Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

[Inthedetails]

I was picturing the same thing. But I think they'd do an autopsy anyway. It's the usual procedure for an unattended death and the obvious cause of death sometimes isn't so obvious. The person might have been shot to disable and then strangled to kill, for instance, or knocked out by a blow to the head and then shot into the body just to make sure they were dead.

I wonder how long it will take to hear something either way.

Good points.

And now that I think about it, even with a gunshot to the head (which is my imagination, not fact!), they would need an autopsy to determine self-inflicted or murder.

It's possible it's a drug overdose or heart attack, etc. as well.

Time will tell.

jmo

 

[carbuff]

For some reason I'm really worried about who this person is and what happened.

 

[JnRyan]

I tend to think that he planned to kill, but maybe he only planned to abduct and rape. Maybe he killed the girls because he wasn't really prepared to manage two victims, and when they tried to get away, he realized that he had lost control. So maybe his previous crimes were abductions and rapes, not murders.

Yes, that is a scenario I considered. And if had to change his pattern, either as a serial rapist or killer, LE probably can't connect to the other cases based on MO alone. Maybe if DNA is found at similar crime in the future LE can make the connection.

 

[TL4S]

bbm
I was thinking about the wording. What, if DC and LE know the suspect, maybe they greeted him with a handshake at the entrance, maybe they heard his voice speaking to them (remember Leazenby and what he said about the voice!!) or they have seen a picture/video of the person, standing there at the entrance on February 13th. Maybe an "official person", maybe a so-called VIP, maybe a "searcher". Someone from a little bit "outside" (not quite "local"), well known via his name or his job or his look (WITHOUT disguise of course).

Do you think, that might have been meant with the wording?

It seems, DC has to remain cryptic, but tries to lead a witness to understand finally, whom they had seen around the MHB area, why and under which circumstances at all and to question themselves, if it still seems to be plausible.

I'm not sure his language is cryptic as much as careful. DC (or any other official speaking publicly about the case) has to choose his words carefully in an effort to protect the case, and I don't think he's too concerned if the public is confused by those statements. Most likely, anyone with truly pertinent information knows they have this information and that's the "one tip" LE is waiting for.

I would not be surprised at all if BG is somebody with which LE has had past interactions. I'm not convinced he's a big player in his community, nor do I think he has a long rap sheet because then LE might recognize him, but maybe on the fringe of the law?

 

[TL4S]

For some reason I'm really worried about who this person is and what happened.

I am, too.

 

[carbuff]

Yes, that is a scenario I considered. And if had to change his pattern, either as a serial rapist or killer, LE probably can't connect to the other cases based on MO alone. Maybe if DNA is found at similar crime in the future LE can make the connection.

If he's a serial rapist, which I think is much more likely than a serial killer*, it's more than possible that his DNA is sitting on shelves in untested rape kits...

(*I think my current theory is that it was an attempted rape that got out of control...but that's this week.)

 

[Mike Britton]

What was there about that sketch that they came up with it so quickly as opposed to the weeks or months for the 2nd sketch? And then LE comes back to it over 2 years later? ISP Superintendent Carter will not reveal why or what prompted them to release that second sketch.

Not to create a snowball of FUD and misinformation about DC's intent regarding the college guy sketch, but it seems as if the answer to the question of how that sketch was rapidly produced could be that it was drawn from a photograph of someone identified in the area of the bridge that day. Pure speculation.

 

[Justice101]

I tend to believe this is not a serial killer. I have no evidence to support that other than serial killers are not that common. However, I believe it is still possible he is a serial killer who has killed before and/or since. If he has abducted and killed single victims his MO is probably different in those cases. IOW, in order to control TWO victims and kill them he had to deviate from his preferred methods and possibly improvise. He may have had the urge to kill and been hunting for a single, isolated victim and finally decided that Abigail and Liberty were the best opportunity he was going to get. And the bridge limited their avenues of escape.

The girls dictated the location of the murders? An interesting scenario I had not considered.

Good thoughts you have! I thought the same thing early on... that actually BG is pretty smart... Smart enough to have a perfect trap set. Deviant mind that thought about this location either way ahead of time.. or is smart enough to think quickly.

Totally in my opinion, but BG knew that nobody was in front of the girls. So he looked behind him on the trail at the north end of the bridge. He could see maybe half a mile back up the trail to where the parking lot/drop off was. He knew it would take 3 or 4 minutes at least for a newly emerging person at the drop off to make it to the bridge where the trail bends..

He walked quickly across the bridge.. .probably turned around and looked back one more time when he was close to the girls. That may have been when the girls were alerted and turned on the video.

This guy may not have a formal education but he is smart in my opinion. "Perfect" place to kill the girls too. Low bowl shaped depression upstream a half a mile from the bridge and inaccessible.

Still hopeful there is an arrest before another girl's murder elsewhere

 

[PezCandy]

As time goes on I’m starting to think that it’s maybe someone who the girls went to school with or a friends older sibling etc... I know, I know, far fetched. But not much else to go on as far as the blurry video, teeny tiny audio, and the conflicting OBG NBG sketches. I’m not really sure what to think cuz my theories are always changing. Even the “scene was physically strange” comment makes me triple think it all cuz that could mean anything. All imo jmo moo speculation all that

 

[tresir2012]

Respectfully snipped by me. Sorry.

I feel the girls were not sexually assaulted, and the case is missing some markers of a serial killer. For the killer, it would have made sense to abduct, kill and hide them. Maybe visit later.

This case has two strange elements in it. One, the person was unafraid of the girls being found, maybe wanted it? It seems that he wanted them to be seen. MOO.

And another thing, I suddenly understood what DC might have meant when he said, “To the killer: I believe you have some conscience left”.

We don’t really know the details of the scene, but from what I have read, there were some clothes in water, but no nudity? (I don’t remember where I have read it, after three years, I think we can mention it).

And to me it indicates that that person, that horrible, cruel assassin, was, maybe, ashamed to look at his own work, the bodies? People were using the word “posed”, maybe the true strangeness was in them being covered as he did not want to see their faces?

And this to me would be “physically strange”. Not a hair indicating an illness. These are clues. Just the fact that the person was a brutal killer, who left the bodies for Delphi to see, and yet was probably ashamed to look at his deed?

I don’t feel he is a serial killer. (A hired assassin, maybe). I think the scene of crime was left as a certain message to someone alive, maybe contained elements of some “language”, but BG did not enjoy looking at it.

Why would LE be interested in the autopsy and DNA of a dead rapist though?

 

[stattlich1]

What, if DC and LE know the suspect,

MOO, I believe they know exactly who the perps are. And I also believe that someone recognizes the BG. AND....I also believe he is hiding in plain sight.

I also believe LE knows the one who knows. This person holds the last piece of the puzzle. The last tip.

Indeed, what LE is asking, is that the one who knows, step up and do the right thing. MOO

 

[tresir2012]

I agree with much of this line of reasoning. He chose the CS beforehand, it can't be seen from the bridge. Line-of-sight the CS would be 1100 feet give or take, say from the NW end of the bridge, but there is no "line-of-sight", the CS is obscured from virtually any angle when looking in its general direction, from the bridge.

My take on them being seen, let's say before the murders, would have been when they crossed the creek. The view from the nearby house is a clear line-of-sight, but nobody was home that day. I think BG took a lot of what he observed in the gorge before the murders into account when planning how he would attack someone or some people, and where he would lead them to.

JMO

The CS was strange, peculiar in some way, BG had to know that noone was home at the property and that there was no working camera. So this must point to him directing them across the creek rather than the girls randomly running across surely? For him to know about the property he had to be local, he had to know Logan's property and how to leave the crime scene without going back across the bridge. AJMO.

 

[tresir2012]

Do we know that it is curly reddish?

I imagine him having brown hair; he could have been a redhead in younger life, but currently it feels brown to me.

The ISP description is reddish brown and NBG shows curly hair, so yes we do know that.

 

[tresir2012]

Since day 1 everyone has assumed that BG was unknown to the other people on the trails that may have seen him. What if that is wrong? What if he were well known by some that may have seen him, is known by the police to have been on the trails that day, but they just cant seem to link him directly to the crime. They have DNA but if it was found on say a water bottle that he says he must have dropped several weeks before how could they prove it was from that day?

What if BG did not arrive to the trail on his own but with a friend or a group of people but he got separated through an altercation or by accident and then was just there when the girls arrived and decided to follow at a distance. So an opportunistic crime rather than planned. This could be why LE think someone else knows and can tip him. MOO.

 

[tresir2012]

What do you hear when you listen to what he says?

"In his first day" indicates it could be someone just out of jail or just bailed or on parole. That is my first thought.

 

[Falling Down]

I tend to believe this is not a serial killer. I have no evidence to support that other than serial killers are not that common. However, I believe it is still possible he is a serial killer who has killed before and/or since. If he has abducted and killed single victims his MO is probably different in those cases. IOW, in order to control TWO victims and kill them he had to deviate from his preferred methods and possibly improvise. He may have had the urge to kill and been hunting for a single, isolated victim and finally decided that Abigail and Liberty were the best opportunity he was going to get. And the bridge limited their avenues of escape.

The girls dictated the location of the murders? An interesting scenario I had not considered.

My long-winded theory up thread has elements which jive with some of your post.

I think he saw them dropped off, and figured that if he was able to pull off what he set out to do that day, he would hit the jackpot with not one, but two murders. Then there's the added intrigue and element of them not being found until after noon the next day.

My point is I agree that he had to "switch gears", as I like to say, and improvise on the fly.

Great post.

JMO

 

[tresir2012]

If he says even on his first day it could imply that someone had a first day there. When I think of first day I think first day of a job.
I agree it is so mumbled it's difficult to make sense of any of it.

Ok another thought, if it was his first day then he would be standing looking at the sign. Otherwise you would not be looking at that sign because you would know it. A local would not stand and look at the sign. Another thought I had is that LE should do a timed reconstruction of all the 20-30 people there that day including where "BG" was seen, to check out everybodies timelines, locations and stories and where their paths may have crossed.

 

[tresir2012]

Good observations and thinking outside the box. While there could be further evidence compelling LE to keep it on the radar, the car that's always discussed and debated ad nauseam is distracting to the case, MOO. The offender would have been, and probably was, more effective on foot. Given his knowledge that RL was not home, and his familiarity with Deer Creek, it's not unreasonable to suggest his family home is closer to the high bridge than people have been willing to consider.

Who first saw Libby's SC of Abbey on the Bridge at 2.07 p.m. why had nobody seen that seemingly before 9 p.m. that evening. Having seen that and knowing they were missing, why didn't the search begin immediately from the end of the bridge where Libby's pic of Abby was showing them leading too. Who first saw the pic of Abby on SC and when? Was the murderer already in the vicinity and saw it upload and head straight to the south end of the bridge. SC is instant right? All of Libby's SC contacts would have seen it right away surely. Was there anyone in at the house at the end there when searching began?

 

[tresir2012]

I was picturing the same thing. But I think they'd do an autopsy anyway. It's the usual procedure for an unattended death and the obvious cause of death sometimes isn't so obvious. The person might have been shot to disable and then strangled to kill, for instance, or knocked out by a blow to the head and then shot into the body just to make sure they were dead.

I wonder how long it will take to hear something either way.

Drug deal gone wrong?

 

[Inthedetails]

MOO, I believe they know exactly who the perps are. And I also believe that someone recognizes the BG. AND....I also believe he is hiding in plain sight.

I also believe LE knows the one who knows. This person holds the last piece of the puzzle. The last tip.

Indeed, what LE is asking, is that the one who knows, step up and do the right thing. MOO

I kinda think LE has a strong suspicion too, but don't have enough to charge and convict. What will it take to push it over??

I'm guessing there isn't DNA at the scene because there are ways to get DNA from a suspect (hand him a bottle of water, etc.).

I know, I don't want to open up the whole case again for discussion.....just wish we had insights in hindsight that would solve the case.

jmo