Questions you'd like answers to...

[dcountmontecristo]

You can’t say this without some tests. You have no idea what she might have been laying on when she was dragged or what she was wearing or what the floor covering was that could have slid with little effort. There are too many unknowns to make a statement like that.

IMO, You should go where the evidence takes you and not develop a theory and then try to develop the evidence to point back at that theory.

just sayin'

 

[Steelslady]

According to a child abuse expert who reviewed the autopsy slides, the type of genital wound JonBenet sustained would've caused her to scream. The scream provoked the head-bash. The ligature strangulation was done to prevent her from ever waking up and telling.

That poor girl. OMG, that is so hard to read. I've read this before, but it upsets me all over again when I read it again.

JonBenet deserves justice.

 

[10ofRods]

edpower:

The question you raised has always been a serious problem for RDI theorists, especially for the vast majority who presume the crime started as an accident.

In the original theory of Steve Thomas it is supposed Patsy accidentally caused the head blow. Instead of calling 911 she sought to protect herself by staging an intruder scenario, because she believed JonBenet was already dead.

There are many RDI advocates who find this narrative hard to believe, not least because Patsy and her husband were highly intelligent people who one would expect to be able to determine if their daughter was dead or not. Hence it is common to suppose JonBenet was being sexually molested by someone in the family, and the murder was done to cover this up. This is theoretically possible, but it depends on assumptions to make it work:

1 JonBenet really was being sexually abused. Expert opinion is divided on this.
2 The Ramseys were aware of this abuse.
3 The Ramseys believed the abuse would be discovered if their daughter was taken to the hospital.

There are still others, more common in recent years, who believe Burke did it (either in total or just the head strike by accident) and the parents felt the need to continue with the crime to protect Burke.

Which experts disagree about the autopsy findings regarding sexual abuse?

 

[10ofRods]

Edpower, it may help to consider:

JonBenét lived for 45-120 minutes after the head blow (I trust the pediatric neuropathologist and the autopsy).

The knuckle imprint on JBR's neck was inflicted while she was still alive and still able to try and defend herself (there are tiny nail prints on the side of her neck, where someone had grabbed and twisted her shirt neck, causing a different pattern of abrasions than the garrote). Someone grabbed her by the shirt (crewneck?) and twisted. Then someone hit her (hard) on the head.

The strangulation that caused the tiny hemorrhages in her eyes and elsewhere came with the garrote (last). There are no defensive wounds on the neck during this part of the assault. The garrote was pulled very tight and not loosened until death occurred.

The sexual abuse that left blood in her panties occurred before she died.
--------

IMO, JBR would have been in agonal breathing (Cheyne-Stokes). A lot of people would know that this meant JBR was essentially comatose and dying. It would have been very distressing to anyone who thought that the head blow should have killed her (or was meant to kill her).



The medical examiner found evidence of prior sexual abuse/molestation.

 

[Emerald2]

Which experts disagree about the autopsy findings regarding sexual abuse?

10ofRods:

Dr Beuf, JonBenet's pediatrician, claims he saw no evidence of sexual abuse in JonBenet. Of course, not everyone would regard the family doctor as an "expert".

Dr. Leon Kelly, Lecturing Professor at the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs, backs him up on the absence of prior sexual abuse in JonBenet:
RDI claim "Jonbenet Ramsey had evidence of prior sexual abuse" vs the power of the Daubert Side of the Forensics

 

[10ofRods]

10ofRods:

Dr Beuf, JonBenet's pediatrician, claims he saw no evidence of sexual abuse in JonBenet. Of course, not everyone would regard the family doctor as an "expert".

Dr. Leon Kelly, Lecturing Professor at the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs, backs him up on the absence of prior sexual abuse in JonBenet:
RDI claim "Jonbenet Ramsey had evidence of prior sexual abuse" vs the power of the Daubert Side of the Forensics

But Dr Beuf never states that he examined her genitals (nor would that be an ordinary standard of care for a general pediatrician). I'm asking about experts who actually examined her (or the medical examiner's report).

I do not find that link readable or convincing. In fact, I'm not following (at all) what that link (to a forum with anonymous posters) is trying to claim. In fact it would seem that the Daubert "side" insists that only expert pathologists should comment. I would say that the original ME counts as one of those.

 

[MyBelle]

Ok, so if the parents did do it, I have one question....why did they stage a second cause of death?

To clarify, if John, Patsy, and/or Burke killed JonBenet (by accident or on purpose) by either strangling her or by a head injury, then why cover it up by either strangling her or hitting her on the head?

Ex:

* Family member(s) kill JonBenet.
* Family member(s) decides to cover it up that they did it.
* To cover it up, family member(s) then further brutalize the already dead body to make it look like it was murdered?

Why would they fake "re-kill" the already murdered body to make it look murdered if it was already murdered?

I feel like I'm missing something here.

Thanks.

You aren't missing anything. The family has been cleared. Tonight, I'm babysitting and for the first time in years, I watched several programs devoted to the murder, (I think the channel has something to do with either A&E or Court TV) including several done by Reporter Elizabeth Vargas. I was impressed with the depth and credentials of the lead investigator (former FBI) All medical experts interviewed share the same opinion: an unknown male killed JonBenet. As DNA analysis has advanced over the years, the DNA has been entered into CODIS. Detective Lou Smits continued to investigate up until he died in hospice a few years ago. His extensive files include a spread sheet with around 50 suspects still being excluded. The programs showed the lead investigator collecting DNA from some of the suspects, including going through their trash.

The medical experts all agree the child was conscious when the garrote was placed around her neck and there are her own nail marks above it showing she struggled and fought with her attacker. They presented several theories but none involve the family in any way. They believe it started as a kidnapping and she was murdered because she fought back. I have no reason to doubt their expert opinions.

JMO

 

[edpower]

Well, this seems to have gotten back to everyone posting their theories, which is cool, but my original point was the RDI theory doesn't make any more sense to me than any of the other theories, but the RDI theorist seem to act as if anything but the RDI theories are somehow more ludicrous then the RDI ones.

 

[UKGuy]

Well, this seems to have gotten back to everyone posting their theories, which is cool, but my original point was the RDI theory doesn't make any more sense to me than any of the other theories, but the RDI theorist seem to act as if anything but the RDI theories are somehow more ludicrous then the RDI ones.

edpower,
That's because there is zero forensic evidence linking to anyone outside of the Ramsey house.

Its that simple, then of course the family never helped themselves avoiding lea interviews, which includes Burke Ramsey incidentally, he declined to be interviewed by cold case investigators.

Its a pretty simple case: young girl murdered in her own home!


.

 

[10ofRods]

How do you know the brush handle was inserted into JonBenet?

Because fragments of it (3, I believe) were found in her vagina. Later, one expert would opine that it was difficult to know how long they'd been there.

Something went into JonBenet's vagina and caused bleeding (in two different places, IIRC). Without the missing segment of paintbrush, it's hard to know if that caused the bleeding. If it was not the paintbrush, then more than one thing was pushed into JBR the night she died.

She was still alive when the blood-producing injuries occurred.

 

[10ofRods]

I have lots of questions:

Which documentary best shows the Ramseys leaving their house in the afternoon of Dec 26? Even better, which documentary best shows the Ramseys in Atlanta for the funeral?

Did the Ramseys ever send a moving company to get their things?

Why are there visible bruises in some of JBR's pageant photo?

Is it just Steve Thomas who says that Dr Beuf documented multiple bruises on JBR's arms and legs? Is this in any official report?

Was Dr Beuf really there on the morning of Dec 26? How do we know that?

Does anyone know where I can find the daily agenda of the Grand Jury? It has disappeared as a link from the PB JBR forum.

 

[Cottonstar]

I have lots of questions:

Which documentary best shows the Ramseys leaving their house in the afternoon of Dec 26? Even better, which documentary best shows the Ramseys in Atlanta for the funeral?

Did the Ramseys ever send a moving company to get their things?

Why are there visible bruises in some of JBR's pageant photo?

Is it just Steve Thomas who says that Dr Beuf documented multiple bruises on JBR's arms and legs? Is this in any official report?

Was Dr Beuf really there on the morning of Dec 26? How do we know that?

Does anyone know where I can find the daily agenda of the Grand Jury? It has disappeared as a link from the PB JBR forum.

Which documentary best shows the Ramseys leaving their house in the afternoon of Dec 26?

There is no footage of the Ramseys leaving their house on the afternoon of the 26th.

The Ramseys did have a moving company move their belongings to Atlanta.

 

[questfortrue]

I have lots of questions:

Which documentary best shows the Ramseys leaving their house in the afternoon of Dec 26? Even better, which documentary best shows the Ramseys in Atlanta for the funeral?

Did the Ramseys ever send a moving company to get their things?

Why are there visible bruises in some of JBR's pageant photo?

Is it just Steve Thomas who says that Dr Beuf documented multiple bruises on JBR's arms and legs? Is this in any official report?

Was Dr Beuf really there on the morning of Dec 26? How do we know that?

Does anyone know where I can find the daily agenda of the Grand Jury? It has disappeared as a link from the PB JBR forum.

 

[10ofRods]

Thank you so much, @questfortrue - that's just the ticket!

 

[Occams Razor]

Question I'd love an answer to:

Does anyone have access to the actual Aerospace-enhanced recording of the 9-1-1 call that allegedly contains the CLEAR evidence of Burke & John talking in the background? Or are all the "enhanced versions" we hear on the CBS special & online just "enhanced" by amateurs/other people? This is important because, without the right recording, we're all just chasing our tails into another Ramsey Spin brick wall.

Many trusted posters here & on old forums reported hearing a copy of the Aerospace tape on Geraldo & tabloid shows around 1998-2000 but it was quickly pulled after a single airing from the sound of it. And Boulder PD heard it & they all sound super convinced of what they heard. The voices are described confidently: John sounded angry & agitated; Burke placed an emphasis on the word "did" (What DID you find?). Chief Beckner said he heard what "sounded like those voices saying those words" in his AMA but "declined to comment" on other questions regarding the 9-1-1 call, which made me think maybe someone from the Boulder PD leaked it to Geraldo or smtg.

Anyway, I really want this cleared up because it's VITAL to get right. If we only have copies that have the guys' voices cut out, all the enhancement in the world won't make them appear. And that's what is alleged: that the 4-5 second part where Burke & JR are talking was erased in the version released to the public. I tend to believe that because, while I can hear Patsy saying "Help me Jesus" I have never EVER been able to clearly make out JR or BR's alleged contributions even on the CBS special.

The Grand Jury apparently gave a copy to Burke's lawyers for him to listen to, which is said to mean his voice was indeed on the tape. That's what my deep dive into this forum told me last night anyway, lol. But there's no way to definitively claim his voice is on the tape from any of the copies I've ever heard. It's just not there.

So where is this Aerospace-enhanced tape & who removed the bit with JR & BR's voices from the original recording? What legal grounds would Lin Wood or others have to stop the press from playing the call in its entirety?

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Question I'd love an answer to:

Does anyone have access to the actual Aerospace-enhanced recording of the 9-1-1 call that allegedly contains the CLEAR evidence of Burke & John talking in the background? Or are all the "enhanced versions" we hear on the CBS special & online just "enhanced" by amateurs/other people? This is important because, without the right recording, we're all just chasing our tails into another Ramsey Spin brick wall.

Many trusted posters here & on old forums reported hearing a copy of the Aerospace tape on Geraldo & tabloid shows around 1998-2000 but it was quickly pulled after a single airing from the sound of it. And Boulder PD heard it & they all sound super convinced of what they heard. The voices are described confidently: John sounded angry & agitated; Burke placed an emphasis on the word "did" (What DID you find?). Chief Beckner said he heard what "sounded like those voices saying those words" in his AMA but "declined to comment" on other questions regarding the 9-1-1 call, which made me think maybe someone from the Boulder PD leaked it to Geraldo or smtg.

Anyway, I really want this cleared up because it's VITAL to get right. If we only have copies that have the guys' voices cut out, all the enhancement in the world won't make them appear. And that's what is alleged: that the 4-5 second part where Burke & JR are talking was erased in the version released to the public. I tend to believe that because, while I can hear Patsy saying "Help me Jesus" I have never EVER been able to clearly make out JR or BR's alleged contributions even on the CBS special.

The Grand Jury apparently gave a copy to Burke's lawyers for him to listen to, which is said to mean his voice was indeed on the tape. That's what my deep dive into this forum told me last night anyway, lol. But there's no way to definitively claim his voice is on the tape from any of the copies I've ever heard. It's just not there.

So where is this Aerospace-enhanced tape & who removed the bit with JR & BR's voices from the original recording? What legal grounds would Lin Wood or others have to stop the press from playing the call in its entirety?

From what I could gather:
Geraldo played the enhanced tape on 8/21/98. Some 3 hrs. later someone decided to copy the tape but only part of the tape was enhanced by then.
http://www.acandyrose.com/patsy911-FFJ.mp3

On April 21, Det. Melissa Hickman flew to Los Angeles to meet with Mike Epstein and Jim Roeder, engineers at Aerospace Corporation, for purposes of enhancing the recording of the 911 call received at the Boulder Regional Dispatch Center.
At her first meeting with the three engineers, Hickman was told that it appeared that the cassette had been recorded in a Dictaphone format which would require a special recorder to recopy. Hickman drove to the nearest Dictaphone company which was located in the San Fernando Valley. A Dictaphone technician examined the tape and told Hickman that the information was not recorded in Dictaphone format. Hickman, feeling the frustration of the proverbial goose chase, returned to her hotel.
That evening, Roeder called her at the hotel and asked her to return to Aerospace. Roeder had decided that the tape probably had been recorded on a regular format which could be copied digitally by their computer. A hard drive disk was made of the tape, and this disk was copied to a JAZ drive, a large disk with more memory than a standard floppy disk.
On the morning of April 22, Hickman met again with Roeder in his office at Aerospace. The detective and the engineer went to a small lab to work with the disk to try to filter out extraneous noise and enhance the voices in the background. Roeder made several variations using different noise reduction settings, and those recordings were then copied onto the JAZ drive. They returned to Roeder's office where they were able to further enhance the disk. With this latest enhancement, they were able to hear two voices on the tape one of which sounded like a juvenile male, and the second one appeared to be Patsy. The first words seemed to belong to the juvenile, and then Patsy is heard to say, "Help me Jesus, help me Jesus." The voice again appeared to be the "juvenile male saying, "Please, what do I do?'' Hickman and Roeder agreed to meet again in the morning to continue enhancing the tape.
When Hickman returned to Aerospace the next morning to meet with Roeder, he said that he had continued listening to the disk after Hickman had left for the evening. He and another engineer had played the original version of the 911 call that had been transferred to the JAZ drive and found that to be the clearest recording. Both engineers had heard three distinct voices on the tape and written down that they thought was being said. The tape was then played for Hickman. After listening to the tape three or four times, Hickman heard John Ramsey say “We’re not speaking to you”. In what sounded like a very angry voice. Patsy then says, “Help me Jesus, help me Jesus,” and finally Burke is clearly heard to say, “ Well, what did you find?”, with an emphasis on the word “did.” After Hickman told the engineers her impression of the conversation, Roeder handed her a piece of notepaper containing the conversation heard by himself and his fellow engineer – the conversation as written down was exactly as Hickman herself had just heard.

How many times it had been copied before it got to that studio (that's what Schiller meant when he talked about the "generation" of the tape Lin Wood got from Lacy). I believe here is your power player.

A judge gave a copy of the original 911 tape to Burke's lawyer before he testified before the grand jury because it was commonly accepted by all LEGAL parties that Burke was on the tape. Otherwise, there would be no reason at all for Burke (through his lawyer) to get that tape. Period.

In his book, “JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation,” Thomas claimed that by enhancing the tape you can hear John and Patsy talking to their son Burke. He claims that’s important because the Ramseys reportedly told police their son was asleep at the time of the call. If true, Thomas claims it suggests the family was altering their story right from the start.

 

[fr brown]

....In his book, “JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation,” Thomas claimed that by enhancing the tape you can hear John and Patsy talking to their son Burke. He claims that’s important because the Ramseys reportedly told police their son was asleep at the time of the call. If true, Thomas claims it suggests the family was altering their story right from the start.

French's report says that Ramsey told him that his daughter had been kidnapped and that his son was asleep upstairs. I think that Burke was, in fact, in bed when French arrived.

Unless I'm missing it, French didn't ask if Burke had gotten up at some point.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

T

French's report says that Ramsey told him that his daughter had been kidnapped and that his son was asleep upstairs. I think that Burke was, in fact, in bed when French arrived.

Unless I'm missing it, French didn't ask if Burke had gotten up at some point.

The enhanced 911 call wasn’t heard until 8/21/98. Also, in BR interview in 1998 he stated thus:
DS: Who is the next person you saw?
BR: The policeman going into my room. No. It was either my dad coming in and turning off the lights, or a policeman coming into my room looking around... um. Wait, wait. It was my dad coming into my room and turning off the lights. And then there was the policeman coming in and looking around with a flashlight. Either way, BR admits to being awake and pretending to be asleep.

 

[fr brown]

T

The enhanced 911 call wasn’t heard until 8/21/98. Also, in BR interview in 1998 he stated thus:
DS: Who is the next person you saw?
BR: The policeman going into my room. No. It was either my dad coming in and turning off the lights, or a policeman coming into my room looking around... um. Wait, wait. It was my dad coming into my room and turning off the lights. And then there was the policeman coming in and looking around with a flashlight. Either way, BR admits to being awake and pretending to be asleep.

I'm not saying French should have asked if Burke was downstairs at any point; just that he didn't ask.

I'm not surprised that Burke was awake. Patsy had no doubt been hooting and hollering.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

I'm not saying French should have asked if Burke was downstairs at any point; just that he didn't ask.

I'm not surprised that Burke was awake. Patsy had no doubt been hooting and hollering.

frbrown,
I have to admit I wasn’t quite sure what you were addressing. Thank you for your clarification.