IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #7

[Seattle1]

On July 12 or date of the article, I don’t think MW had received the video.

I believe the allegation in the complaint was video from 12 additional cameras omitted.

I think the plaintiffs lost their argument that video speed was edited when they waived on the video motion and objected after the fact.

Moo

 

[Seattle1]

I understood the OP was referring to attorney, MW, not the GF. Jmo

Thanks @needsaki

My question would be the same as MW already filed wrongful death suit. Don’t understand what other suit he could file??

 

[mheido67]

Regarding the colorblind issue;

Say SA was legally blind. Not completely blind, just with limited enough vision to be declared legally blind. He and the rest of the W family get on board FotS and he does exactly the same thing he did with CW. He lifts her up to bang on the glass he thinks is there and she falls because there isn’t glass there. Would anyone believe that RCCL had any liability? Would anyone argue that RCCL had an obligation to warn SA of the open window? Of course not. If he knew he had a visual impairment it would be incumbent on him, or CW’s guardians, to ensure that he didn’t place himself or CW in an open and obviously dangerous situation. How is that any different if he knows he is colorblind?

 

[JulieBEMT]

Thanks @needsaki

My question would be the same as MW already filed wrongful death suit. Don’t understand what other suit he could file??

They are not referring to the CW case. They are saying that MW must be excited about all of the people on the ships quarantined in Asia because they can bring him more cases/suits.

 

[In vino veritas]

To all you actual legal eagles on WS: do the plaintiffs now have an opportunity to respond to RCL’s amended motion? Or can the judge go ahead and dismiss without further input from the plaintiff?

 

[Fidobell]

I thought this was odd too! You're holding a baby near what is clearly an open window (forget the whole "I thought the window was closed" argument). You don't have a close enough grip on her to grab her when she starts to fall and your reflexes are so slow you can't reach out lightning fast to grab her. I don't see ANY movement on SA's part that indicates any type of last minute, arms outstretched, attempt to grab CW. No matter how futile, how out of your reach she is... don't you at least try?? It's like he let's go, she falls forward and he falls backwards! In the interview he says "I watched her fall the whole way down." How? Not out the window. And I don't think the lower window would have had the angle to see the dock, I could be wrong about that. But at least from the video it appears he immediately falls to the ground and I'm not connecting how he could also watch her fall. How do you let go of your granddaughter and your first instinct is to fall backwards, not lean forwards with arms outstretched, even if she's already too far away? I've dropped sunglasses, drinks, lots of things other than a HUMAN BEING and my natural reaction is to reach my hand out to try to catch it, not shrink away. So odd!

This is something that never occurred to me and you are right . Instinct would have you grabbing at thin air but thats not what we see by SA s actions .

 

[neesaki]

To all you actual legal eagles on WS: do the plaintiffs now have an opportunity to respond to RCL’s amended motion? Or can the judge go ahead and dismiss without further input from the plaintiff?

I would really like an answer to this as well. Thank you very much for bringing it up, In Vino!

 

[TDoc72]

Both SA & CE were undoubtedly slippery from sweat so to hold on to a squirmy 20+ pound toddler while leaning forward for nearly a minute on any planet is reckless endangerment.
.

Snipped and bolded by me
Besides sweat, it could also be water from playing at the splash pad or sunscreen. All could be slippery.

 

[HRH Phoebe Cat]

I thought this was odd too! You're holding a baby near what is clearly an open window (forget the whole "I thought the window was closed" argument). You don't have a close enough grip on her to grab her when she starts to fall and your reflexes are so slow you can't reach out lightning fast to grab her. I don't see ANY movement on SA's part that indicates any type of last minute, arms outstretched, attempt to grab CW. No matter how futile, how out of your reach she is... don't you at least try?? It's like he let's go, she falls forward and he falls backwards! In the interview he says "I watched her fall the whole way down." How? Not out the window. And I don't think the lower window would have had the angle to see the dock, I could be wrong about that. But at least from the video it appears he immediately falls to the ground and I'm not connecting how he could also watch her fall. How do you let go of your granddaughter and your first instinct is to fall backwards, not lean forwards with arms outstretched, even if she's already too far away? I've dropped sunglasses, drinks, lots of things other than a HUMAN BEING and my natural reaction is to reach my hand out to try to catch it, not shrink away. So odd!

I’ve been going through the links in the media thread (a million thanks @oviedo ).

From this link https://nypost.com/2019/11/22/video...grandfather-thought-window-was-closed-lawyer/
A snipped quote of Winkleman: “He thought this window was closed … this is a wall of windows with one random window that was open. The whole thing happens in less than 30 seconds. And the amount of time he has her on the railing is about five seconds. So all this happens like that.”

So what I am wondering is if external camera footage is available would it show Chloe falling almost immediately (“about five seconds”) and, thus, demonstrating SA waited a significantly longer period of before falling to floor, etc? Just my own thoughts based on direct quote of Winkleman and, as many have pointed out, SA would not have been able to see the fall from the window at floor level.

'I saw her fall': Grandfather describes harrowing moment he dropped granddaughter to her death
SA clearly states he saw the entire fall.

 

[HRH Phoebe Cat]

From this link 'We all sit here broken': Family of girl who fell to her death prepares for court battle

At 5:00 SA makes a very brief statement referencing a sheet of paper. Several things stood out to me:
1) SA does not mention Chloe by name or even make a reference to her.
2) SA does not mention Chloe and how much he misses her.
3) SA does not clearly state anything such as “it was an accident.”

Later during the Q&A period, a reporter specifically asks if the parents have seen the video (15:30). KSW says to MW that she does not want to answer. MW states “they don’t want to see the video.” That is not the same as a clear and direct, “No, they have not watched the video.”

Apologies if these points have already been discussed, but they just really stood out to me looking at these links again.

 

[mheido67]

To all you actual legal eagles on WS: do the plaintiffs now have an opportunity to respond to RCL’s amended motion? Or can the judge go ahead and dismiss without further input from the plaintiff?

Not a lawyer but I have to think that plaintiffs would have the opportunity to reply again to the new motion. Almost with 100% certainty.

 

[mheido67]

I’ve been going through the links in the media thread (a million thanks @oviedo ).

From this link https://nypost.com/2019/11/22/video...grandfather-thought-window-was-closed-lawyer/
A snipped quote of Winkleman: “He thought this window was closed … this is a wall of windows with one random window that was open. The whole thing happens in less than 30 seconds. And the amount of time he has her on the railing is about five seconds. So all this happens like that.”

So what I am wondering is if external camera footage is available would it show Chloe falling almost immediately (“about five seconds”) and, thus, demonstrating SA waited a significantly longer period of before falling to floor, etc? Just my own thoughts based on direct quote of Winkleman and, as many have pointed out, SA would not have been able to see the fall from the window at floor level.

'I saw her fall': Grandfather describes harrowing moment he dropped granddaughter to her death
SA clearly states he saw the entire fall.

That entire quote from MW is filled with inaccuracies. 1) As is clearly obvious in the cctv footage it was not a random window, every other window in the second row is operable. 2) Also clearly visible that the very next operable window to the right was also open. 3) The cctv footage proves the whole thing did not happen in less than 30 seconds. 4) The video from behind clearly shows CW was on the railing for much longer than 5 seconds.

The behind video clearly shows the moment CW moves forward, whether still in the grip of SA or already loose from it, and that occurs only seconds before he falls to the deck. So I think the suggestion that he stood there for any longer than the 3 seconds it would have taken for her to fall is probably not accurate. A person leaning over the wood railing would definitely be able to see the whole way down to the pier. There are photos that show this. I believe what SA described was looking down for her thinking she had fallen between the glass and the railing and then realizing she was outside when he saw her falling to the pier. Remember, this all happened in just 3 seconds from the time she left his grip. Probably seemed like longer to SA. Especially in retrospect as it replayed in his mind.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

This is something that never occurred to me and you are right . Instinct would have you grabbing at thin air but thats not what we see by SA s actions .

Instinct would have had someone else watch CW. Instinct would not be supporting who caused the death of your precious child, ESPECIALLY if the "accident" was so senseless and avoidable. JMOO.

 

[HRH Phoebe Cat]

That entire quote from MW is filled with inaccuracies. 1) As is clearly obvious in the cctv footage it was not a random window, every other window in the second row is operable. 2) Also clearly visible that the very next operable window to the right was also open. 3) The cctv footage proves the whole thing did not happen in less than 30 seconds. 4) The video from behind clearly shows CW was on the railing for much longer than 5 seconds.

The behind video clearly shows the moment CW moves forward, whether still in the grip of SA or already loose from it, and that occurs only seconds before he falls to the deck. So I think the suggestion that he stood there for any longer than the 3 seconds it would have taken for her to fall is probably not accurate. A person leaning over the wood railing would definitely be able to see the whole way down to the pier. There are photos that show this. I believe what SA described was looking down for her thinking she had fallen between the glass and the railing and then realizing she was outside when he saw her falling to the pier. Remember, this all happened in just 3 seconds from the time she left his grip. Probably seemed like longer to SA. Especially in retrospect as it replayed in his mind.

Thank you for your thoughtful response.
I must admit it wasn’t after I had posted that I remembered the witnesses and “act of games.” However, I cannot help but being quite interested in the time lapse between when little Chloe did fall and SA’s dramatic collapse on the floor.
In the side view SA’s right arm/hand movements bother me.
Hoping there is other/external camera footage that would help clarify this question.

 

[Safetybug]

From this link 'We all sit here broken': Family of girl who fell to her death prepares for court battle

At 5:00 SA makes a very brief statement referencing a sheet of paper. Several things stood out to me:
1) SA does not mention Chloe by name or even make a reference to her.
2) SA does not mention Chloe and how much he misses her.
3) SA does not clearly state anything such as “it was an accident.”

Later during the Q&A period, a reporter specifically asks if the parents have seen the video (15:30). KSW says to MW that she does not want to answer. MW states “they don’t want to see the video.” That is not the same as a clear and direct, “No, they have not watched the video.”

Apologies if these points have already been discussed, but they just really stood out to me looking at these links again.

@HRH Phoebe Cat ~ thanks for sharing link and expounding bcuz I hadn’t ever seen that 17 minute Dec 11 press conference. Very enlightening as I had only read excerpts here and there.

The part that jumped out at me was where MW describes SA during those final 15 or so minutes as being a doting grandfather, helicopter grandparenting etc giving exactly the kind of care the lawyer expects his own grandparents would give! Really?!?

So apparently nobody on the panel sees the elephant in the room which is SA’s lifting her 4 feet off the ground and doing a mostly one handed balancing act on railing that is forbidden to be sat or stood on. I think that behind closed doors they really do blame him but hey, he is financially broke and there’s no “unlimited” financial pay out there.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

@HRH Phoebe Cat ~ thanks for sharing link and expounding bcuz I hadn’t ever seen that 17 minute Dec 11 press conference. Very enlightening as I had only read excepts here and there.

The part that jumped out at me was where MW describes SA during those final 15 or so minutes as being a doting grandfather, helicopter grandparenting etc giving exactly the kind of care the lawyer expects his own grandparents would give! Really?!?

So apparently nobody on the panel sees the elephant in the room which is SA’s lifting her 4 feet off the ground and doing a mostly one handed balancing act on railing that is forbidden to be sat or stood on. I think that behind closed doors they really do blame him but hey, he is financially broke and there’s no “unlimited” financial pay out there.

Also, AFAIK, helicopter parents/grandparents do not let toddlers run SO FAR ahead of them as SA did in that video. That visual really stood out to me. But then I thought, "well, he knows what's going to happens, so he really does not care about her safety at that point"...

 

[mheido67]

Thank you for your thoughtful response.
I must admit it wasn’t after I had posted that I remembered the witnesses and “act of games.” However, I cannot help but being quite interested in the time lapse between when little Chloe did fall and SA’s dramatic collapse on the floor.
In the side view SA’s right arm/hand movements bother me.
Hoping there is other/external camera footage that would help clarify this question.

RCCL has already stated in there court filings that only the two cameras from which the footage was leaked captured any of the events involved in CW's death. I highly doubt they would do so if there was additional footage. Unless there is footage from some other source which I find doubtful seeing as no one has made any mention of any third party footage to date.

 

[Safetybug]

RCCL has already stated in there court filings that only the two cameras from which the footage was leaked captured any of the events involved in CW's death. I highly doubt they would do so if there was additional footage. Unless there is footage from some other source which I find doubtful seeing as no one has made any mention of any third party footage to date.

Agreed; Maybe I’m jaded ~ too often lawyers gloss over/omit facts, confabulate their spin and repeat it often with pseudo conviction into a “false narrative” So for MW to claim PR LE embraces a false narrative makes my skin burn

 

[Kittybunny]

Just checking in to see if the insanity has worn off yet and SA and his supporters have come to their senses and taken a plea. I see the answer, is no, no they have not.

 

[katydid23]

There would not be because their agrument hinges on the supposed hidden danger that openings in what appeared to be a 'solid wall of glass' presented. Climbing on or leaning over a balcony railing presents a clear and obvious danger that is readily apparent to any reasonable person. This case is going to come down to whether a jury believes SA could have been in front of that open window as long as he was and NOT observed that the window was in fact open. EDIT: Or rather that a reasonable person could have done so.

As to the bolded, I agree. I would add that it will also come down to whether a reasonable person would ever put 18 month 0ld child up over the guard rail, and prop her up into a narrow window ledge, and hold her with one arm, when you have not even checked to see if there was glass yet.