IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #3

[Gardenista]

Exactly. As we walk through life, we have a responsibility to take caution, be aware of our surroundings. We are not owed big giant warning signs!

And I think they need to start allowing windows which can be opened on high rise buildings. Makes me mad that I can't enjoy the fresh air.

 

[LietKynes]

Mom of Toddler Who Fell to Death From Cruise Ship: 'This is Too Much for All of Us' "Her husband, Alan Wiegand, told Today: “We expected it to be safe. That was never even in our minds.” Pardon my confusion, but I don't understand what wasn't "safe". In my own personal little opinion, the only thing that wasn't "safe" was SA. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Denial 'ain't just a river in Egypt.

 

[SouthAussie]

And I think they need to start allowing windows which can be opened on high rise buildings. Makes me mad that I can't enjoy the fresh air.

You need to stay in ones that have balconies. When I first discovered that some multi-level hotels have sealed plate-glass windows, I started staying in ones that have balconies.
I find the windows that are above waist height and smaller in hotels/motels (like on this cruise ship) can be opened.
I like fresh air as well.

 

[IceIce9]

This is not even remotely the same imo.
The "Hot Car" equivalent of this death would be like a caregiver seeing a car on fire and deciding to give the kid a peek inside anyway.

I should have been more clear in my post. I was intending to compare the people who think the grandfather has suffered enough, why charge him criminally? Many people say the same about parents whose babies or toddlers die when parents forget them in hot cars. The parents have suffered enough, don’t charge them.

Babies and toddlers are (or should be) the most important and precious things parents have, they are not to be handled carelessly or forgotten in hot cars.

Some parents take better care of their cell phones than they do their children. Would he have held his cell phone in such a careless manner as he held Chloe?

 

[IceIce9]

Exactly what I'm trying to say. She would have had to be mostly outside of the window for her body weight to fall out of the window. There is no physical way she could fall out of the window sitting on the railing. IMO.

They need to do a re-creation of the incident using a big floppy dol the same size and weight as Chloe.

 

[IceIce9]

Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants - Wikipedia

This reminds me of the "McDonald's Hot Coffee Lawsuit", which many people thought was frivolous. The plaintiff was awarded $640,000 by the judge. The original jury decision allowed 2.7 million dollars, which was reduced by the judge.

Which is why, there are so many warnings at McDonald's, about "Hot Coffee". People thought it was "frivolous", but it did result in improvements in warnings about the "hot coffee".

The difference here is that the lady who was scalded by hot coffee was not doing anything negligent or risky, she was simply holding a coffee cup that was dangerously, unexpectedly, and unnecessarily hot.

 

[Area52]

Not yet - next week - I’ve packed my tape measure although now we know Freedoms railing is 18” from opening

Where is the 18" coming from. I must have missed it. I was on that ship recently, and looked out those windows, and I recall the railing being closer. I will be anxious to see your official report! Have a great trip!

 

[Kittybunny]

One hopes to never see the pain and suffering the Wiengand's and their extended family must be enduring after losing their dear child at the hands of her grandfather SA.

Following this tragedy, we learned only recently that after reviewing the evidence (over more than 90 days), San Juan investigators and the prosecutor determined that there was no malice by the grandfather in Chloe's death, and SA was charged with the misdemeanor "criminal negligence" for his reckless actions that led to her death.

Given the lesser charge, I know many people agree with you that SA's probably suffered enough already, and why even charge him at all.

Speaking for myself, five months since the tragedy was sufficient to learn more about the defendant himself -- including that he appeared to be a very doting grandfather and no doubt of the mutual love between them. However, I am convinced that the criminal negligence charge against SA for the death of his granddaughter is well-founded.

I believe the negligence charge against SA is appropriate because I think there's a very defiant and reckless side to SA that greatly contributed to his granddaughter's death.

My opinion of SA's reckless demeanor is based on information provided in Indiana public records which include that SA has received not one but five (5) infractions for failure to wear his seat belt! [9-19-10-2/IFD: Failure of Occupant to Use Safety Belt].

The same records indicate SA has also received at least three (3) citations for speeding 70+ in 55 mph posted zones.
[9-21-5-3/IFC: Speeding - Exceeding Posted Speed Limit].

I believe the violations above are a reflection not only of SA's disregard for his own safety but also the safety of others.
I especially find the repeated violations for not wearing a safety belt inexcusable and offensive.

As a repeat offender of universal, reasonable safety standards, it's very clear to me how SA could proceed to violate the passenger safety rules of the cruise ship within hours of boarding the ship. I don't see it as complicated -- if SA doesn't think the rule important, it doesn't apply to him-- and damn any consequences for not complying.

I believe SA approached the cruise vacation with the same attitude when he not only encouraged but facilitated his granddaughter to approach the glass walls and/or windows on the ship and bang on them as if they were hockey rink plexiglass-- knowing full well that the Freedom of the Seas cruise ship is nothing close to a hockey rink.

I can't help but think how under SA's supervision, their presence on the ship was an accident waiting to happen. At this point, I think even if the ship windows were closed, what would have prevented SA from raising the child to the window and breaching the railing where they could have crashed the glass injuring them both.

Most importantly, I really believe that not holding people like SA accountable for violations or reckless behavior serves only to confirm in their mind the notion that rules don't apply to them, or in this case, that they're above the law. I think it leaves the door open to place you, me, or the next grandchild at risk.

Of course, there's no guarantee that the court action or penalty will serve as a wakeup call for SA but I have little doubt that SA would live to violate similar safety rules if he was not charged in this matter albeit a misdemeanor.

Please don't think I have no empathy for SA as I really do -- but I also have great concern about how he wants to blame others for this tragedy instead of acknowledging his own reckless actions that led to his granddaughter's death.

MOO

Indiana Supreme Court public access case search - MyCase

Great post! Very well-thought out and supported. I totally agree!

 

[Montrealaise]

This article about 'window falls' (in the home) certainly suggests that adults can use preventative methods and common sense to avoid window falls in their own homes.

When applying the relevant ones to this case:


"Every year, about eight children under the age of five die from injuries sustained from falling out a window.

- When opening a window for ventilation, use those located out of a child’s reach. For example, the upper sash of a double-hung window. (RCCL - yes)
- Don’t rely on insect screens to prevent a window fall. Insect screens are designed to keep bugs out, not to keep children in. Screens are not safety devices. (RCCL - yes)
- Avoid placing furniture near windows to prevent young children from climbing. (RCCL - yes)
- Supervise children and train them to not play near windows, balconies or patio doors. (SA - no)"

Window Safety 101: Preventing Window Falls | Glass.com

The article and the safety tips it provides all assume that when a child falls out of window, they got to that window on their own. I suppose that the author didn't include "don't lift children up to windows and sit them on the window sill" because it's beyond obvious - I mean, who would be foolish enough and reckless enough to do such a thing?

 

[oviedo]

Where is the 18" coming from. I must have missed it. I was on that ship recently, and looked out those windows, and I recall the railing being closer. I will be anxious to see your official report! Have a great trip!

Video shows girl's final moments with grandfather before cruise ship death
This one says about a foot- I believe it’s in the complaint but I can’t access anything beyond page 2
Complaint - Wiegand vs Royal Caribbean Cruises LTD - LMAW, PA
I think the 18” was posted upthread but I can’t find it - will keep looking as I know I saw it
JMO

 

[GoneGoldfishin']

Video shows girl's final moments with grandfather before cruise ship death
This one says about a foot- I believe it’s in the complaint but I can’t access anything beyond page 2
Complaint - Wiegand vs Royal Caribbean Cruises LTD - LMAW, PA
I think the 18” was posted upthread but I can’t find it - will keep looking as I know I saw it
JMO

It's on page 7 of the complaint. Thanks for posting the link!

 

[al66pine]

18 Inches? <--- Peeps, Read Carefully. And Pane but No Pane?

Video shows girl's final moments with grandfather before cruise ship death
This one says about a foot- I believe it’s in the complaint but I can’t access anything beyond page 2
Complaint - Wiegand vs Royal Caribbean Cruises LTD - LMAW, PA
I think the 18” was posted upthread but I can’t find it - will keep looking as I know I saw it
JMO

@oviedo Complaint, page 7, paragraph 18:
"Due to the distance between Mr. Anello standing at the wooden rail and the glass pane 18 inches in front of him, it was not apparent to Mr. Anello that the glass pane in front of him was, in fact, a window that had been slid all the way open so that there was no glass at all in the single frame in front of him." bbm

Wait a second. What's that again, Mr Winkleman?
Q1) "...Mr. Anello standing at the wooden rail and the glass pane 18 inches in front of him..."
Does it say that railing-to-glass distance is 18 inches?
Or SA-to-glass distance is 18 inches?
Imo, looks like measuring two different distances.
If nothing else, this changes distance by width of rail.
Is this an attempt to makes it seem G'pa did not have Chloe so close to window?

Q2) "...glass pane in front of him...there was not glass at all in the single pane in front of him..."
Hmmm.
ETA: Sorry, link was already posted. @GoneGoldfishin' Thx

 

[LietKynes]

It has to be frustrating for Winkleman and others to struggle to keep their story straight and keep coming up with more excuses to blame RCCL.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Video shows girl's final moments with grandfather before cruise ship death
This one says about a foot- I believe it’s in the complaint but I can’t access anything beyond page 2
Complaint - Wiegand vs Royal Caribbean Cruises LTD - LMAW, PA
I think the 18” was posted upthread but I can’t find it - will keep looking as I know I saw it
JMO

The distance of one foot plus the width of the railing, 4-6 inches added to the width of the window ledge with track equals 1.5 ft give or take a few inches. Measure from out of window, across tracks, towards interior of ship until interior edge of railing. Inside of ship facing deck, not window.
He was standing outside of the railing in the room. Start measuring from there. To fall, she had to be on the outside of the window. Measure to exterior of ship.
So he had to BEND OVER 18 inches to get her outside of the window. Or a big part of 18 in. And then more distance bc majority of her body had to be leaning out of the exterior of the window to fall out and down. Otherwise, she’d have fallen in between window and room. Either between window and railing or railing and room.
Incredible.
Not taking breathalyzer tells me why his senses might have been impaired. Reaction time is slowed with every ounce of alcohol. Thinking. Driving. Talking. Seeing. Holding on to Chloe had loosened and when she started to tilt forward, getting ready to fall, the two seconds he was slowed in reacting to her movement was the two seconds between catching or letting her drop.
Or however many seconds it took. Like you rear end someone. Bahm. “What happened? It happened so fast!”

 

[Midwestmom2019]

It has to be frustrating for Winkleman and others to struggle to keep their story straight and keep coming up with more excuses to blame RCCL.

“There’s his side of the story. There’s her side of the story. And the truth is somewhere in the middle.”
Legal logic.

 

[oviedo]

I agree he had to lean way over (consider his size when thinking of this effort) to have her in a position to drop her - I think the video will show him bending way over
IMO

The distance of one foot plus the width of the railing, 4-6 inches added to the width of the window ledge with track equals 1.5 ft give or take a few inches. Measure from out of window, across tracks, towards interior of ship until interior edge of railing. Inside of ship facing deck, not window.
He was standing outside of the railing in the room. Start measuring from there. To fall, she had to be on the outside of the window. Measure to exterior of ship.
So he had to BEND OVER 18 inches to get her outside of the window. Or a big part of 18 in. And then more distance bc majority of her body had to be leaning out of the exterior of the window to fall out and down. Otherwise, she’d have fallen in between window and room. Either between window and railing or railing and room.
Incredible.
Not taking breathalyzer tells me why his senses might have been impaired. Reaction time is slowed with every ounce of alcohol. Thinking. Driving. Talking. Seeing. Holding on to Chloe had loosened and when she started to tilt forward, getting ready to fall, the two seconds he was slowed in reacting to her movement was the two seconds between catching or letting her drop.
Or however many seconds it took. Like you rear end someone. Bahm. “What happened? It happened so fast!”

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

View attachment 220285
I agree he had to lean way over (consider his size when thinking of this effort) to have her in a position to drop her - I think the video will show him bending way over
IMO

I will never understand why SA had to lean over that far. I just cannot wrap my mind around this case.

 

[FunkyMonkey]

Video shows girl's final moments with grandfather before cruise ship death
This one says about a foot- I believe it’s in the complaint but I can’t access anything beyond page 2
Complaint - Wiegand vs Royal Caribbean Cruises LTD - LMAW, PA
I think the 18” was posted upthread but I can’t find it - will keep looking as I know I saw it
JMO

I have a feeling the 18” may be the upper part of the window. The bottom opening would be less because of the tilt. MOO

 

[SouthAussie]

The article and the safety tips it provides all assume that when a child falls out of window, they got to that window on their own. I suppose that the author didn't include "don't lift children up to windows and sit them on the window sill" because it's beyond obvious - I mean, who would be foolish enough and reckless enough to do such a thing?

I guess I see the last point "Supervise children and train them to not play near windows, balconies or patio doors" as pertaining to this case.

Chloe was not being shown the dangers of windows when she was picked up and sat and loosely held on a safety rail that is designed to protect people from an open window.

I actually don't think she was being taught the dangers of windows either when she was allowed to bang on windows. There is no way a child can understand that some windows are more sturdy than others.

 

[vallie]

Lawyers, I suppose, coach you to never confess, in public, but they also tell you never to talk about your case or do tv interviews or appearances. IN THIS CASE, the lawyers and family of law people are doing the exact opposite. Running a public campaign in the media . ? sympathy garnering has backfired since the beginning and it continues. They better be carful, they may be tainting a jury so that may bite them but how do you back pedal such a proclamation " fix the boat". I have a feeling the lawyers are getting ideas from comments online. When the internet comments blew up with "windows are tinted" the next press conference "i'm colorblind" for example..... JMO