IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[justbreathe]

No, he looks out the window before picking Chloe up, then he looks out the window a second time after setting her on the railing beside him. Both times were before he dropped her. So why would he be looking down for Chloe when she is sitting on the railing beside him?

She was not sitting on any rail after she fell. When she “disappeared” I can only assume SA looked down.

He says he was looking for her on the floor but saw her fall all the way down.

There is a pic from a member that shows exactly what he would have seen.

 

[justbreathe]

What I would like to know is when he looked over the railing, was he looking down at the floor into the space between the railing and the window or was he really looking out of the window and down the side of the ship to the ground?

When he said he looked for her down on the floor maybe he was thinking that she fell there instead of out the window. Then he immediately looked out the window since she wasn't on the floor and realized she had fallen from the ship.

Imo

I am explaining this poorly. But yet I persist - good for me!

You don’t have to lean out the window to see down. Each row of glass slants out a bit from the ship.

So looking down you see your feet, and the entire side of the ship to the ground or sea through the bottom row of glass. Because it is not perpendicular - it slants out.

 

[justbreathe]

Can someone please respond with the following:
1). What is the height from the floor to the railing?

2) What is the distance from the railing to the window sill?

3) Is there a ledge at the bottom, below the railing, for an adult to tip-toe on?

4) How tall is SA? How tall was Chloe?

After watching both videos, I’m convinced that SA hoisted Chloe up to the rail. I’m not convinced that she was placed anywhere other than the railing.

The sideways video has pillars in the way, which make it look like SA was hoisting her to the window sill, but I don’t think that is true due to the pillars being in the way of the camera.

I’ve re-enacted this in my house and am convinced that she was hoisted up to the railing. But being top-heavy, as all toddlers are, she squirmed and leaned forward and thus tumbled out.

But without the measurement between the railing and window, as well as SA and her heights, it’s difficult to determine if she could tumble out.

We all assume he stood Chloe in the window frame because MW’s recreation has the SA stand-in holding the Chloe doll in the window frame.

 

[Forever Young]

Can someone please respond with the following:
1). What is the height from the floor to the railing?

2) What is the distance from the railing to the window sill?

3) Is there a ledge at the bottom, below the railing, for an adult to tip-toe on?

4) How tall is SA? How tall was Chloe?

After watching both videos, I’m convinced that SA hoisted Chloe up to the rail. I’m not convinced that she was placed anywhere other than the railing.

The sideways video has pillars in the way, which make it look like SA was hoisting her to the window sill, but I don’t think that is true due to the pillars being in the way of the camera.

I’ve re-enacted this in my house and am convinced that she was hoisted up to the railing. But being top-heavy, as all toddlers are, she squirmed and leaned forward and thus tumbled out.

But without the measurement between the railing and window, as well as SA and her heights, it’s difficult to determine if she could tumble out.

You can find some of the measurements in the response to the Motion to Dismiss here:

Wiegand Prelim Response to Dismiss 3.pdf

 

[LietKynes]

She was not sitting on any rail after she fell. When she “disappeared” I can only assume SA looked down.

He says he was looking for her on the floor but saw her fall all the way down.

There is a pic from a member that shows exactly what he would have seen.

bbm
Exactly.
He watched her fall. He said this himself.
Horrifying and can certainly show room to believe there was intent.
She was never 'slipping from the railing'.
But would have had to be placed on the window ledge or held outside it to fall , and the slanted lower window pane would've given S.A. a court side seat to view her fall.

 

[Andreee]

American toddler dies after fall from Royal Caribbean cruise ship - CNN

Here is the reference to grandpa losing his balance----

"The grandfather sat the girl in the window and lost his balance, and the girl
fell to her death".

There were only 2 spots where she could potentially 'sit', on the railing and on the opened window frame, the whole thing is unbelievably cray cray!

 

[justbreathe]

bbm
Exactly.
He watched her fall. He said this himself.
Horrifying and can certainly show room to believe there was intent.
She was never 'slipping from the railing'.
But would have had to be placed on the window ledge or held outside it to fall , and the slanted lower window pane would've given S.A. a court side seat to view her fall.

Yes and he would have also been looking at his own feet on the floor right before the bottom pane of glass he would have watched her fall through.

I bet that was pretty horrific.

 

[justbreathe]

This is it, thank you They’ll Get You!

He looked for her on the floor but saw her tumbling to her death.

Or so he says. At least it makes sense.

 

[justice4allnow]

The earliest reports out of Puerto Rico said that she was in the window frame. I've seen one report saying he lost his balance and she fell, and another report saying that she lost her balance and fell.

 

[MassGuy]

The earliest reports out of Puerto Rico said that she was in the window frame. I've seen one report saying he lost his balance and she fell, and another report saying that she lost her balance and fell.

And if he didn’t lift her up, it would be irrelevant who lost their balance.

She shouldn’t have been there, because he shouldn’t have put her there.

 

[MassGuy]

Instead of responding by putting up warning signs that say “Please don’t sit on the railing,” I hope RCC takes a broader approach.

At any location where someone could do something incredibly stupid and kill either themselves or another person, they should just put up a picture of this guy with the words “Don’t be Like Sal.”

 

[justbreathe]

I don’t wanna be an SA apologist haha, but I read something about the family having gone a disney cruise.

Could SA have just been free-wheeling through the ship not paying attention with the *assumption* the set up is the same as Disney, which I think does the whole glass below railings so can’t climbed, no opening more than 4 inches... And he just...screwed up? Thought the wind was coming from above or something?

Still sounds like you would need to be intoxicated in some way to stand there for 30 seconds *trying to touch glass that wasn’t there* and not clue in that was because there was no glass, imo.

 

[MassGuy]

I don’t wanna be an SA apologist haha, but I read something about the family having gone a disney cruise.

Could SA have just been free-wheeling through the ship not paying attention with the *assumption* the set up is the same as Disney, which I think does the whole glass below railings so can’t climbed, no opening more than 4 inches... And he just...screwed up? Thought the wind was coming from above or something?

Still sounds like you would need to be intoxicated in some way to stand there for 30 seconds *trying to touch glass that wasn’t there* and not clue in that was because there was no glass, imo.

And the “intoxicated” thing would really help explain this whole event.

Either this guy is the most clueless, reckless, and entitled person alive, or he was drunk.

It doesn’t make the situation any better, as it’s irresponsible either way you slice it. But atleast we could understand how the hell someone could be this stupid.

 

[Chikkamma]

The earliest reports out of Puerto Rico said that she was in the window frame. I've seen one report saying he lost his balance and she fell, and another report saying that she lost her balance and fell.

The fact that Winkleman’s reenactment included a photo of the actor holding the doll in a standing position on the window ledge makes me think she was indeed put on the ledge at some point and that this can be seen clearly in the HD video. Winkleman’s own re-enactment admits that Chloe was held out (at some point) on the ledge.

 

[justice4allnow]

On July 9 2019 AP reported this from Puerto Rico:
"Police said Monday that Chloe Wiegand died when the young girl's grandfather told officers he lost his grip while holding her outside a window on the Freedom of the Seas. He was identified as Salvatorre Anello, of Valparaiso. In an interview on NBC's TODAY, the family attorney, Michael Winkleman, said the grandfather rather placed Chloe on a ledge and had no idea it was open."
So I do believe that "ledge" was the window ledge.

 

[justice4allnow]

I don’t wanna be an SA apologist haha, but I read something about the family having gone a disney cruise.

Could SA have just been free-wheeling through the ship not paying attention with the *assumption* the set up is the same as Disney, which I think does the whole glass below railings so can’t climbed, no opening more than 4 inches... And he just...screwed up? Thought the wind was coming from above or something?

Still sounds like you would need to be intoxicated in some way to stand there for 30 seconds *trying to touch glass that wasn’t there* and not clue in that was because there was no glass, imo.

But none of that explains why he breached the safety railing with the baby-clearly no one was to go over it, it's there to keep people safely back from the windows.

 

[FactFinder3000]

And the “intoxicated” thing would really help explain this whole event.

Either this guy is the most clueless, reckless, and entitled person alive, or he was drunk.

It doesn’t make the situation any better, as it’s irresponsible either way you slice it. But atleast we could understand how the hell someone could be this stupid.

I've been thinking about his potential drunkeness. One would think that if he was sober he would have submitted to a sobriety test, right?

So what I've been pondering is if his drunkeness led him to miss the fact that it was an open window, isn't he still responsible? In that case Chloe's death would be the direct result of him being her caretaker while drunk. There are plenty of example of people being found guilty of negligent homicide for driving while drunk, but would caregiving while drunk fall under the same kind of analysis?

 

[Chikkamma]

But none of that explains why he breached the safety railing with the baby-clearly no one was to go over it, it's there to keep people safely back from the windows.

And more importantly, none of that explains why he didn’t touch the glass first to make sure it was there before hoisting a little baby up to it. It was his responsibility as a caregiver to check the safety of the surroundings. That’s on him, not the ship.

 

[FactFinder3000]

This is it, thank you They’ll Get You!

He looked for her on the floor but saw her tumbling to her death.

Or so he says. At least it makes sense.

That's interesting. So when he bends over the railing he could have been looking down without poking his head out the window. However, I can't get past how he reaches out. He very clearly reaches out with both arms as he approaches the window. It's a 0:28 in this video. The only possible thing he can be reaching for is the window frame and/or sill. There's nothing else there.

 

[MassGuy]

I've been thinking about his potential drunkeness. One would think that if he was sober he would have submitted to a sobriety test, right?

So what I've been pondering is if his drunkeness led him to miss the fact that it was an open window, isn't he still responsible? In that case Chloe's death would be the direct result of him being her caretaker while drunk. There are plenty of example of people being found guilty of negligent homicide for driving while drunk, but would caregiving while drunk fall under the same kind of analysis?

I don’t think it changes anything, both legally and just in general.

He’s still responsible for her death, sober or not.

The only thing it changes for me, is that I can make more sense of how this could have happened. He wouldn’t be the dumbest man alive, but would still be stunningly irresponsible.

I agree, if he was sober he would have consented to a breathalyzer. Unless he had booze in his cabin, I think purchase records (room key swipes), bartender accounts, witness accounts, and surveillance footage could shed some light.

Prove that, and he’s dead in the water.