Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom, stepfather found* #15

[KonaHonu]

Curious, White Mountains, Show Low or maybe farther east, near the archeological area?

Southern and that is all I will say

 

[WhereIsWaldo]

The Woodcock case might be superfluous at this stage

I agree, unfortunately, with regard to the state of Idaho and potential custody issues, with the missing children. It doesn’t mean I give up hope. But, with regard to the charge of Conspiracy to Commit Homicide, for both Lori Vallow Daybell and Chad Daybell, and their former (now dead) spouses, respectively, as residents of Arizona, Idaho and Hawai’i, lawyer up.

 

[WhereIsWaldo]

It's all one big metropolitan area - Phoenix, Tempe, Mesa, Gilbert, Chandler, Scottsdale, Queen Creek, San Tan Valley but there are many different LE jurisdictions, multiple counties, etc. Google is helpful for specifics you might be looking for. In general, after a few deaths in the 70s when LE from one jurisdiction did not respond a few feet within another jurisdiction, Arizona has weak jurisdiction for emergency response. Near boundaries, everyone will respond and questions about payment etc. are asked later.

Those places are all big cities with excellent EMS. I had EMS training and certification in Arizona. Arizona is above average nationally in its EMS system. I don't think there are any systematic deficiencies in the fire, LE or EMS systems in major cities in Arizona that are at play here. The 911 calls we've heard have all been very prompt, professional, and appropriate.

My one criticism in everything I've heard would be the Chandler PD telling Alex to stop CPR and leave the house. While that may be how they are trained, you NEVER stop CPR until a physician declares death or you are physically unable to continue. Stopping CPR is literally causing death because you are stopping the heart from beating which defines death. In my training (in Arizona) I was taught that, once started, you do not stop treatment even if ordered by a police officer. You ask the officer what the threat is and advise him that you are solely responsible for your patient and he cannot lawfully direct your treatment unless he has a higher level of EMS certification. If he tells you to stop treatment he is assuming responsibility for any outcome. My instructor was a paramedic and police officer and his comment was that lifesaving measures trump police actions and that many cops are ignorant of that fact so you have to remind them.

There is a protocol at scenes. Police are responsible for scene safety and then their job is to stay out of the way while EMS and fire do their job. That is mostly what we saw, but IMO, the order to AC to stop CPR on CV was not consistent with Arizona law. If CV bled out peripherally the cop could be guilty of manslaughter. If the bullet went through his heart or aorta there was never any hope. So the autopsy should reveal that. Given lack of blood on AC though I'm betting on internal bleeding.

If you start paying attention at accident scenes you will notice that ambulances are always parked tail in, pointed the the hospital they are headed toward, fire engines park skew to the road, and police are farther out, directing traffic. There are variations depending on the specific incident and local issues.

My one criticism in everything I've heard would be the Chandler PD telling Alex to stop CPR and leave the house. While that may be how they are trained, you NEVER stop CPR until a physician declares death or you are physically unable to continue.

From my experience and background, working with a paramedic, not EMT, you work a patient for a minimum of 20 minutes, trying to resuscitate. I thought this to be standard protocol for EMS.

 

[KonaHonu]

The felony would be committed when she refused to surrender the kids when the state tries to collect them. At that point she would be arrested

Ok, but at what point is the felony committed? Is it when the judge issues the custody order? Is it when she if served? Is it X days after service?

Because I'm not seeing a lot of due process protections here

 

[Jethro4WS]

Are you saying that if the state takes custody Lori is instantly a felon? No service or notice required? Because that sounds blatantly unconstitutional to me. My only point was that due process dictates that the state would need to give some reasonable notice to Lori if it takes custody before a felony charge could be entered.

I'd not that affirmative defense 2(a) might be a slam dunk if Lori knows of a threat against the kids and is protecing them.

Oh no, she would get notice of any adverse action, with a reasonable amount of time to produce the children. Only after that reasonable time has expired would it be possible to obtain an arrest warrant. Considering how long this is going on it is possible that an attorney for Lori is litigating the case with the State but it may also simply be the case that the State has not yet pursued a custody action in the hopes that pressure on Lori may cause her to reveal where the children are or reveal someone else that knows where they are (likely by communicating with them). I think all of this waiting and the pressure games via the media are a waste of time and the only thing that will motivate Lori is to arrest her.

When it comes to Affirmative Defenses you can't just claim it - you have to prove it. The State carries no burden to disprove any or all affirmative defenses as the burden of proof rests with the defendant when they raise any affirmative defense(s) and a judge or jury will decide whether or not an affirmative defense was proven and if not then whether the State proved all of the statutory elements of the crime.

 

[KonaHonu]

From my experience and background, working with a paramedic, not EMT, you work a patient for a minimum of 20 minutes, trying to resuscitate. I thought this to be standard protocol for EMS.

You work until you cannot. Then you get therapy for failing to be able to save. It's a pretty serious thing.

While not in an EMS situation, I've had to stand up to a cop with a gun pointed at me and refused his idiotic order when he directed me to do something in a work situation that would have resulted in tens of thousands of dollars in damage. It was a university cop so he knew I was right and we talked things out.

 

[KonaHonu]

Oh no, she would get notice of any adverse action, with a reasonable amount of time to produce the children. Only after that reasonable time has expired would it be possible to obtain an arrest warrant. Considering how long this is going on it is possible that an attorney for Lori is litigating the case with the State but it may also simply be the case that the State has not yet pursued a custody action in the hopes that pressure on Lori may cause her to reveal where the children are or reveal someone else that knows where they are (likely by communicating with them). I think all of this waiting and the pressure games via the media are a waste of time and the only thing that will motivate Lori is to arrest her.

When it comes to Affirmative Defenses you can't just claim it - you have to prove it. The State carries no burden to disprove any or all affirmative defenses as the burden of proof rests with the defendant when they raise any affirmative defense(s) and a judge or jury will decide whether or not an affirmative defense was proven and if not then whether the State proved all of the statutory elements of the crime.

Ok. It sounds like we are on the same page.

Given their luxury lifestyle in Kauai, I don't think the state's pressure is effective. IMO the focus should be on pressuring her to reveal the location of the children by getting her in a cold cell in Idaho.

 

[PinkPrincessPoop]

Does anyone know where we can watch the Dateline episode? I check the NBC page but they don't have it up yet.

Thanks

It is not up anywhere. I had my fiancé spend an hour tonight looking for it available anywhere and he couldn't find it.

 

[KonaHonu]

From my experience and background, working with a paramedic, not EMT, you work a patient for a minimum of 20 minutes, trying to resuscitate. I thought this to be standard protocol for EMS.

You never give up. You continue CPR as long as you can. It is possible that a specific ambulance company had a 20 minute rule. I don't doubt that, and it would be reasonable. But my training was that you treat as best you can until you are too exhausted to treat or someone with more advanced training takes over care. You can ignore patients with obvious signs of death which are specific and trained, for example, decapitation or burned beyond recognition.

 

[KonaHonu]

Does anyone know where we can watch the Dateline episode? I check the NBC page but they don't have it up yet.

Thanks

I think they will have it up after about a week. I want to see it too!

 

[WhereIsWaldo]

From my experience and background, working with a paramedic, not EMT, you work a patient for a minimum of 20 minutes, trying to resuscitate. I thought this to be standard protocol for EMS.

You work until you cannot. Then you get therapy for failing to be able to save. It's a pretty serious thing.

While not in an EMS situation, I've had to stand up to a cop with a gun pointed at me and refused his idiotic order when he directed me to do something in a work situation that would have resulted in tens of thousands of dollars in damage. It was a university cop so he knew I was right and we talked things out.

This is the protocol, I don’t understand, it is well-known for anyone working in EMS. If I am wrong, please correct me?

 

[mrjitty]

Oh no, she would get notice of any adverse action, with a reasonable amount of time to produce the children. Only after that reasonable time has expired would it be possible to obtain an arrest warrant.

In this hypothetical she commits the felony when she first commits the actus reus described in the statute i.e. obstructs the states efforts to take custody

Given the children are not with her, I suspect the Judge's orders would require her to immediately divulge the location of the children so that the state can pick them up. My guess is the time limit would be short - like 24 hrs to make arrangements.

If she fails to do so, then she commits a felony for which she can be arrested.

 

[mrjitty]

Ok, but at what point is the felony committed? Is it when the judge issues the custody order? Is it when she if served? Is it X days after service?

Because I'm not seeing a lot of due process protections here

You don't generally get due process protections before you commit a crime.

If you commit the crime as described in the law books, you commit it.

LV can avoid committing the crime by not attempting to obstruct the state's efforts to take custody. She does not require a lengthy notice of the same, when she is a party to the very same proceedings in the Idaho Court, and where she of course has received the benefits of due process.

As far as I can see, if LE turn up at her door with a copy of the court order, she must immediately comply, or she commits the felony.

 

[WhereIsWaldo]

You never give up. You continue CPR as long as you can. It is possible that a specific ambulance company had a 20 minute rule. I don't doubt that, and it would be reasonable. But my training was that you treat as best you can until you are too exhausted to treat or someone with more advanced training takes over care. You can ignore patients with obvious signs of death which are specific and trained, for example, decapitation or burned beyond recognition.

There will always be situations, that you cannot fix or help. I understand it is a difficult profession, there is only so much you can do to save a life.

 

[ReadyorNot]

From my experience and background, working with a paramedic, not EMT, you work a patient for a minimum of 20 minutes, trying to resuscitate. I thought this to be standard protocol for EMS.

You are under no obligation to start CPR but it is actually the law in some states that you cannot stop until relieved by another once you do or you are not protected by Good Samaritan laws.

 

[WhereIsWaldo]

You are under no obligation to start CPR but it is actually the law in some states that you cannot stop until relieved by another once you do.

I guess it depends on the state or jurisdiction, interesting to know.

 

[tresir2012]

Here's the dynamic I think is at play in L&C's relationship. The two fell in love/lust over a 1-2 year period. Lori was infatuated by Chad's books and ideas. Chad was infatuated by Lori in more carnal ways, but also she stroked his ego by believing in his ideas. They may or may not have done anything physically or even talked about a future. Then Charles dies, planned or not. (I tend to think planned by AC and L). Lori tells Chad she did her part so they can be together, makes him an accessory after the fact to murder. Then she shows up in his town. She probably tells him he better grow a pair or else. Then things start happening. Tammy is attacked with a (paintball?) gun. Chad freaks and sends her to her parents to protect her. (I should check the timeline on that). Then Tammy dies. Lori tells him she fixed his problem. (Because I don't think Chad had the guts to kill Tammy. Somehow Lori arranged it) He better follow through on their plans. Honestly, he may not have even known about the kids until they were already gone.

I'm not saying Chad is innocent. I'm only saying that he is now stuck between a rock and a hard place and his only real option is to go along with everything.

The visit to parents was before the gun incident lending weight to the possibility he knew she was going to be killed. So he didn't send her away for protection. Of course he did say to a friend that he was still having visions of her death only three weeks before she died.

From the timeline:-

4 Oct 2019 - Tammy Daybell visits her parents in Springville, UT about 15 days before she died; She was healthy and doing Zumba and a clogging class according to her dad.

9 Oct 2019 - Tammy has an encounter with a masked man with a gun outside her ID home which she contacted the police about.

Tammy died on the 19th.

 

[tresir2012]

I didn’t say they were afraid of a camera crew , I said it may have stopped them from boarding the shuttle. I heard a rumor today they are now staying at the Marriott. The only hotel on the island with a beach. I just hope they don’t hire a private charter and book it out of there. IMO.

Why are they in hotels now? What happened to the condo?

I wonder if the hotels are giving them free accommodation due to the publicity. Is that likely?

 

[lindylou]

Why would they not be arrested by now?

 

[Tortoise]

My one criticism in everything I've heard would be the Chandler PD telling Alex to stop CPR and leave the house. While that may be how they are trained, you NEVER stop CPR until a physician declares death or you are physically unable to continue. <rsbm> My instructor was a paramedic and police officer and his comment was that lifesaving measures trump police actions and that many cops are ignorant of that fact so you have to remind them.

There is a protocol at scenes. Police are responsible for scene safety and then their job is to stay out of the way while EMS and fire do their job. That is mostly what we saw, but IMO, the order to AC to stop CPR on CV was not consistent with Arizona law. If CV bled out peripherally the cop could be guilty of manslaughter. If the bullet went through his heart or aorta there was never any hope. So the autopsy should reveal that. Given lack of blood on AC though I'm betting on internal bleeding.

rsbm

IMO I don't think EMS should enter the scene of a shooting until they know it is safe to do so. I think it was a reasonable call to get the gunman out first and check the house over before allowing them in, or you could be sending them in to a hostage type situation and risking the lives of EMS personnel and anyone else still inside.

In regards to your last sentence it was not internal bleeding. One police report states "the large pool of blood that had formed underneath Vallow's body when his body was manipulated" ID - ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *MEDIA MAPS TIMELINE* NO DISCUSSION