Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #118

[Charlot123]

MOO an observation: not a lot of men in Indiana would wear a white scarf by choice, seems like something grabbed in the car.

Boxer, is there a group that wears white neckerchiefs as the part of uniform? What do Boy Scouts wear, they have something like a shawl, I forgot the color. How about Girl Scouts?

Having grown up in a country that does not exist...well we had something like BS, young pioneers, and we wore triangular neckerchiefs, only they were red. His looks like part of the same uniform, but white. What group wears them?

ETA: he wore something like this, the white one

Toby Chef Neckerchief

 

[JnRyan]

Boxer, is there a group that wears white neckerchiefs as the part of uniform? What do Boy Scouts wear, they have something like a shawl, I forgot the color. How about Girl Scouts?

Having grown up in a country that does not exist...well we had something like BS, young pioneers, and we wore triangular neckerchiefs, only they were red. His looks like part of the same uniform, but white. What group wears them?

ETA: he wore something like this, the white one

Toby Chef Neckerchief

The only organization I can think of with a white scarf as part of a uniform is the US Navy. Worn with bridge coats or peacoats. But I usually keep some items in my car like lined leather gloves, hoodie, watch cap AND a white scarf.

 

[Boxer]

The only organization I can think of with a white scarf as part of a uniform is the US Navy. Worn with bridge coats or peacoats. But I usually keep some items in my car like lined leather gloves, hoodie, watch cap AND a white scarf.

That's a good observation. Navy uniform. I could see a white scarf once part of someones uniform floating around in a car or be someones elses there for extra warmth if needed.

3501.43

 

[tresir2012]

You mean like CJ? I have thought of him also.

Not sure who you mean by CJ.

 

[KyDistiller]

First time posting here. Could the white item we see be a sash instead of a handkerchief?

Order of the arrow sash?

 

[TheVisual]

Not sure who you mean by CJ.

Very young preacher.

 

[Torch Carrier]

I think he was not only well-aware of the place. I always wonder what RI said about the crime scene being "physically strange". When I think of it, subconsciously what comes to my mind would be a scene from a sci-fi movie, but since the guy was not an alien, I wonder if he indeed lived very close by and the place bore the traces of his activity? People post a lot, so it is hard to decide what is right and what is not, but - why do LEO insist that the man was a hunter or a fisherman? Did he leave skeletons of fish, bones, some traps? Or, like what I once saw in a museum, a trapper's hut, with pelts, only under the open air?

Possibly BG used tools on the girls in such a way that it revealed to LE that the tools used or the cuts made (IF cuts made) were those commonly used/made by hunters or fishermen. (Or butchers? I know. .... )

 

[Torch Carrier]

I read somewhere a strange thing, they saw two deers, and then lifted their gaze and saw the girls. Which makes me wonder, were the girls somehow mounted/placed high up, or were the deers at the bank near the water. Why "lifted"?

I have often thought this too... and I clearly recall LE saying waaaay back they at first they did not realize it was a crime scene (sadly no link) so I have oft wondered if girls were hung or up in trees somehow.
AFAIK (not a hunter myself) some hunters do like to hang stuff from trees (animal hides, antlers, deer heads or whatever) but I can't imagine BG had much time. Yeah, "looked up" and saw them. Makes me wonder.

 

[Torch Carrier]

I thought it was the other way, they saw the movement of the deer then looked down and saw the girls. I took it to mean the deer were higher up the hill on a deer trail. MOO.

It was "looked UP and saw the girls" ... for sure.

 

[Torch Carrier]

Lots of great YouTube stuff out in recent days... true crime investigates... harvey carroll... surely others I have not heard of... glad to hear talk that some upcoming may have video of and/or info on that shack in the woods (middle of woods by the crime scene) as I hope to learn more about that.

 

[Torch Carrier]

First time posting here. Could the white item we see be a sash instead of a handkerchief?

Order of the arrow sash?

WELCOME KYDISTILLER!!!!!

 

[TheVisual]

I know of one who donated substantially to the reward fund very early on.
I find it veeerrry hard to believe THAT one could be involved but he*l, stranger things have happened, right?

Yes, look up his history!

 

[carbuff]

OMG, one does not need to be even smart, he just has to know how to Google. This should be enough.

Anyone can mask own DNA by creating an organic mess. Fish should be enough. Especially sticky one.

Maybe...remember something about leaves on the girls? Old leaves, leaves that were decaying. After the snow. Same thing, I presume. You need to clean them off, you remove foreign DNA with them. Or so I think.

It's hard to discuss this possibility without getting too graphic for the thread...

But it might have just meant the searchers approached from downhill, near the stream, and were looking uphill, where the deer happened to be walking past the bodies.

 

[tresir2012]

Very young preacher.

Oh yeah I remember now. Thanks.

 

[stattlich1]

MOO, speculation on my part. Pure speculation.

I believe there to be two perps involved, possibly only one actual murderer, but two, or more, involved.

-LE knows who the killer(s) are.
-The killer(s) are from Delphi.
-The killer(s) know the bridge area extremely well.
-The killer(s) are still hiding in plain sight.
-The killer(s) had planned the murders and were able to contaminate the scene such that
definitive proof has yet to be established OR
-LE is confounded as to which one of the evil demons actually murdered the girls. (I think this may be the issue, in terms of an impending trial.)
-This is NOT a cold case.

As far as the crime scene, it appears there was something unusual about it. My guess is
1. Items left at the scene that were bizarre.
2. the girls' bodies arranged in some sick, twisted fashion.
3. The girls bodies violated in such manner as I wish not to discuss.
4. A combination of all these.

I am convinced LE knows who did this. It would be nearly impossible to convince me otherwise, though I would surely entertain the argument

MOO

 

[Awsi Dooger]

I've been trying to rationalize the current 8 month radio silence as a positive. It certainly is preferable to Doug Carter issuing confusing and contradictory statements every few months. There is frequent DNA discussion on Reddit, apparently moreso than here. Yesterday in a thread there a poster very well versed in genealogical DNA was talking about 5th cousins and how long it would take to piece together toward the suspect, if that's all you had. The high profile cases that have been solved by this method have been very fortunate, with close enough proximity like 3rd cousins or nearer.

I thought I remembered reading something that broke down each category by how much backfitting it required. I found that link today:

Most People of European Ancestry Can Be Identified From a Relative’s DNA

This is the key paragraph:

“A second-cousin match is the sweet spot where it’s easy,” says Kennett, whereas a fourth-cousin match might take “thousands and thousands of hours’ work.” Identifying someone through a single third-cousin match is somewhere in the middle: It’s not trivial, but it’s very much possible."

***

I hope that's what is going on in this case behind the scenes...a painstaking 4th cousin family tree build. It's not likely, but IMO that is by far the best hope. In reading about every solved case via genealogical DNA the aspect that stands out is how frequently the term 3rd cousin is used. For more than a year I've been thinking that the related software and methods have got to be improving at rapid rate, to the point the more difficult cases can be attempted. They aren't going to try that type of thing without either high profile urgency, or plenty of money, or most likely a combination of the two. Delphi would seemingly be a great candidate...IF they have sufficient DNA that likely sources from the killer.

I hope that's the case because I'm sick of arguing about the particulars. For example, on another site I received a PM indicating that the hair being drawn on Bridge Guy is intended to mirror a specific suspect. That's why they are so adamant about it...they are trying to draw their guy onto the still frame and convince law enforcement to run around in circles and react. The PMer said not all of the posters are involved in that type of specificity -- that many simply believe it is hair alone -- but the ones taking it furthest own that bias. It makes perfect sense to me because straying from probability to greatest extreme almost always involves agenda fanaticism.

I knew it had to be something like that because one of the related posts matter of factly emphasized local guy. I was thinking...what does hair alone have to do with whether or not he was local?

It does if you're not trying to make a point so much as peg a name

 

[HEY YOU!]

I wonder if the DNA may be hard to trace due to an adoption or unknown actual father. As in, BG grew up thinking his 'father' was his real father but the reality is that another man impregnated his mother. Just a random thought.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Boxer, the "lair" discussion is about 3/4's in, maybe a little less. There's no timestamp on the recording that I see so I'm approximating.

122 | Worst Case Scenario: The Delphi Murders Best Case Worst Case podcast

Thank you. That's interesting. I remember having negotiated the second stage of down the hill but before reaching the creek I was thinking that it would been simple for Bridge Guy to plant something down there, a la Israel Keyes and his kill kits. You could bury it next to a tree with no concern it would be found.

Across the creek would be exponentially less risky. Before this tragedy I doubt many people went down by that area alongside the creek near the far end of the bridge. But among the ones who did, how many took it a step further and crossed the creek? It can't be more than 1 or 2%, if that.

I hope he did create a lair. More potential for DNA than if he did it on the fly.

 

[stattlich1]

I've been trying to rationalize the current 8 month radio silence as a positive.

Following are my thoughts/opinions, not anyone else's, as it is I who am pondering them

Awsi, I wanted to let you know I appreciate your input here. It's easy to get caught up in all sorts of wild theories and ideas. A lot of that, I think, comes from frustration, but some of it is simply the human condition.

I'm stickin' with the KISSweetheart principle. At this juncture, I don't think this murder is as complicated as we may believe. I truly think it is local, and I think LE knows MUCH more than they reveal.

I must remind myself to keep my self in check, and not get too emotionally charged online

There is a major complication in this case, I'm not sure what it is, but it has thus far prevented an arrest.

If what I've speculated above is not true, then the alternative almost has to be that LE has no idea who the killer is, and/or it was someone who was passing through, a SK as it were. I find that hard to believe in light of the statements made by LE.

 

[carbuff]

re: third cousins and genaology tools:

I'm not sure how much help software would be with matches beyond third cousins. At that distance, lack of information becomes the big issue. Third cousins share a great-great-grandparent. That will take most families back at least a hundred years and into an era when people didn't pay as much attention to recordkeeping. What sources there are may have been lost or damaged, and they aren't on line. It was much more common in the US to repeat names within a family, so determining if the "Peter Smith" who married "Mary Lamb" is the same "Peter Smith" who married "Mary Pumpkin" can be tricky. Same guy, two marriages? Two guys, two marriages? One guy, one woman who was previously married? And in many cases Mary Lamb's birth name might not be recorded anywhere.

I have endless admiration for the people who have the knowledge and patience to unscramble the trail piece by piece.