Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

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No it's not said:
After listening to part 5 - "Signature" - of the HLN podcast and with Tricia giving us permission to discuss it (Thank you!) , we can go back to the drawing board. Quite some more info in the podcast!
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That podcast is fascinating! There is more information (possibly inadvertently) released in that podcast than there has been in a long long time. Odd crime scene... lots of physical evidence there... at least 2 or 3 signatures? There is no reason all this info (and more) couldn't have been officially released from the get-go. If I have to listen to Doug Carter's nonsense much more I'm going to have to quit following this case. :confused:
 
tresir2012 said:
Going by the case in Colorado that had similarities, I believe they must have shared some of the specifics eg. weapon, how the bodies were left or hidden, time of day of attack, near a creek and trail system etc.
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Now that we know about 'signatures' why did LE go out there? If the CO crimes did not have the same signatures, maybe they were just trying to cover all the bases?
 
Falcon500 said:
Serial killer. Also killed the girls from Iowa. May have killed in between these two cases a thousand miles away. Once he’s identified it’ll be someone you’ve never heard of.
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@Falcon500 your post got me thinking of the SK possibility seriously for the first time in two years. After today’s DTH podcast, I think you are 100% correct. You have a great presence of mind. Thank you.
I am now currently working on a theory that BG has to be a either an Andersons Inc employee or a trucker that delivered to both Andersons Inc and Indiana packers. He knew how to get in and out of the area so well. And I think he delivered to Evansdale Iowa too and is connected to those murders too. Could you please give me your opinion on something? Is it possible that LE is already working on the same theory? Are they looking at all the employees of Anderson Inc or trucking company employees that delivered there in the past 10 years? I’m still convinced that BG knew the area from before the Hoosier Highway construction.
 
layer said:
That podcast is fascinating! There is more information (possibly inadvertently) released in that podcast than there has been in a long long time. Odd crime scene... lots of physical evidence there... at least 2 or 3 signatures? There is no reason all this info (and more) couldn't have been officially released from the get-go. If I have to listen to Doug Carter's nonsense much more I'm going to have to quit following this case. :confused:
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It is a very interesting podcast. After listening to the segment it did give me a feeling that we are dealing with a serial killer and probably there is some issue with the DNA evidence found at the crime scene. The odd crime scene comment is what is interesting. What could be so odd and stand out in a crime scene?
 
Serdavc said:
@Falcon500 your post got me thinking of the SK possibility seriously for the first time in two years. After today’s DTH podcast, I think you are 100% correct. You have a great presence of mind. Thank you.
I am now currently working on a theory that BG has to be a either an Andersons Inc employee or a trucker that delivered to both Andersons Inc and Indiana packers. He knew how to get in and out of the area so well. And I think he delivered to Evansdale Iowa too and is connected to those murders too. Could you please give me your opinion on something? Is it possible that LE is already working on the same theory? Are they looking at all the employees of Anderson Inc or trucking company employees that delivered there in the past 10 years? I’m still convinced that BG knew the area from before the Hoosier Highway construction.
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If you believe BG also killed Lyric and Lizzie: Do you think that he is deliberately seeking out pairs of victims? Do you think Lyric and Lizzie were his first murder victims? Their younger age would have made them easier victims than Abby and Libby. Also, Lyric and Lizzie were left in a location where they wouldn't be found easily; he didn't make the same effort with Abby and Libby. Was that just because they were bigger and heavier, or was it because he was more complacent by the time he killed Abby and Libby?
 
Ozoner said:
If you believe BG also killed Lyric and Lizzie: Do you think that he is deliberately seeking out pairs of victims? Do you think Lyric and Lizzie were his first murder victims? Their younger age would have made them easier victims than Abby and Libby. Also, Lyric and Lizzie were left in a location where they wouldn't be found easily; he didn't make the same effort with Abby and Libby. Was that just because they were bigger and heavier, or was it because he was more complacent by the time he killed Abby and Libby?
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@Ozoner Not sure if you wanted my opinion or Falcon’s. But if you are asking me: Yes, I think pairs is BG’s goal if he can find them. I’m not sure if Lyric and Lizzie were his first murders but I do think he will have a history of escalation, for example: he will have a history of SA with children. I spent too much time researching local RSO’s. SK was just just too out of my realm of possibility considering the location. But SK seems possible now. I think he was hunting the bridge area that day and those poor girls fell into his trap. I think he was able to abduct Lizzie and Lyric with a ruse and that is why he was able to move them to a different location than the abduction area. He may have wanted to do the same to Abby and Libby (abduction, assault, move to different location) but realized he wasn’t able to control them and that’s why they were murdered where they were found.
Personal side note:
I don’t want to wait for another murder with similar signatures before BG is found, I want justice for Libby and Abby and Lyric and Lizzie Now! Let Today be the Day.
 
Serdavc said:
@Ozoner Not sure if you wanted my opinion or Falcon’s. But if you are asking me: Yes, I think pairs is BG’s goal if he can find them. I’m not sure if Lyric and Lizzie were his first murders but I do think he will have a history of escalation, for example: he will have a history of SA with children. I spent too much time researching local RSO’s. SK was just just too out of my realm of possibility considering the location. But SK seems possible now. I think he was hunting the bridge area that day and those poor girls fell into his trap. I think he was able to abduct Lizzie and Lyric with a ruse and that is why he was able to move them to a different location than the abduction area. He may have wanted to do the same to Abby and Libby (abduction, assault, move to different location) but realized he wasn’t able to control them and that’s why they were murdered where they were found.
Personal side note:
I don’t want to wait for another murder with similar signatures before BG is found, I want justice for Libby and Abby and Lyric and Lizzie Now! Let Today be the Day.
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Thanks. (I was seeking your opinion.)
 
curiousgene said:
I also found it a little confusing on the cell phone tower records as he did not clarify. I think they were probably not able to get a search warrant on the records of whose phones were pinging from the tower. If LE can present a suspect or POI they may be able to get a search warrant to find if his particular phone was pinging off from that tower but to find out whose phone(s) was pinging off that particular tower is too many people to justify probable cause and the Judge might think it violates the privacy laws of the general public. MOO
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That's the feeling I was left with as well, and it's quite disconcerting. I obviously do not have a good grasp of what constitutes probable cause. Maybe they are waiting on that one tip that will allow them to have probable cause to get the search warrant....
 
holtzmann said:
I mean, the answer is probably as simple as police needed to get his permission for a search of his property before they could step onto it, regardless of whether or not they organized the search for that evening or the next day. He was home, he was accessible. He might not have been the next morning when searching resumed. Occam's razor.

I have seen back and forth reports on whether or not his land was searched that night. I'm hesitant to speculate because there seems to be some debate. IMO, it only matters if it is TRUE that the girls were deposited there in the time frame between the first search of the property and the second. That's the key to determining one crucial aspect of the timeline.
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Yes. But I bet whoever deposited the girls on RL’s land - if it happened - did not like RL too. He probably knew that RL was away, he created a major problem for RL. So either hated him, or hoped RL would sell his land after that.
 
watcher9 said:
I too wonder what the signatures could be? It must be something that was found or done to the victim that would be unusual to be found in a normal killing?
Here are some I was thinking of -

Type of rope or tied knot?
A symbol that he left on a tree or their bodies?
A cut off locket of hair?
An earring or ear cut off?
Certain type or color of zip ties?
A missing article of clothing (like a sock, shoelace or bra)?
A bullet in the forehead?
A "letter" carved on the body?
A certain object used to desecrate their bodies?
Maybe a red or black rose lying across their chests?
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Something religious, maybe? A couple of crossed twigs?
I wonder, why does DC think that BG is religious? I would not feel it, given the circumstances, I would usually be able to tell the opposite, who is doubting, not religious, or merely pretending. However, DC’s faith is strong. He must feel something about BG, and I think it comes from the crime scene.,
 
TL4S said:
My question has often been at exactly what point did BG decide to murder the girls? He had to hike the entire trail, cross the bridge, and maybe even time before that, like if he saw them dropped off and had to park his car. At any point along the way, he could have turned around. But he didn't.

What the h*ll happened? Did he wake up that morning with an urge? Did he even know what he was going to do when L filmed him on the bridge? And if it wasn't planned, whatever he did at the cs had to have been done with things he had in his vehicle or on his person. I've always felt that way.

I also thought it sounded like Ives felt BG committed the crime and got out of there. I don't believe there was a lot of time spent with the bodies afterwards. He maybe posed them, I don't know. It doesn't feel like that kind of murder to me, but I'm open to the idea. But if he did, I don't think there was time for anything too elaborate. JMO
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I have an idea close to sci-fi. What if BG killed them, and someone else who saw it, or stumbled upon them later, desecrated the bodies even further?
 
I just don't know what to make of Abby and Libby's case anymore. I still believe LE knows who the killer is because LE puts a lot of personalization in their interviews and press conferences. I also still believe the killer is local to the area of Delphi. I know posters have gone over what local means to them many, many times. I live in a rural area in another state that has a somewhat larger, not much, population. Local to me would be anything within 50 miles. Rural areas with few job opportunities will consider somewhere local when people from more densely populated areas would not due to the fact that the people from more populated places do not have to travel far to get what they need. I, like many of you, am fascinated by Falcon500's last post on this forum. He is verified LE and says serial killer. I have to give that idea weight now. At first, I did not think a serial killer was responsible. However, Abby and Libby's deaths do resemble Elizabeth and Lyric in many ways. I am sure there are a lot of differences too. The biggest similarity is the places where the crimes occurred. The Monon High Bridge area must have been extremely familiar to the killer. This leads me to believe a local with quite a bit of outdoor experience. Lizzy and Lyric were taken from Meyer's Lake area if I remember correctly, a public park with some secluded areas. Their bikes were found in one of those areas. Now, it would be easy to find Meyer's Lake. What makes me think their killer was an outdoor kind of person is where their bodies were found. The Seven Bridges area was isolated but not unknown. From what I can remember from the maps of the area, a person would have to know it was there to get to it. Maybe there is a serial killer. The mention on the podcast of possible signatures left by the killer lends support to that idea. I still have a hard times meshing serial killer with someone local to Delphi. Do ya'll think if it is a serial killer, that he lives in or around Delphi?
 
I am thinking about the evidence at the crime scene being not what you would expect. I wonder if the killer had visited that area before the day he killed the girls and somehow staged the area...Left signs of some sort of religious ritual or items that would frighten the girls when they saw them, or dead animals. If the crime was planned in advance The killer could have left things there with other peoples DNA on them to confuse the scene.
 
Serdavc said:
@Ozoner Not sure if you wanted my opinion or Falcon’s. But if you are asking me: Yes, I think pairs is BG’s goal if he can find them. I’m not sure if Lyric and Lizzie were his first murders but I do think he will have a history of escalation, for example: he will have a history of SA with children. I spent too much time researching local RSO’s. SK was just just too out of my realm of possibility considering the location. But SK seems possible now. I think he was hunting the bridge area that day and those poor girls fell into his trap. I think he was able to abduct Lizzie and Lyric with a ruse and that is why he was able to move them to a different location than the abduction area. He may have wanted to do the same to Abby and Libby (abduction, assault, move to different location) but realized he wasn’t able to control them and that’s why they were murdered where they were found.
Personal side note:
I don’t want to wait for another murder with similar signatures before BG is found, I want justice for Libby and Abby and Lyric and Lizzie Now! Let Today be the Day.
Click to expand...


Now, I am not sure you are right, but if indeed he is a SK that kills pairs, and if Lyric and Elizabeth were his doing, then I am positive he has OCD related to symmetry (you know, when you step over cracks in pavement with R, and next time, L, foot, or go up the stairs making equal amount of steps with R and L foot).

These two pairs of girls look similar, pointing at this symmetry. One, lighter and younger, another one, bigger and older.

Is he going to look for a couple slightly older than Libby and Abby next time? Like, 17 and 18?

Also of the same physical type?

And if the girls were in any way posed, I wonder if Lyric and Elizabeth’s remnants were placed the same way as Libby and Abby (I don’t know how, but for example, the larger girl on the Left?).

I am not sure BG is a SK and killed both couples, but if he did, there might be some “symmetry” analogy there.

He may not necessarily kill couples, but probably has “lairs” where he’d bring two bodies with the same physical characteristics as the girls, and place them in a certain way.

MOO.
 
dotr said:
Feb 12 2020
ibm.
$260K renovation underway to turn Delphi's Monon High Bridge into pedestrian trail
"It's a beautiful natural area that has been an attraction for decades and decades, over a century," said Kleckner. "Once it is finished, it will be a destination."

''The western third of the Monon High Bridge, about 300 feet in total, will be decked and rails put up. Indiana Landmarks said the eventual goal is to finish the entire bridge with a path that connects back to Delphi on existing roads.

"Following February 2017, trail safety became a really important issue, said Kleckner. "Our motivation before was really preservation. Following those events, it became preservation and trail safety."
Monon+High+Bridge.jpg

The Monon High Bridge, just east of Delphi
New+Delphi+Sketch.jpg

A new sketch, video and more audio of who police believe is the suspect in the Delphi double homicide was released on April 22, 2019. Provided by Indiana State Police
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This renovation does not sit well with me. If the killer was behind bars, I might think differently but right now it just seems wrong.
 
TL4S said:
We know Libby's shoe was found somewhere around the wooded bottom along the creek because KG tells us that, but we don't know exactly which side. In my mind, the shoe was on the south side of the creek because it came off when Libby ran toward the creek and first hit mud. Her footprints headed into the creek, so searchers automatically looked across the creek to find where the footprints came out, which is when they found the bodies.
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From the Down the Hill Podcast at 50:00

Kelsi was in a search party at the bridge when the first sign of the girls was found a quarter a mile away. “We heard somebody yell up the hill that they found a shoe, and at the moment I knew exactly what they were wearing. I couldn’t remember what the sweatshirt was my sister was wearing until later but I knew exactly what shoes they were wearing. And so they yelled out that there was a black Nike, and I knew it was Libby’s. And then about 30 seconds later somebody else said that they found them.”
 
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