IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #3

[lonetraveler]

BBM Most of her body would have had to be outside the window, it's a matter of plain physics. Just over half, probably. WHY was she so far out that window if it was an accident? I just can't see it. MOO

Exactly what I'm trying to say. She would have had to be mostly outside of the window for her body weight to fall out of the window. There is no physical way she could fall out of the window sitting on the railing. IMO.

 

[MsMarple]

I dunno... the more I think about it the more ridiculous it all is. There should be a sign or warning that the windows open? That they might be open?

"Caution! Window Might be Open!"
"Caution! Windows are Able to be Opened. Please Check Accordingly."
"Caution! Check that Window is Closed Before Setting Toddler on Safety Rail!"

And suggesting a sticker with the RCCL logo placed on the glass might not be enough. What if SA's color blindness prevents him from seeing/not seeing it? What if he can see it/not see it but someone else with color blindness can't? What if SA just plain didn't notice the absence of a sticker, kind of like how he didn't notice the frikkin' window was open?

Lawyer/family hasn't mentioned the value of a sticker on the railing warning not to place a toddler on it. Don't know why.

 

[CocoChanel]

MOD NOTE:

THIS THREAD HAS SERIOUSLY VEERED OFF COURSE INTO UNSUBSTANTIATED SPECULATIONS THAT ARE NOT BASED ON FACTS THAT HAVE PUBLISHED IN MSM OR BY LE. ACCUSATIONS ABOUT DELIBERATE WRONGDOING BY THIS FAMILY ARE VIOLATIONS OF WEBSLEUTHS TERMS OF SERVICE AND WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. THIS THREAD IS CLOSED UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE FOR CLEANUP.

Faithfully,
CocoChanel
Moderator

 

[CocoChanel]

The following is a refresher on how to keep this thread open for discussion.

It is a VIOLATION of TOS to engage in any of the following:

• profanity, even if you attempt to disguise it with *@#$&.
• sleuthing/bashing/accusing family members other than the one person who is charged in this case.
• speculating about anything that is not based in facts as stated by LE and/or published in MSM
• quoting posts that violate TOS, as that perpetuates the violations.
• discussing if/why your posts were removed.
• discussing yours or any other comments that were sent to other publications.

The ONLY person whose motives/history/competency/background may be discussed is the one who is charged. STOP BASHING THE REST OF THE FAMILY.

In discussing lawsuits, you may address your opinion of the merits of lawsuit itself, but not your opinion of the family as they are not accused of any crime. Again, you should focus your comments to the one person who is accused.


Thank you for your efforts to be responsible and respectful members of Websleuths by adhering to the high standards of the TOS.

This thread is now open. Please do your best to keep it that way.


Faithfully,
CocoChanel
Moderator
Websleuths

 

[katydid23]

Mom of Toddler Who Fell to Death From Cruise Ship: 'This is Too Much for All of Us'

The “singular goal” of the lawsuit against Royal Caribbean “is to raise awareness about window falls and trying to prevent this from happening to another child ever again,” Winkleman said at the news conference, according to the Tribune.

“Just four simple words, ‘Caution: These windows open,’ would have alerted Sam to the danger,” he said. “Chloe would still be here today.”


The cruise line said in a statement issued to PEOPLE Wednesday: “Our hearts go out to the family for their tragic loss. Mr. Salvatore Anello is currently being criminally prosecuted for negligent homicide in the case. We have no comment on the civil filing.”

The suit does not make a specific claim to damages.

 

[katydid23]

Mom of Toddler Who Fell to Death From Cruise Ship: 'This is Too Much for All of Us'

The “singular goal” of the lawsuit against Royal Caribbean “is to raise awareness about window falls and trying to prevent this from happening to another child ever again,” Winkleman said at the news conference, according to the Tribune.

“Just four simple words, ‘Caution: These windows open,’ would have alerted Sam to the danger,” he said. “Chloe would still be here today.”


The cruise line said in a statement issued to PEOPLE Wednesday: “Our hearts go out to the family for their tragic loss. Mr. Salvatore Anello is currently being criminally prosecuted for negligent homicide in the case. We have no comment on the civil filing.”

The suit does not make a specific claim to damages.

So their brilliant idea to 'save' all of the children who have previously fallen out of upper deck windows. ---[ which are zero besides their child]----is to put stickers on every single window, hundreds of them---saying 'this window opens.' ..... So when you look at the 'wall of windows' you will see 188 stickers saying the window can open?

Did grandpa not know that windows can be open?

 

[katydid23]

Mom of Toddler Who Fell to Death From Cruise Ship: 'This is Too Much for All of Us'

The “singular goal” of the lawsuit against Royal Caribbean “is to raise awareness about window falls and trying to prevent this from happening to another child ever again,” Winkleman said at the news conference, according to the Tribune.

“Just four simple words, ‘Caution: These windows open,’ would have alerted Sam to the danger,” he said. “Chloe would still be here today.”


The cruise line said in a statement issued to PEOPLE Wednesday: “Our hearts go out to the family for their tragic loss. Mr. Salvatore Anello is currently being criminally prosecuted for negligent homicide in the case. We have no comment on the civil filing.”

The suit does not make a specific claim to damages.

Looking at this again is getting my blood boiling. Look at the attorneys wording:

“is to raise awareness about window falls....."


Window Falls? What the heck are window falls?

IS that when an adult lifts a child up beyond a safety barrier, 11 stories up, and leans against her as he leans out to get a better view, dropping her to the pavement below?

WINDOW FALLS sounds like someone falling from a window because of their own follies.

 

[SouthAussie]

I think that Royal Caribbean are conducting themselves with class and dignity.

“Our hearts go out to the family for their tragic loss. Mr. Salvatore Anello is currently being criminally prosecuted for negligent homicide in the case. We have no comment on the civil filing.”
Mom of Toddler Who Fell to Death From Cruise Ship: 'This is Too Much for All of Us'

 

[SouthAussie]

Looking at this again is getting my blood boiling. Look at the attorneys wording:

“is to raise awareness about window falls....."


Window Falls? What the heck are window falls?

IS that when an adult lifts a child up beyond a safety barrier, 11 stories up, and leans against her as he leans out to get a better view, dropping her to the pavement below?

WINDOW FALLS sounds like someone falling from a window because of their own follies.

This article about 'window falls' (in the home) certainly suggests that adults can use preventative methods and common sense to avoid window falls in their own homes.

When applying the relevant ones to this case:


"Every year, about eight children under the age of five die from injuries sustained from falling out a window.

- When opening a window for ventilation, use those located out of a child’s reach. For example, the upper sash of a double-hung window. (RCCL - yes)
- Don’t rely on insect screens to prevent a window fall. Insect screens are designed to keep bugs out, not to keep children in. Screens are not safety devices. (RCCL - yes)
- Avoid placing furniture near windows to prevent young children from climbing. (RCCL - yes)
- Supervise children and train them to not play near windows, balconies or patio doors. (SA - no)"

Window Safety 101: Preventing Window Falls | Glass.com

 

[neesaki]

So their brilliant idea to 'save' all of the children who have previously fallen out of upper deck windows. ---[ which are zero besides their child]----is to put stickers on every single window, hundreds of them---saying 'this window opens.' ..... So when you look at the 'wall of windows' you will see 188 stickers saying the window can open?

Did grandpa not know that windows can be open?

Even if he didn’t know beforehand that the windows opened, it is a bit hard to believe he didn’t see the window was open after he peered out of it before lifting Chloe up.

I have to admit that I have a hard time believing he didn’t know it was open. IF he didn’t know, I have serious questions as to why he didn’t know, as in, was he under the influence. JMO

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Mom of Toddler Who Fell to Death From Cruise Ship: 'This is Too Much for All of Us'

The “singular goal” of the lawsuit against Royal Caribbean “is to raise awareness about window falls and trying to prevent this from happening to another child ever again,” Winkleman said at the news conference, according to the Tribune.

“Just four simple words, ‘Caution: These windows open,’ would have alerted Sam to the danger,” he said. “Chloe would still be here today.”


The cruise line said in a statement issued to PEOPLE Wednesday: “Our hearts go out to the family for their tragic loss. Mr. Salvatore Anello is currently being criminally prosecuted for negligent homicide in the case. We have no comment on the civil filing.”

The suit does not make a specific claim to damages.

Mom of Toddler Who Fell to Death From Cruise Ship: 'This is Too Much for All of Us' "Her husband, Alan Wiegand, told Today: “We expected it to be safe. That was never even in our minds.” Pardon my confusion, but I don't understand what wasn't "safe". In my own personal little opinion, the only thing that wasn't "safe" was SA. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants - Wikipedia

This reminds me of the "McDonald's Hot Coffee Lawsuit", which many people thought was frivolous. The plaintiff was awarded $640,000 by the judge. The original jury decision allowed 2.7 million dollars, which was reduced by the judge.

Which is why, there are so many warnings at McDonald's, about "Hot Coffee". People thought it was "frivolous", but it did result in improvements in warnings about the "hot coffee".

It’s not hot. It’s SCALDING.

 

[mickey2942]

"Winkleman instead argued the grandfather, Salvatore Anello, had placed the child on a railing, and not noticing the pane of glass in the “wall of windows” which was pulled back, Chloe fell through a “hidden” gaping hole."

Why would anyone "place a child on a railing"? BBM.

Oh, to "bang on glass", of course! Doh!

 

[GoneGoldfishin']

So their brilliant idea to 'save' all of the children who have previously fallen out of upper deck windows. ---[ which are zero besides their child]----is to put stickers on every single window, hundreds of them---saying 'this window opens.' ..... So when you look at the 'wall of windows' you will see 188 stickers saying the window can open?

Did grandpa not know that windows can be open?

Also, in what language are these warning stickers supposed to be?
It would have to be a universal symbol of understanding that danger of falls might be present..I dont know, kind of like this?

 

[Chikkamma]

Grandfather's story is bothering me. Chloe was supposedly sitting on the railing. A railing located 18" from the window opening. If she is of average height of 31.8 inches for an 18 month old female toddler then how could she go out of the window. Just say that her legs are around 10" long, that leaves 21.8 " of her body, from her butt to the top of her head leaning forward from the sitting position toward the window opening 18" away. That would have put only 3.8 inches of her head out of the window, ie., not enough to make her fall out of the window. This just proves to me that the original story that came out of him holding her outside of the window is most likely the correct story. IMO
18-Month-Old Development Milestones: Toddler Month by Month

Yes. This is the point I was trying to make in an earlier post, but you articulated it much better than I did.

Unless she did a flying leap forward, I believe some part of her body must have been held past the window pane before she was let go in order for her to have fallen OUTSIDE of the window (vs. having fallen into the 18 inch gap between railing and window). IMO

 

[MsMarple]

Also, in what language are these warning stickers supposed to be?
It would have to be a universal symbol of understanding that danger of falls might be present..I dont know, kind of like this?

Good point! People from many countries cruise so how many languages would be appropriate? Ugh.

IMO it just points out how useless the lawyer's suggestions are. Realistically the only solution is either permanently closing the windows or installing stoppers that limit the opening to 4". Apparently those stoppers have a mechanism that allows the window to open wider in case of emergency but could that mean a passenger might override the stopper?

But in any case it appears that the current window setup must be within regulations so once again the ship isn't failing to comply with industry standards - at least we've not heard from anyone about that except from the lawyer. And if that is the case then why wouldn't any reporter mention it by now?

The only real solution is for caretakers to do their job and safely supervise their charges while on board, including following ship policy regarding railings. So simple, huh?

 

[katydid23]

Good point! People from many countries cruise so how many languages would be appropriate? Ugh.

IMO it just points out how useless the lawyer's suggestions are. Realistically the only solution is either permanently closing the windows or installing stoppers that limit the opening to 4". Apparently those stoppers have a mechanism that allows the window to open wider in case of emergency but could that mean a passenger might override the stopper?

But in any case it appears that the current window setup must be within regulations so once again the ship isn't failing to comply with industry standards - at least we've not heard from anyone about that except from the lawyer. And if that is the case then why wouldn't any reporter mention it by now?

The only real solution is for caretakers to do their job and safely supervise their charges while on board, including following ship policy regarding railings. So simple, huh?

That 'emergency ' question is important. What if the ship is going down, or listing, or on fire?

What if people needed to escape through the windows?

 

[Midwestmom2019]

That 'emergency ' question is important. What if the ship is going down, or listing, or on fire?

What if people needed to escape through the windows?

Winkleman is doing a great job of confusing everyone.
There is nothing wrong with the window. It’s up high. It moves along tracks. It’s colored glass. It’s set back by a railing.
It works just like it’s supposed to work.
It took human intervention to cause her death. The window had nothing to do with it. Poor window. Victim bashing. It’s not the window’s fault!

 

[Safeguard]

The only real solution is for caretakers to do their job and safely supervise their charges while on board, including following ship policy regarding railings. So simple, huh?

Winkleman is doing a great job of confusing everyone.
There is nothing wrong with the window. It’s up high. It moves along tracks. It’s colored glass. It’s set back by a railing.
Just like it’s supposed to work.

Exactly. As we walk through life, we have a responsibility to take caution, be aware of our surroundings. We are not owed big giant warning signs!

 

[neesaki]

Mom of Toddler Who Fell to Death From Cruise Ship: 'This is Too Much for All of Us' "Her husband, Alan Wiegand, told Today: “We expected it to be safe. That was never even in our minds.” Pardon my confusion, but I don't understand what wasn't "safe". In my own personal little opinion, the only thing that wasn't "safe" was SA. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Wow, this is painful to read and absorb. The depth of their denial is difficult to understand, but at the same time very heart breaking considering their grief and pain. I wish there was something good to say about this situation, but I can’t think of a thing.