saying he spotted two deer then looked up to see the girls (again, up... ???) I don't believe Abby's Mom got the whole story, saying recently she heard they were found side by side. I don't take that to be necessarily true, she may have been misinformed...)

And finally, talk of other kids (boys?) sleeping over somewhere too that fateful wkend... maybe some watched or were by some other means aware as the girls drove off... and decided to follow? Maybe someone was following location of Libby's phone? (I do find it odd her phone was acting up just a day or so before... I think somebody messed with it, trying to erase evidence of perhaps having messed with HER. It happens to many, too many girls.

Again no links, things I recall reading, unsure just where and how reliable ...

 

[PaulaDC]

I’ve become convinced (for the time being ) that BG did NOT know he had been recorded, heard Libby’s cell phone ringing when DG first called, then silenced it and left it where it was because he knew time was up and he had to get out of Dodge. I think BG purposefully left Libby’s cell phone because he understood how tracking works. He knew he shouldn’t take it with him and he flat out didn’t have time to destroy it (throw in water, etc). Thinking what’s the harm of leaving it if he didn’t think there was any incriminating evidence on it.

I do think it’s possible he was still trying to leave the scene (clean up, place things the way he wanted it perhaps, etc) when DG had already entered the trails starting to look for the girls.


MOO.

I wonder if he realized the phone was present and made Libby toss it into the water which enraged him more hence the rumors of her being abused more? Moo

 

[PaulaDC]

Picture 5 in this story's slide show has Leazenby looking at a route up from the creek. MOO I see a shoe print in the mud.
The path is sideways up the bank reducing steepness, and it looks not too difficult.
Although it probably was difficult enough to slow them down and get caught.
I think they were trying to get to CR 300 for help.

UPDATED: Foul play suspected after bodies found along Deer Creek in Delphi; vigil held

So I see the photographer with the controversial sighting of clothing in the creek is the same photographer that took photo 5. I guess that clinched it for all the non believers that couldn't envision how he was able to see said clothing. Moo

 

[Boxer]

Could it be they filmed BG approaching bcuz he said or did something weird, but after that pic was taken BG went off of the bridge (either end) and waited for the girls, hidden, so when they were stepping off the original end (where they had first stepped on) he intercepted them, gained control, commanded "down the hill" right then or somewhere enroute to crime scene... ? No one would cross creek in this scenario. Just thoughts, brainstorming.

Yes MOO that's plausible. I wonder if anyone saw photos of police tape from the north end of the bridge to the CS.

 

[MJPeony]

I wonder if he realized the phone was present and made Libby toss it into the water which enraged him more hence the rumors of her being abused more? Moo

Yes, I suppose it’s possible. I personally am not sold on the idea that the phone was in the water. I think there are lots of reasons people could have been looking in the water- clothes, hats, sunglasses, weapons, anything really.

But if BG did suddenly discover Libby had been recording him, that would be bad news I think. And throwing it in the water would be one way he could try to get rid of it without taking it with him.

DG calling Libby at 3:11 and her phone ringing, but then not ringing when he called her again makes me think BG just powered it down as soon as he realized someone was trying to reach her. Maybe he threw it in the water, but maybe he just powered it down and took off.

MOO.

 

[katydid23]

Delphi property owner: "I can't comprehend it"

When they said the two girls were missing I never thought the worst," said (name removed by me)"I just figured well they got into the car and got with someone else like teenagers do."

Not sure what to make of this statement.
It does involve a car.

I think he had kids himself, which are now grown. There are statements from men that grew up on that land, saying they used to party with friends, down at the creek growing up.
So I assumed he was talking about his own teens in the past---when they 'go missing' and you find out they ran off with their friends when you were not home watching. Kind of normal teen behaviour...annoying as it is.

 

[Yemelyan]

I can't figure out how the crime scene was "gruesome" with no DNA left? Seems like any struggle or hands on stuff: SA, strangling, drowning, even using a knife would leave more touch DNA than just some on a shoulder. Only thing that comes to mind is if they were shot/not touched. MOO

I have the same thoughts you do about the lack of DNA (if that turns out to be true). However, IMO they were probably not shot and I'll tell you why I think that. There is a radio show called "the Indiana State Police Road Show" which is hosted by an ISP trooper and you can also watch it on youtube. Normally it has public safety info and the like but both Supt. Carter and ISP Chief Information Officer Dave Bursten have been on the show (at different times) to discuss the Delphi murders. When Dave Bursten was on, the host asked him why more info about the cause of death was not released and he gave a spiel about how that helps the winnow out useless tips. If I recall correctly he said (I'm paraphrasing here) "if someone says 'I know who did this because they confessed to me,' then we ask them if they know how the they were killed. And if they say..." (here he paused as if trying to decide on an example) "'he said he shot them two times in the back', then now we know the tip isn't a good one because that doesn't match the actual cause of death." So JMO but he clearly chose his words in this example and I doubt he would brought up a gun if one was actually used to kill them.

Edit to add: I do think a gun could have been used to menace them/make them comply. I just think it wasn't used to kill them. I think he desired a different method for that.

 

[margarita25]

I wonder if he realized the phone was present and made Libby toss it into the water which enraged him more hence the rumors of her being abused more? Moo

I noticed something in the timeline which made me wonder about this, marking.

 

[Thelastleg]

Picture 5 in this story's slide show has Leazenby looking at a route up from the creek. MOO I see a shoe print in the mud.
The path is sideways up the bank reducing steepness, and it looks not too difficult.
Although it probably was difficult enough to slow them down and get caught.
I think they were trying to get to CR 300 for help.

UPDATED: Foul play suspected after bodies found along Deer Creek in Delphi; vigil held

Would it be possible to attach the photo. I'm outside USA and get denied access to the link. Thanks

 

[tresir2012]

It definitely sounds like they're equivocating. Personally, I think that if they had the perp's DNA, then they'd state flat out, "We have the perp's DNA." I don't think they have BG's DNA.

I don't think they know if they have BG's DNA as they have not got a match yet.

 

[tresir2012]

I'm glad we have your permission to carry on.
-
LE undoubtedly has numerous samples of bodily fluids from the victims. They likely tested every sample in hopes of finding DNA that didn't belong to the victims. They have never said that they have DNA that belongs to anyone but the victims. Therefore, their statement that they have DNA is meaningless.

I think they did infer they have DNA other than the victims by mentioning touch DNA. Holeman said there is always touch DNA at a scene.

 

[Ozoner]

I think they did infer they have DNA other than the victims by mentioning touch DNA. Holeman said there is always touch DNA at a scene.

LE would have found touch DNA from the girls anywhere the girls touched their own or each other's clothing or belongings. LE would have to test every sample to see whether it belonged to the girls or to someone else. They might not have found anyone else's DNA.