Members' Theories

[Rain on my Parade]

I'm not disagreeing with your overall points, UKGuy, but authors like Mark Fuhrman state that Patsy first said that she changed JonBenét from black velvet pants into Burke's outgrown long johns after John carried her up to her room (Furhman, The Murder Business, p. 111). I have read this several places and I believe it's in one of the early police reports. I see nothing odd about a little girl wearing her brother's hand-me-downs, this wasn't 1950. The oversized panties still remain an issue. Fuhrman's book does not have footnotes, unfortunately, but I do recall reading elsewhere that Patsy took responsibility for the long johns.

The odd and unusual thing about this to me is thus: JB had her own pajamas. Which brings into question, where were the pink pajama pants she wore on Christmas morning? We know where the top was found. This was a wealthy household. I am positive JB had more then two pair of winter pajamas that she wore. Looks more like BR shambling to find pants per instructions from his mother; to me. And if we are to believe everything PR said then what about her initial story of redressing JB in her red turtleneck sweater that night?

 

[UKGuy]

I'm not disagreeing with your overall points, UKGuy, but authors like Mark Fuhrman state that Patsy first said that she changed JonBenét from black velvet pants into Burke's outgrown long johns after John carried her up to her room (Furhman, The Murder Business, p. 111). I have read this several places and I believe it's in one of the early police reports. I see nothing odd about a little girl wearing her brother's hand-me-downs, this wasn't 1950. The oversized panties still remain an issue. Fuhrman's book does not have footnotes, unfortunately, but I do recall reading elsewhere that Patsy took responsibility for the long johns.

I totally agree that the Barbie nightgown is a major clue, unexplained and rarely considered.

Anyway, I thought the same thing about the long johns and started reading about it, in the past couple of days. To me, it's Patsy's fibers (and is there DNA?) within the knots of the garrote that's so compelling as evidence.

It's just so hard to understand how a parent could inflict a major head blow and then go on to finish the child off. I have also been brushing up on pediatric head wounds, and while JonBenét would eventually have died from her head wound, I do believe there was the possibility of saving her (having read some pretty amazing recovery stories for head wounds in the under 8 group - she had some bleeding in her brain that would have eventually killed her, but had she gotten to an ER in time, since her dura was intact and the bleeding was slow, she might very well have made a full or significant recovery)

But whoever dealt the blow...would be in prison. Would be disgraced. To my way of thinking, in all my years of reading about heinous crimes against children, it seems that the head blow comes after the sexual abuse and if the child isn't dead, another blow is dealt - I can't think of another case where the killer switched methods in the middle of the murder.

10ofRods,

but I do recall reading elsewhere that Patsy took responsibility for the long johns.

Excerpts from National Enquirer book, "JonBenet, The Police Files" by Don Gentile and David Wright

Patsy Ramsey: "Well, she was just really zonked and John carried her up to her room... and, I, uh, you know, ran up behind him and, or in front of him, I can't remember. Maybe, or it might have been in front of him to turn the bed down. And he laid her down and I got her undressed and put her, I left her shirt on her and, uh, went to the bathroom and tried to find some pajama pants and all I could find was some, like long underwear pants... and put those on."

Tom Trujillo: "What color of top did she wear to bed that night. What color top was she wearing actually to the Whites' house like?

Patsy Ramsey: "Well, she wore this little outfit that I had gotten her at the Gap. We had a little, little riff over that 'cause I wanted her to wear, I was wearing a red sweater and I wanted her to wear this red sweater with her black velvet pants, 'cause I was wearing black velvet pants and it was Christmas and all that. And she didn't want to wear the red shirt just because I was wearing it. She wanted to wear the shirt that went with the outfit which was a Gap out fit that I had bought her when we went shopping for her and it was a little white, kind of neck like this.."

Tom Trujillo: "Kind of a crew neck?"

Patsy Ramsey: "...Crew neck and it had a little, little rhinestone, little kind of sequin kind of star thing on it."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay."

Patsy Ramsey: "So I just left that on her."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. And I'm sorry. What kind of pants, what color of pants...?"

Patsy Ramsey: "They were black velvet. Black velvet jeans, kind of like, from the Gap. Some little black velvet vest."

Tom Trujillo: "And what were you wearing Patsy, a, a red turtleneck and black...?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Velvet jeans, yeah."

Anyway, I thought the same thing about the long johns and started reading about it, in the past couple of days. To me, it's Patsy's fibers (and is there DNA?) within the knots of the garrote that's so compelling as evidence.

No mention of dna, but Patsy's is bound to be present as she claimed to put JonBenet to bed!

It's just so hard to understand how a parent could inflict a major head blow

IMO a different person whackedJonBenet and another added the ligature, at different points in time.

I can't think of another case where the killer switched methods in the middle of the murder.

Sure and that's how we know its all staged, the wine-cellar is really akin to a deposit site than an actual staged crime-scene, as the context does not match the crime.

.

 

[UKGuy]

The odd and unusual thing about this to me is thus: JB had her own pajamas. Which brings into question, where were the pink pajama pants she wore on Christmas morning? We know where the top was found. This was a wealthy household. I am positive JB had more then two pair of winter pajamas that she wore. Looks more like BR shambling to find pants per instructions from his mother; to me. And if we are to believe everything PR said then what about her initial story of redressing JB in her red turtleneck sweater that night?

Rain on my Parade,
BPD 1998 Patsy Interview Excerpt

1 TOM HANEY: What is it?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: It is her Barbie nightgown.

3 TOM HANEY: Is that hers or her Barbie

4 doll's? When would she have worn that last, do you

5 know?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear

8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before

9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little

10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.

11 And before that I don't remember. But neither of those

12 two nights she wore that.

13 TOM HANEY: Where would this particular --

14 well, let me back up.

15 Does this item have some particular

16 significance?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No.

18 TOM HANEY: How many nightgowns did she have?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: A lot.

20 TOM HANEY: Twenty, 30?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, 10 or so.

Patsy is just making the long-johns story up, she is explaining away why her Pageant Princess was dressed in Burke's long-johns and size-12 Bloomingdale's, bizarre!

JonBenet was wearing other peoples clothing and sizes way to large, this would guarantee a bad start to the vacation trip in the morning.

The parents are millionaires JonBenet had a wardrobe of clothes there was no need for JonBenet to be wearing Burke's long-johns.

The pink pajama bottoms have never been found, they likely exited in the same manner as JonBenet's size-6 Bloomingdale's.

.

 

[10ofRods]

JBR is pictured wearing her white top at the White's house. Patsy has said she and JBR quarreled over which top JBR would wear (JBR won, and wore her favorite white top, poor kid). Mom wanted her to be in a twinsy thing with the red turtleneck.

Lots of pictures seem to have evaporated in this case.

I cannot find any forensic testing on that red sweater whatsoever.

Only 1 knife appears in the evidence list (AFAIK) and it may have been moved from one place to another, so that there may not have been 2 knives - but that knife does not appear in the list of things that were DNA tested (which is very strange). It had an "ornament" broken off (and Burke's knife, the one from the diaper cupboard) had some kind of personalization on it.

If JBR was initially bound in her bedroom (as those fibers do seem to indicate), then she was moved (unconscious IMO) to just outside the "wine cellar" where she was strangled.

Among the potential weapons, I too would add golf club (it's probably my #1 choice - as Pam Paugh took the golf clubs out of the house on the 27th, right under the nose of police), and the flashlight was dramatically displayed (having been wiped of fingerprints) on the kitchen counter.

I don't know much about 1990's trophy construction for kid beauty pageants, but the ones my kids got for soccer (much smaller than JBRs) could make a hefty weapon (with a couple of different edge profiles). I've always wondered why the trophy area of JBR's room was all messed up.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Only 1 knife appears in the evidence list (AFAIK) and it may have been moved from one place to another, so that there may not have been 2 knives - but that knife does not appear in the list of things that were DNA tested (which is very strange). It had an "ornament" broken off (and Burke's knife, the one from the diaper cupboard) had some kind of personalization on it.

I stand corrected only one knife of BR was found in the basement. According to the Bonita papers: "Inside the room, investigators found the white blanket that John said had been wrapped around JonBenet, and the piece of black duct tape which had covered her mouth. .They also found bundled inside the blanket a child's pink Burble nightgown. A red Swiss army knife was also found lying in the corner of the room away from the blanket.
And from
DOI Page 321
"I wondered if, as they walked through the basement, any of the jurors brought up the issue of Burke's red Swiss army knife, which according to the media had been found on the countertop near a sink, just a short distance from where JonBenet's body was found.

Among the potential weapons, I too would add golf club (it's probably my #1 choice - as Pam Paugh took the golf clubs out of the house on the 27th, right under the nose of police), and the flashlight was dramatically displayed (having been wiped of fingerprints) on the kitchen counter.

It is my understanding that PP was not allowed in the basement when she removed items from the home. I do not recall evidence of them being removed by her.
BPD Search Warrant 12/27/1996 - Golf Clubs (4GLI)
BPD Search Warrant 12/27/1996 - Golf Club cover (50BAB)
BPD Search Warrant 12/27/1996 - Golf Club (79BAH)

I found this on the trophy’s: PMPT Page 83:
"The third-floor master bedroom had a cathedral ceiling and a view of the Flatirons. A framed print of red flowers hung over the fireplace. The king-size bed had a 4-foot-high hand-carved headboard. A rider workout machine sat beside an exercise bicycle. A corner desk held a computer. Displayed on the floor and shelves were twenty-three of JonBenet's pageant trophies. In a children's play area stood a 5-foot-tall pageant trophy next to one that measured 8-feet-1." As for her trophy room being all messed up; it is my understanding that the whole house was a mess!

 

[kay74]

I don't believe for a new York minute, John or Patsy killed their daughter. They went away that night and left doors unlocked and a basement window broken. They lived near a university area and I heard there were homeless people around. A neighbor shortly afterwards committed suicide. That's who I think did this, could be wrong. The head LE who came over focused immediately on John and Patsy whereas they should have been investigating ASAP and they didn't. John said they should have seen to it that all the doors were locked. Patsy was too lax that way, maybe used to her paid help taking care of things. These parents were punished for being punished! They even were going on a Disney cruise, I believe the next day! So sad.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

JBR is pictured wearing her white top at the White's house. Patsy has said she and JBR quarreled over which top JBR would wear (JBR won, and wore her favorite white top, poor kid). Mom wanted her to be in a twinsy thing with the red turtleneck.

Lots of pictures seem to have evaporated in this case.

I cannot find any forensic testing on that red sweater whatsoever.

Only 1 knife appears in the evidence list (AFAIK) and it may have been moved from one place to another, so that there may not have been 2 knives - but that knife does not appear in the list of things that were DNA tested (which is very strange). It had an "ornament" broken off (and Burke's knife, the one from the diaper cupboard) had some kind of personalization on it.

If JBR was initially bound in her bedroom (as those fibers do seem to indicate), then she was moved (unconscious IMO) to just outside the "wine cellar" where she was strangled.

Among the potential weapons, I too would add golf club (it's probably my #1 choice - as Pam Paugh took the golf clubs out of the house on the 27th, right under the nose of police), and the flashlight was dramatically displayed (having been wiped of fingerprints) on the kitchen counter.

I don't know much about 1990's trophy construction for kid beauty pageants, but the ones my kids got for soccer (much smaller than JBRs) could make a hefty weapon (with a couple of different edge profiles). I've always wondered why the trophy area of JBR's room was all messed up.

10ofRods,
I also found this:

JR asking Pam Paugh, if she remembered to "get his golf bag" after she returned from her raid at the Ramsey house, is extremely odd and suspicious. He asked Patsy's sister this right after she came back. The bag, or what was in the bag, was of obvious importance to him. Barb Fernie was the one that overheard JR say this. She ended up reporting it to LE. I believe that night was also the last night the Rams stayed at the Fernie's.

From FF:

"Barbara Fernie had raised another flag when she decided to contact investigators in early January, 1998. She and her son had seen photographs of golf clubs in a tabloid story about JonBenét while shopping in a grocery store and her son recognized the set of clubs as belonging to Burke. The sight of the golf clubs spurred her memory about an odd comment that John Ramsey had made to someone while the family was staying at the Fernie residence, after the discovery of JonBenét’s body. It was in this time frame that authorities had granted permission to Pam Paugh, Patsy’s visiting sister from Georgia, to enter the Ramsey home and retrieve a number of JonBenét’s personal belongings. This was during the time that investigators were still processing the crime scene for evidence, and the Ramsey family was permitted access to gather some items that were intended for the funeral services being arranged in Georgia. Mrs. Fernie recalled that John Ramsey had asked a strange question of the person stopping by her home one evening: He asked if they had remembered to “get his golf bag” from his house. Mrs. Fernie recalled that the individual replied that they had not been able to retrieve the bag, as the police would not let them downstairs."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[10ofRods]

Thank you, @Rain on my Parade

So...the golf bag remained in the basement and was never taken into evidence? (I should go back through the evidence lists again, but I don't remember seeing it). Then was boxed up and sent to Atlanta (I'm wondering out loud).

 

[UKGuy]

In essence only two people could have removed JonBenet's pink pajama bottoms, size-6 underwear and the remaining size-12's, e.g. Burke Ramsey or Pamela Paugh?

Theoretically John or Patsy may have had these items stashed about their person, but that is a long shot.

The underwear would fit in someones pocket, the pink pajama bottoms less so. So its possible pink pajama bottoms were simply overlooked?

Speculating: Burke walked out of the house with the underwear in his pockets, nobody searched him. Alternatively Pamela Paugh scooped the underwear up in her supermarket style sweep through the house? This seems more likely as this gives Patsy time to brief Pamela, e.g. Get the red holdall in JonBenet's bedroom?

The house was searched top to bottom for various items including underwear (size-12's) none were found. BPD have never declared the brand or the Day Of The Week of underwear taken from JonBenet's underwear drawer, other than to tell Patsy they were all size-6 and there were no size-12 Bloomingdale's, allowing the inference that the Intruder took them and left JonBenet behind, any takers?

I've always assumed that BPD do not have a full set of Bloomingdale's size-6 underwear, which Patsy purchased for JonBenet on her New York trip, along with the size-12's for her niece Jenny, i.e. a Wednesday size-6 pair of Bloomingdale's is missing?

.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
I remember early in the investigation a photo of a partially unwrapped holiday Barbie in the wine cellar. I wonder what ever happened to that photo?

Also, what about BR’s knives in the basement? One found in the wine cellar and one on the counter. According to LHP she hid the knife with the diapers in the upstairs laundry cabinet about a month earlier. No one knew where she had hidden it accept herself. The same cabinet the diapers were hanging out of.

The bedroom scene that has me puzzled is her pillow with blood on it. How, why? There were fibers from the sack that contained rope found under JAR, on JB body and her bed. The bathroom red turtleneck sweater on the bathroom counter. I have never read if they tested that sweater for presence of urine? PR first statement was she put JB to bed in that sweater. This has always rang true to me because of the early flight. She wouldn’t have to redress JB the next morning.

I believe BR and JB went down to the basement Christmas night. Alone, if not with DS. The weapon, I believe was a golf club. Whomever hit JB obviously was very angry! I can only imagine one person guilty of the head blow. Side note: in BR own word one of his knives had a special tool on it for making knots.

Thanks again for your input!

Rain on my Parade,

I remember early in the investigation a photo of a partially unwrapped holiday Barbie in the wine cellar. I wonder what ever happened to that photo?

Its available on websleuths under the appropriate thread. From memory it was mis-attributed, but do not quote me.

Also, what about BR’s knives in the basement? One found in the wine cellar and one on the counter. According to LHP she hid the knife with the diapers in the upstairs laundry cabinet about a month earlier. No one knew where she had hidden it accept herself. The same cabinet the diapers were hanging out of.

Either Burke found the knife or the person who searched the cabinet did, e.g. two different theories. The knife places Burke at the crime-scene, i.e. not in his bedroom asleep as claimed.

Alternatively Patsy found the knife and used it to construct the ligature and bindings, thereby implicating Burke, as do his long-johns, that is Patsy deliberately staged Burke into the crime-scene, same scenario if its John, any takers?

The bedroom scene that has me puzzled is her pillow with blood on it. How, why?

I've always assumed JonBenet was staged in her bedroom, then relocated down to the basement. She may have been assaulted in a different bedroom?

There were fibers from the sack that contained rope found under JAR, on JB body and her bed.

From memory it was determined the fibers arrived via cross transfer during the forensic recovery process?

The bathroom red turtleneck sweater on the bathroom counter. I have never read if they tested that sweater for presence of urine? PR first statement was she put JB to bed in that sweater. This has always rang true to me because of the early flight. She wouldn’t have to redress JB the next morning.

Yes, quite possible. they will have tested it for bloodstains and dna deposits. Either way once a kidnap scenario is decided on the red turtleneck has to be removed to make way for the White Gap Top.

If urine was an issue with the red turtleneck why wash/soak it and not her pink pajama bottoms which are missing of course, suggesting they were bloodstained?

So it looks as if JonBenet either did wear the Pink Barbie Nightgown or was staged in it in her bedroom, then redressed for the wine-cellar?

I have the impression JonBenet was moved down to the basement and an ad hoc redressing and cleanup took place, resulting in the Pink Barbie Nightgown being left in the wine-cellar as it, alike the pillow-case you mention, is bloodstained with JonBenet's blood.

.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

In essence only two people could have removed JonBenet's pink pajama bottoms, size-6 underwear and the remaining size-12's, e.g. Burke Ramsey or Pamela Paugh?

Theoretically John or Patsy may have had these items stashed about their person, but that is a long shot.

The underwear would fit in someones pocket, the pink pajama bottoms less so. So its possible pink pajama bottoms were simply overlooked?

Speculating: Burke walked out of the house with the underwear in his pockets, nobody searched him. Alternatively Pamela Paugh scooped the underwear up in her supermarket style sweep through the house? This seems more likely as this gives Patsy time to brief Pamela, e.g. Get the red holdall in JonBenet's bedroom?

The house was searched top to bottom for various items including underwear (size-12's) none were found. BPD have never declared the brand or the Day Of The Week of underwear taken from JonBenet's underwear drawer, other than to tell Patsy they were all size-6 and there were no size-12 Bloomingdale's, allowing the inference that the Intruder took them and left JonBenet behind, any takers?

I've always assumed that BPD do not have a full set of Bloomingdale's size-6 underwear, which Patsy purchased for JonBenet on her New York trip, along with the size-12's for her niece Jenny, i.e. a Wednesday size-6 pair of Bloomingdale's is missing?

.

UKGuy,
I speculate that either the items to be discarded were either taken out the next morning by PR (via her purse), JR deposits them in the trash behind the Barnhills (what was he looking for through those binoculars in BR window), or the MA took them when he possibly flew JAR out of Boulder. Wasn’t he missing in action when JR phoned him the next day?
And yes, why the secrecy about size 6 bloomies being discovered in JB’s drawer? She had them for a month. My feelings on this is it is just another part of the coverup by the R’s and their attorneys.
Did the cops not go through the dirty cloths or even search for the pink pajamas bottoms? Makes no sense.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Rain on my Parade,

Either Burke found the knife or the person who searched the cabinet did, e.g. two different theories. The knife places Burke at the crime-scene, i.e. not in his bedroom asleep as claimed.

Alternatively Patsy found the knife and used it to construct the ligature and bindings, thereby implicating Burke, as do his long-johns, that is Patsy deliberately staged Burke into the crime-scene, same scenario if its John, any takers?


I've always assumed JonBenet was staged in her bedroom, then relocated down to the basement. She may have been assaulted in a different bedroom?


From memory it was determined the fibers arrived via cross transfer during the forensic recovery process?


Yes, quite possible. they will have tested it for bloodstains and dna deposits. Either way once a kidnap scenario is decided on the red turtleneck has to be removed to make way for the White Gap Top.

If urine was an issue with the red turtleneck why wash/soak it and not her pink pajama bottoms which are missing of course, suggesting they were bloodstained?

So it looks as if JonBenet either did wear the Pink Barbie Nightgown or was staged in it in her bedroom, then redressed for the wine-cellar?

I have the impression JonBenet was moved down to the basement and an ad hoc redressing and cleanup took place, resulting in the Pink Barbie Nightgown being left in the wine-cellar as it, alike the pillow-case you mention, is bloodstained with JonBenet's blood.

.

Rain on my Parade
Either Burke found the knife or the person who searched the cabinet did, e.g. two different theories. The knife places Burke at the crime-scene, i.e. not in his bedroom asleep as claimed.

Alternatively Patsy found the knife and used it to construct the ligature and bindings, thereby implicating Burke, as do his long-johns, that is Patsy deliberately staged Burke into the crime-scene, same scenario if its John, any takers?


I've always assumed JonBenet was staged in her bedroom, then relocated down to the basement. She may have been assaulted in a different bedroom?


From memory it was determined the fibers arrived via cross transfer during the forensic recovery process?


Yes, quite possible. they will have tested it for bloodstains and dna deposits. Either way once a kidnap scenario is decided on the red turtleneck has to be removed to make way for the White Gap Top.

If urine was an issue with the red turtleneck why wash/soak it and not her pink pajama bottoms which are missing of course, suggesting they were bloodstained?

So it looks as if JonBenet either did wear the Pink Barbie Nightgown or was staged in it in her bedroom, then redressed for the wine-cellar?

I have the impression JonBenet was moved down to the basement and an ad hoc redressing and cleanup took place, resulting in the Pink Barbie Nightgown being left in the wine-cellar as it, alike the pillow-case you mention, is bloodstained with JonBenet's blood.

.

Here is the Barbie doll found in the wine cellar:

NoriahNZ, I completely agree with you. I recently made a similar post here: The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

But your photo array is much better constructed than mine! Actually, I was corresponding with Tadpole12 about this and he/she mentioned that this item about the doll ended up in the National Enquirer at some point. Here's a thread from that time period that may include the article, haven't had a chance to re-read the thread: A Doll Was Placed Next To JonBenet's Body In The Cellar!
Basically, Tricia was told by a source (who she trusts and has gotten good info from in the past, but admits could be wrong) that a doll or dolls was found in the wine cellar, and this photo was found after that info was released, seemingly backing it up. So in my opinion, it's possible the doll info was true but I do not think this picture is of the doll/s for the same reason you mentioned. I see FAO Schwartz wrapping paper wrapped around a box. The big tell is the rocking horse figure in the red portion of the object. If you look at the other wine cellar picture in my post, you see what looks like a white box with yellow on it with the white leg of the rocking horse cutting through the yellow.

Another thing that tips me toward thinking this is a present wrapped in that specific wrapping paper is that Kolar's book includes a picture of some of the other partially unwrapped presents in the wine cellar (page 340 in my copy). There is a large Lego box and two presents in the same FAO wrapping paper not far from where the mystery object is laying. Here are two crappy mock-ups of what I see in the photo. I don't have any photo editing software installed on my computer yet so I couldn't rotate the pictures to match up entirely.

About the blood stains, I have wondered why all those droplets of blood were splattered all over the front of the nightgown? Where did it come from? The only blood detected was from her vagina. There was a blood smear on the white shirt which I can attribute to transference. As you stated something had to have happened prior in her bedroom for blood to be found on her pillowcase.
You have me thinking about the scenario UKGuy!

As for the presence of BR knife found in the basement; it could have been anyone of the 3 people in the house that night. Somebody that would have been in the diaper cabinet.

 

[UKGuy]

Here is the Barbie doll found in the wine cellar:


About the blood stains, I have wondered why all those droplets of blood were splattered all over the front of the nightgown? Where did it come from? The only blood detected was from her vagina. There was a blood smear on the white shirt which I can attribute to transference. As you stated something had to have happened prior in her bedroom for blood to be found on her pillowcase.
You have me thinking about the scenario UKGuy!

As for the presence of BR knife found in the basement; it could have been anyone of the 3 people in the house that night. Somebody that would have been in the diaper cabinet.

Rain on my Parade,

Here is the Barbie doll found in the wine cellar:

There may have been a doll(s) somewhere in the wine-cellar, e.g. a Partially Opened Gift, but that picture does appear to be the FAO wrapping paper seen from an acute angle.

About the blood stains, I have wondered why all those droplets of blood were splattered all over the front of the nightgown?

JonBenet may have been placed on the nightgown as she was being cleaned up and redressed. Else the droplets could be from her nose, possibly the same source as that on her pillow-case.

Otherwise they might be simple transfer say from whatever was used to wipe JonBenet down, as per Coroner Meyer's claims? e.g. the cloth was dropped onto the nightgown?

Folks used to explain away the nightgown as arriving in the wine-cellar via static acquired in transit whilst being washed or in the tumble-drier?

This does not explain how the bloodstains or Burke's touch dna arrived on an item which is particular to the wine-cellar?

Something for folks to consider is : there was a pillow observed on a table-top in one of the kitchen crime-scene photos, this pillow vanished at a later point.

So the speculation is that JonBenet was whacked in the breakfast bar and and a pillow was brought down to place under her head,which was later in all the panic forgotten about?

This might be the same pillow that was bloodstained with JonBenet's blood?

However you cut it, the bloodstains and the touch-dna place JonBenet in her bedroom or the breakfast bar?

Burke's knife found in the basement links him to the crime-scene as does his touch-dna,neither should really be there.

Yet in the future Burke might wish to claim he returned back downstairs, see Dr Phil, to play with a toy and used the knife to do something?

.

 

[10ofRods]

Several pairs of underwear were numbered and collected as evidence (see pages 6 and 7 from the 12-27 warrant that logs what was taken)

I count a total of 14 pair, with 5 of those grouped together (as if they were a package) and 2 others grouped together. Each of these groups has only one evidence number assigned. There are a total of 12 different numbered child/girls underwear evidence pieces.

Also, a golf club and a golf club cover (separately labeled). Then apparently a group of golf clubs (so I guess I answered one of my own questions - the golf clubs were photographed as they should have been, in situ, and then collected as evidence).

There's also non-child underwear on the list.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Several pairs of underwear were numbered and collected as evidence (see pages 6 and 7 from the 12-27 warrant that logs what was taken)

I count a total of 14 pair, with 5 of those grouped together (as if they were a package) and 2 others grouped together. Each of these groups has only one evidence number assigned. There are a total of 12 different numbered child/girls underwear evidence pieces.

Also, a golf club and a golf club cover (separately labeled). Then apparently a group of golf clubs (so I guess I answered one of my own questions - the golf clubs were photographed as they should have been, in situ, and then collected as evidence).

There's also non-child underwear on the list.

10ofRods,
I looked at the search warrants and this is what I found:
A total of 14 pair of girls underwear
Yes, one of them was grouped as 5, several grouped as 2
3 pair of child’s underwear, 1 men’s underwear and 1 listed an underwear (I assume this was woman’s as it was listed with blouse).
A total of 19 pair of underwear taken into evidence.

As for the golf clubs, there was a set of them in the train room closet, 2 sets of them leading to the wine cellar, and one club found outside. I would assume that JR did end up with his set of clubs eventually; as this is all that was collected: Evidence - Golf Clubs

BPD Search Warrant 12/27/1996 - Golf Clubs (4GLI)
BPD Search Warrant 12/27/1996 - Golf Club cover (50BAB)
BPD Search Warrant 12/27/1996 - Golf Club (79BAH)

Instead of rehashing over and over I thought I would go back to the beginning of inconsistency’s. It will take me a while. I started this process years ago but wanted to come up with who did what. That’s impossible due to coverup. But I will still come up with a topic.

 

[10ofRods]

Yep, so building a theory on "cops didn't examine the underwear" doesn't work for me.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Yep, so building a theory on "cops didn't examine the underwear" doesn't work for me.

Me either.

 

[10ofRods]

10ofRods,

Excerpts from National Enquirer book, "JonBenet, The Police Files" by Don Gentile and David Wright



No mention of dna, but Patsy's is bound to be present as she claimed to put JonBenet to bed!


IMO a different person whacked JonBenet and another added the ligature, at different points in time.


Sure and that's how we know its all staged, the wine-cellar is really akin to a deposit site than an actual staged crime-scene, as the context does not match the crime.

.

Thank you so much - every point taken. I know several people who think it was a 2 person murder, as well. I'm undecided.

 

[10ofRods]

Rain on my Parade,

Snipped for focus.


Folks used to explain away the nightgown as arriving in the wine-cellar via static acquired in transit whilst being washed or in the tumble-drier?

This does not explain how the bloodstains or Burke's touch dna arrived on an item which is particular to the wine-cellar?

Something for folks to consider is : there was a pillow observed on a table-top in one of the kitchen crime-scene photos, this pillow vanished at a later point.

So the speculation is that JonBenet was whacked in the breakfast bar and and a pillow was brought down to place under her head,which was later in all the panic forgotten about?

This might be the same pillow that was bloodstained with JonBenet's blood?

However you cut it, the bloodstains and the touch-dna place JonBenet in her bedroom or the breakfast bar?

Burke's knife found in the basement links him to the crime-scene as does his touch-dna,neither should really be there.

Yet in the future Burke might wish to claim he returned back downstairs, see Dr Phil, to play with a toy and used the knife to do something?

.

I wish I could see the pink nightgown, but I think if it had been laundered post-blood spatter, that would be very easy to figure out.

I believe the pillow was taken into evidence.

And I'm confused about how you're tying those bloodstains to the night of the crime. Patsy herself can't say whether there were already bloodstains, claims JonBenet picked her nose and sometimes had nosebleeds. We know the housekeeper hadn't been around for a week. Patsy doesn't seem to remember changing the sheets or pillowcases. How do you know the nosebleed theory isn't correct?

Anyway, the sheets and the pillowcases are in evidence and apparently didn't help to solve this crime. JonBenet had no bleeding head wounds (external). Seems to me that Steve Thomas or Kolar would have been onto this. At any rate, unless the blood pattern is consistent with an injury to JonBenet (are you thinking the vaginal injury caused bleeding onto the pillow?)

But my main question is: which wine cellar item had Burke's DNA (aside from the presents that he apparently admitted he snooped - they were his birthday presents, IIRC)?

 

[Rain on my Parade]

I wish I could see the pink nightgown, but I think if it had been laundered post-blood spatter, that would be very easy to figure out.

I believe the pillow was taken into evidence.

And I'm confused about how you're tying those bloodstains to the night of the crime. Patsy herself can't say whether there were already bloodstains, claims JonBenet picked her nose and sometimes had nosebleeds. We know the housekeeper hadn't been around for a week. Patsy doesn't seem to remember changing the sheets or pillowcases. How do you know the nosebleed theory isn't correct?

Anyway, the sheets and the pillowcases are in evidence and apparently didn't help to solve this crime. JonBenet had no bleeding head wounds (external). Seems to me that Steve Thomas or Kolar would have been onto this. At any rate, unless the blood pattern is consistent with an injury to JonBenet (are you thinking the vaginal injury caused bleeding onto the pillow?)

But my main question is: which wine cellar item had Burke's DNA (aside from the presents that he apparently admitted he snooped - they were his birthday presents, IIRC)?

Here is the nightgown:
SILENT NIGHT
I’ve been thinking about how the blood got on the front of her nightgown like this and it makes sense IMO that the droplets would/could have happened when she was hit over the head and bled from her nose.

PR did make this statement which was odd about the curtains tie back behind JB bed:
12 TRIP DEMUTH: Let me ask you about this in
13 125.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: That is the (inaudible).

15 TRIP DEMUTH: Is that unusual to be hanging

16 over the door?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Usually they are kind

18 of tucked back.

19 TRIP DEMUTH: Five and four.

20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

21 TOM HANEY: That is the material that pulls

22 the drapery, it pulls it back.

23 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I don't see any blood

24 or anything, do you?

BR touch dna found on the Barbie nightgown:
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...481227870087/SCAN_20161101_181832293_005.jpeg