OH Pike Co., 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #53

[Cool Cats]

Wouldn't there have to be 2 sets of documents? One for custody and one in the event that HR would die.

The W's wouldn't have tried to get HR to sign the Texas document because that was a 'what in the event that HR dies then SW goes to the W's', would they?

It seems like they probably had actual custody documents that they asked HR to sign.

jmo

Interesting. I was under the impression these custody documents were only in case of death and not for current custody because the Wagners put it out in the MSM that they had not yet finalized a current custody agreement, so then they can't turn around and now say "oh yeah we did and Hanna signed it."

CGRAVES@ENQUIRER.COM
Updated 11:35 a.m. EDT June 26, 2017

"Rather, Angela Wagner said:

the couple wanted to legally formalize their agreed-upon shared custody arrangement."

"Wanted to" not done yet.

I think Jake was using Daily to get custody after April 22, 2016 but it's possible Jake consulted him about joint custody when he and Hanna were actually sharing custody.
Perhaps Jake didn't like what he heard and felt it would be better to go down a different path -- the evil way he chose.

 

[Puzzles8]

Wouldn't there have to be 2 sets of documents? One for custody and one in the event that HR would die.

The W's wouldn't have tried to get HR to sign the Texas document because that was a 'what in the event that HR dies then SW goes to the W's', would they?

It seems like they probably had actual custody documents that they asked HR to sign.

jmo

IANAL.. IANAL..
I don't think these documents would have been officially filed until after the "triggering event", i.e. HMR's death.

JMO, MOO

 

[Puzzles8]

dbm
It really seems we are all having problems posting (double).

Especially in replying to a post.

 

[Loomis124]

A long, very informative article full of little gems and dates...deep into these articles. About the searches.

Warrant: Investigators put GPS tracker on truck of Rhoden victim's brother

 

[Puzzles8]

Where did you find this info?

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Nice to see the thread is still active, hopefully 2020 brings justice for these victims, but I am thinking we may be a year or so away. UNLESS of course someone tries to cut a deal to save their own a$$.

 

[OhioBlues]

IANAL.. IANAL..
I don't think these documents would have been officially filed until after the "triggering event", i.e. HMR's death.

JMO, MOO

I thought there was a news article that stated that JW had gone to HR and asked her to sign the custody documents. I can't find any news articles to support tho.

I was wrong.

 

[Puzzles8]

I thought there was a news article that stated that JW had gone to HR and asked her to sign the custody documents. I can't find either any news articles to support tho.

I was wrong.

You are probably 100% correct.

No factual links here. just my hunch. JMO, MOO.

The truth will eventually come out.

 

[Cool Cats]

I thought there was a news article that stated that JW had gone to HR and asked her to sign the custody documents. I can't find any news articles to support tho.

I was wrong.

Court docs: Suspect filed for custody of child at heart of Pike County investigation days after slayings

"WLWT has not been able to find any documents related to the custody of Sophia that was dated prior to April 22, 2016.

A Rhoden family member told WLWT that Jake Wagner tried to get Hanna to sign over her rights to Sophia weeks before the murders. The Rhoden family said she refused to do so."

Rhoden family: Child at center of custody battle is safe

"Although prosecutors declined to discuss details of the custody battle, the Rhoden family said the Wagners tried to get Hanna Rhoden to sign her rights over to Jake Wagner weeks before the massacre."

You and Puzzles might be right about documents being available before April 22, 2016....but not officially filed. Hummm.......

HR wouldn't sign so they faked her signature and faked Rita's later, circumventing Jake's custody attorney Daily....2 Cents....

 

[sunshineray]

IANAL.. IANAL..
I don't think these documents would have been officially filed until after the "triggering event", i.e. HMR's death.

JMO, MOO

Would the "in case HR died" papers be consider a living will? That's what my husband and I had legally drawn up when our kids were very small, naming an immediate family member as their legal guardian in the event we died.

 

[Fletcher73]

I've never understood why BW, AW and sons hitched up with another church when Fred W had her own church on the property. Was there some connection between the Flying W Farms church and the one in AK? With the preacher in Ohio related to the preacher in AK?

Yes, the preacher in Ohio is related to the father and son preachers in Alaska. I think he (Jacob) is the brother of the preacher (Kelly's dad) who, IIRC, established the church in Seward (1989) that Kelly is now leading. I think Kelly's boys knew the W4 boys when they were young.

IOW, Kelly's uncle, also a preacher, was associated with a church in Minford. There was acquaintance between the Wagners and Cinereskis in Minford - but if the uncle was FW's pastor, that was before, but not at her church on the FWF property.

All that is JMO from talking to a coworker - Kelly's dad's was my coworker's pastor long ago. MOO - don't take it as gospel ")
sorry, couldn't resist...

 

[Cool Cats]

Would the "in case HR died" papers be consider a living will? That's what my husband and I had legally drawn up when our kids were very small, naming an immediate family member as their legal guardian in the event we died.

There is no mention of a Living Will or any Will in the Indictments for all 4 Wagners.

Here is Count #18 - I wanted to read it again and thought you would too:

Count #18

1. Nature of Offense:
Forgery, a Felony of the Fifth Degree.

2. Conduct of the Defendant Date and Time:

(GW3, Angela, GW4, Jake Wagner) on or about April 3, 2016, at the County of Pike, and in the State of Ohio, was facilitating a fraud, forge any writing to wit:
custody documents, without the other person's authority and/or did forge any writing,
to wit:
custody documents, so that it purports to be genuine when it actually is spurious, or to be the act of another who did not authorize that act, or to have been executed at a time or place or with terms different from what in fact was the case, or to be a copy of an original when no such original exists, specifically the defendant violated section 2913.04(B)....." of the Ohio Revised Code.

 

[Loomis124]

Wasn't this James M. Burks one of the previous owners of James Manley's red truck? Thanks.

Records reveal man shot by Pike deputy talked of 'death by cop' before incident

 

[Loomis124]

Yes, the preacher in Ohio is related to the father and son preachers in Alaska. I think he (Jacob) is the brother of the preacher (Kelly's dad) who, IIRC, established the church in Seward (1989) that Kelly is now leading. I think Kelly's boys knew the W4 boys when they were young.

IOW, Kelly's uncle, also a preacher, was associated with a church in Minford. There was acquaintance between the Wagners and Cinereskis in Minford - but if the uncle was FW's pastor, that was before, but not at her church on the FWF property.

All that is JMO from talking to a coworker - Kelly's dad's was my coworker's pastor long ago. MOO - don't take it as gospel ")
sorry, couldn't resist...

This explains the Cinereskis in a nutshell. JACOB was a preacher in Ohio, but did mission work in AK where he started Resurrection Bay church (and his son, Kelly preaches there currently -he is close friends with Billy and Angela.) Kelly's son, Jake (friends with JW and GW4) also have their own church in AK. JMO

Rev Jacob Cinereski (1940-2003) - Find A Grave...

 

[Renee110]

My horse died at the vet's (long story, but one in another town) so they called people at the "wolf zoo" - a place nearby - to pick her up as feed for their wolf-dog hybrids - really really really makes me sad 28 years on.

Later, since I still had my trailer, I hauled a horse that had to be put down to the landfill, where we unloaded at the working face, the vet put him to sleep, and the landfill operator proceeded to bury it. The oldest horse I knew (lived about 28 years here) was buried on their farm. That's the most common way.

I live in Tennessee and when you have dead livestock you call a rendering service to pick up the animal. You have to drag the horse/cow to the road...the beginning of your driveway because they won’t come onto your property to get the animal. I covered mine with a tarp so that people driving by wouldn’t see a huge dead animal lying there. They are pretty dang good at coming within 2-3 days but in the summer, just one day in the heat & humidity can make animal bloat to twice its size and they always (when bloated) rotate so they are on their back, all four legs straight up in the air so I always covered so that children wouldn’t see that. Can’t do anything about the smell though. Oh and there is no charge. The carcass is taken to the rendering plant and used for dog food etc..,

 

[Loomis124]

There is no mention of a Living Will or any Will in the Indictments for all 4 Wagners.

Here is Count #18 - I wanted to read it again and thought you would too:

Count #18

1. Nature of Offense:
Forgery, a Felony of the Fifth Degree.

2. Conduct of the Defendant Date and Time:

(GW3, Angela, GW4, Jake Wagner) on or about April 3, 2016, at the County of Pike, and in the State of Ohio, was facilitating a fraud, forge any writing to wit:
custody documents, without the other person's authority and/or did forge any writing,
to wit:
custody documents, so that it purports to be genuine when it actually is spurious, or to be the act of another who did not authorize that act, or to have been executed at a time or place or with terms different from what in fact was the case, or to be a copy of an original when no such original exists, specifically the defendant violated section 2913.04(B)....." of the Ohio Revised Code.

Gerlach said in court that the ones Rita allegedly forged were "actually guardianship papers," and they were (Discovery documents). IMO these are totally separate from the actual custody documents in the Dailey files. One important thing to remember is that HR's family reported Jake wanted her to turn over permanent custody to him (so he could take her with them on the move to Alaska, and she refused.) This is what I believe. I don't believe the guardianship documents were ever seen by HR, or she and Chris/Dana would have known in an instant they were in danger. Just my opinion.

 

[Cool Cats]

Gerlach said in court that the ones Rita allegedly forged were "actually guardianship papers," and they were (Discovery documents). IMO these are totally separate from the actual custody documents in the Dailey files. One important thing to remember is that HR's family reported Jake wanted her to turn over permanent custody to him (so he could take her with them on the move to Alaska, and she refused.) This is what I believe. I don't believe the guardianship documents were ever seen by HR, or she and Chris/Dana would have known in an instant they were in danger. Just my opinion.

Opinion only

Wow. I hadn't made a distinction between CUSTODY DOCUMENTS verses GUARDIANSHIP PAPERS (or documents same thing).

I also remember Gerlach using the term guardianship papers (or documents same thing) but I believe he is using this term loosely - as interchangeably with custody documents.

The indictment does not charge the Wagners with fraud related to guardianship documents, it charges them very specifically with Custody Document Fraud.

Difference Between Guardianship and Custody | Compare the Difference Between Similar Terms

Guardianship and child custody are not that very far from each other in terms of legal terminology.
In custody or legal child custody, it’s for a parent-child or adult-minor kind of case. Since minors can’t make right decisions on their own, custody over them is usually given to the mother or father in case of parent separation.

In brief:

• Guardianship can be given to anyone who is incapable mentally or physically on behalf of themselves. Guardianship is limited in its range of decision-making.

• Custody is more on parent-child or adult-minor case.
Custody has the superior authority in decision-making especially on complicated matters.

 

[Loomis124]

Opinion only

Wow. I hadn't made a distinction between CUSTODY DOCUMENTS verses GUARDIANSHIP PAPERS (or documents same thing).

I also remember Gerlach using the term guardianship papers (or documents same thing) but I believe he is using this term loosely - as interchangeably with custody documents.

The indictment does not charge the Wagners with fraud related to guardianship documents, it charges them very specifically with custody document fraud.

Difference Between Guardianship and Custody | Compare the Difference Between Similar Terms

Guardianship and child custody are not that very far from each other in terms of legal terminology.
In custody or legal child custody, it’s for a parent-child or adult-minor kind of case. Since minors can’t make right decisions on their own, custody over them is usually given to the mother or father in case of parent separation.

In brief:

• Guardianship can be given to anyone who is incapable mentally or physically on behalf of themselves. Guardianship is limited in its range of decision-making.

• Custody is more on parent-child or adult-minor case.
Custody has the superior authority in decision-making especially on complicated matters.

I believe there were issues with both sets: custody documents with Dailey and Rosenberger, and guardianship documents (forms in Discovery). It's difficult to explain here, but clearly there are 2 sets and their purposes are entirely different. The guardianship papers were to insure SW and BW went to the Guardian named (?) in case of death of JW/HR and GW4 (the murders). After all JW and GW4 could have been killed during the murders, thus the guardianship papers were needed for them, too. It is very clear to me just from reading the documents.

I haven't seen the custody docs, so can't comment. JMO and I'll let the subject rest.

 

[Loomis124]

Opinion only

Wow. I hadn't made a distinction between CUSTODY DOCUMENTS verses GUARDIANSHIP PAPERS (or documents same thing).

I also remember Gerlach using the term guardianship papers (or documents same thing) but I believe he is using this term loosely - as interchangeably with custody documents.

The indictment does not charge the Wagners with fraud related to guardianship documents, it charges them very specifically with Custody Document Fraud.

Difference Between Guardianship and Custody | Compare the Difference Between Similar Terms

Guardianship and child custody are not that very far from each other in terms of legal terminology.
In custody or legal child custody, it’s for a parent-child or adult-minor kind of case. Since minors can’t make right decisions on their own, custody over them is usually given to the mother or father in case of parent separation.

In brief:

• Guardianship can be given to anyone who is incapable mentally or physically on behalf of themselves. Guardianship is limited in its range of decision-making.

• Custody is more on parent-child or adult-minor case.
Custody has the superior authority in decision-making especially on complicated matters.

But Rita has already confessed she lied about the guardianship papers, and only those documents.

 

[Loomis124]

Opinion only

Wow. I hadn't made a distinction between CUSTODY DOCUMENTS verses GUARDIANSHIP PAPERS (or documents same thing).

I also remember Gerlach using the term guardianship papers (or documents same thing) but I believe he is using this term loosely - as interchangeably with custody documents.

The indictment does not charge the Wagners with fraud related to guardianship documents, it charges them very specifically with Custody Document Fraud.

Difference Between Guardianship and Custody | Compare the Difference Between Similar Terms

Guardianship and child custody are not that very far from each other in terms of legal terminology.
In custody or legal child custody, it’s for a parent-child or adult-minor kind of case. Since minors can’t make right decisions on their own, custody over them is usually given to the mother or father in case of parent separation.

In brief:

• Guardianship can be given to anyone who is incapable mentally or physically on behalf of themselves. Guardianship is limited in its range of decision-making.

• Custody is more on parent-child or adult-minor case.
Custody has the superior authority in decision-making especially on complicated matters.

My only answer is perhaps there's more to the Discovery.

Since RN's case is pretty much stopped in time, this leaves the Dailey files and the guardianship documents in limbo. JMO