Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

[No it's not]

If, as Robert Ives says, there are at least three “signatures” left by the killer then why the heck can’t LE release what one of those is to the public. They can keep the others to themselves. But if the signatures are as they defined them, unrelated to the crime themselves but personal to the killer, why could police NOT think this would be useful for the public to know. That someone who knows the killer even casually might recognize this something as being connected to him? LE is cemented to this idea that someone close to the killer recognizes him and just is too afraid or too loyal to rat him out. But someone who is only a casual acquaintance may pick up on the “signature” and will not have any qualms....and a desire for $240,000...about turning this guy in. LE’s thinking is moronic. There. I said it. I have a huge amount of respect for LE but this investigation went off the rails a long time ago. My fear is it’s too far gone.

The signatures could be part of the COD and hence would not be released. Just saying.

ALL IMO

-Nin

 

[Falcon500]

Not to mention that both Carter and Ives seem to be resigned to this guy striking again and that in itself (if/when he kills again) makes him a serial killer, does it not?

Many, including me, believe he is responsible for the Iowa case.

 

[TTF14]

Many, including me, believe he is responsible for the Iowa case.

I would hope that if he is and LE thinks he is, there'd be a huge push in that county in Iowa to identify BG by the photos/voice/video/sketch..... He could be "hiding in plain sight" in Iowa, not Indiana.

 

[dotr]

I have an idea close to sci-fi. What if BG killed them, and someone else who saw it, or stumbled upon them later, desecrated the bodies even further?

Well that is a sci-fi/horror type scenario, but it has happened and the crime is still unsolved.

Students in Quebec came across a murdered college student's body in the woods, and apparently thinking she was a mannequin, set her body on fire.
Ultimately the charges were dropped, but the perp remains on the loose, hmmm- not likely related to this case, but since there are some slight similarities, might as well post a few details..fwiw, imo, speculation.
Ws thread..
CANADA - Canada - Valerie Leblanc, 18, Gatineau QC, 23 Aug 2011

No body tampering charges laid in Valerie Leblanc case

Police have released this sketch of an 'important witness' in the Valerie Leblanc murder investigation, Thursday, October 13, 2011.
Police say there are still no suspects in the case and a search continues for a main witness. They've released a sketch of this witness and in recent weeks a description of a bicycle they believe this witness rides.
The bicycle is described as a mountain bike with a straight handlebars. Police say the bike appears to be a lower end model and that it had mountain or hybrid tires.
The key witness is described as:

• white
• French-speaking
• 20-35 years old
• 5'10" to 6' tall
• 200 lbs or more
• dark hair
• large hands
• thick neck
• chubby face with high cheekbones
• pointy nose and chin
• walks with a limp

 

[Eclipsed]

I would hope that if he is and LE thinks he is, there'd be a huge push in that county in Iowa to identify BG by the photos/voice/video/sketch..... He could be "hiding in plain sight" in Iowa, not Indiana.

Or Montana

 

[curiousgene]

I wish the DTH podcast hosts would have asked Ives about familial DNA - whether or not it's something that's been considered in this case. Even if he couldn't say yes or no I would have liked to hear what he had to say about it.

Me too!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

The explanation of signatures brings me back to the “Shack” reference and how the killer in this fictional story left a ladybug drawing on their victims with one more dot on the bug. I am still curious about PE and why he was on their radar prior to his suicide in rural Lebanon (as mentioned in Dr. Oz). I would love to know what he was saying during his 4-hour stand-off.
SK was not my direction of thought, but now I am giving it a run.

His wife will know, what he had to say. He talked to her during the stand-off, AFAIK. If we would know too ... But I think, it isn't him re Delphi.

 

[TTF14]

Or Montana

Why Montana?

 

[Cj707]

The explanation of signatures brings me back to the “Shack” reference and how the killer in this fictional story left a ladybug drawing on their victims with one more dot on the bug. I am still curious about PE and why he was on their radar prior to his suicide in rural Lebanon (as mentioned in Dr. Oz). I would love to know what he was saying during his 4-hour stand-off.
SK was not my direction of thought, but now I am giving it a run.

Forgive my ignorance, and if it's not allowed I get it, but who is PE? I have tried to figure it out on my own to no avail and decided to ask here as a last resort.

Again, if we are not allowed to say a whole name I get it, maybe someone could give me some kind of clue that I can follow to find some info. LOL MOO and Thank you!

 

[Justice101]

And if there were only 25 phones to check like Ives believes, then it would be easy to check them. This really makes me wonder if they found the phone number of someone high profile among those 25 phones.

ETA FBI would have just got a tower dump wouldn't they?

I don't believe that is legal. I think you have to have a search warrant for AN INDIVIDUAL to get data on what towers that person pinged. At least, that is the way the law was years ago.

 

[Falling Down]

The signatures could be part of the COD and hence would not be released. Just saying.

ALL IMO

-Nin

I agree, "signatures" could mean circumstances and not physical evidence at all.

JMO

 

[JnRyan]

They could have some DNA from an unknown person-or maybe even an unknown male if they happened to get a Y chromosome-but they likely can't be certain that it's from BG.

OR persons, plural. In a recent podcast someone was explaining the difficulty with touch or contact DNA. That jacket or sweatshirt that Liberty or Kelsi kept in the car is a potential problem. How long has it been in the car? How many times and where has she worn it.

For example, we could have Person A - from out of town - who pulls into a fast food restaurant in Delphi. Person B - a local - bumps into Person A while backing out of the line and as a result Person B now has DNA from Person A on his or her jacket. Later while playing outside Person B bumps against Liberty and her jacket. Now Liberty could have the touch DNA from BOTH Person B and an unknown Person A. Person A's DNA is not going to show up anywhere if LE were to even collect DNA from every man in the county if Person A is not in the system. But LE, unaware of the above circumstances, has no idea, as you say, whether or not Person A is the killer or just another innocent bystander. And given the number of possibilities surrounding how often and where Liberty wore the jacket LE could 2 or 3 or a dozen unidentified DNA profiles. Then there is what they might find on Abigail. BUT, if the killer used a gun and never touched the girls NONE of the DNA would be from him. Yes, I believe LE has a big problem here.

One big hole in my scenario is the 'signatures'. Could LE place more emphasis on DNA found on a signature? And if that DNA was on more than one signature?

 

[JnRyan]

The signatures could be part of the COD and hence would not be released. Just saying.

ALL IMO

-Nin

Well, that punches a hole in my theory that LE might find DNA on a signature or signatures.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I would hope that if he is and LE thinks he is, there'd be a huge push in that county in Iowa to identify BG by the photos/voice/video/sketch..... He could be "hiding in plain sight" in Iowa, not Indiana.

I agree, although without the last of your sentences.

 

[TL4S]

One similarity that bothers me between the Delphi and Evansdale cases is crime scene proximity to a major highway system.

There's Interstate 380/hwy 20 directly south of Meyer's Lake in Evansdale, and the Hoosier Heartland Highway just west of the Monon High Bridge Trail. I know the Evansdale girls were moved to another location, but if it's a SK, and that was his first murder, maybe by the time he got to Delphi he didn't want the hassle or risk of transporting.

Anyway, it's probably not significant, but when I look at the maps, that's the first thing that stands out. It makes me wonder about the side roads around and under those major highways, too. Someone traveling a regular route, for whatever reason, and it involves taking exits on and off those highways routinely, and he happens to see girls alone in wooded areas...

Also of note, there's a waterway (Cedar River - IA, Deer Creek - IN) nearby in both cases, along with park grounds, bridges that cross the waterway, and nature trails.

 

[Rossymom]

Forgive my ignorance, and if it's not allowed I get it, but who is PE? I have tried to figure it out on my own to no avail and decided to ask here as a last resort.

Again, if we are not allowed to say a whole name I get it, maybe someone could give me some kind of clue that I can follow to find some info. LOL MOO and Thank you!

Police want to know if Etter is tied to Delphi killings

 

[chaz]

I don't believe that is legal. I think you have to have a search warrant for AN INDIVIDUAL to get data on what towers that person pinged. At least, that is the way the law was years ago.

Call me confused but I was just listening to the Megphone podcast. Part5 Delphi Evidence.

https://cms.megaphone.fm/channel/sceneofthecrime?selected=HIM3571104404
At 12:50 minutes it says:

"Robert Ives told us that he personally submitted multiple subpoenas seeking to obtain all celphone records within a five mile radius that day to determine who was in the area on the 13th. All owners of celphone that pinged in the area of the bridge that day were contacted regarding their activities and wther they'd seen anything. Investigators looked particularly closely at anyone who's phone records showed that they were newly in the area or spend several hours there during the time in question."

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Call me confused but I was just listening to the Megphone podcast. Part5 Delphi Evidence.

https://cms.megaphone.fm/channel/sceneofthecrime?selected=HIM3571104404
At 12:50 minutes it says:

"Robert Ives told us that he personally submitted multiple subpoenas seeking to obtain all celphone records within a five mile radius that day to determine who was in the area on the 13th. All owners of celphone that pinged in the area of the bridge that day were contacted regarding their activities and wther they'd seen anything. Investigators looked particularly closely at anyone who's phone records showed that they were newly in the area or spend several hours there during the time in question."

Thank you for posting this info.

Quoted bbm
I would so love to see the names that were on those records!

 

[Marzipan]

Questions: What is the age of the youngest SK (or any killer) to have left multiple bizarre signatures? Is it usually something that progresses so wouldn’t happen with a very young adult killer? Or have some started young enough that they would be that far along with signatures by 18-20-something?
Just wondering if multiple signatures makes very young guy a lot less likely.

 

[No it's not]

I don't believe that is legal. I think you have to have a search warrant for AN INDIVIDUAL to get data on what towers that person pinged. At least, that is the way the law was years ago.

That is correct. However, the US Supreme Court ruled on the Stored Communications Act/ 4th Ammendment with a benchmark decision in June of 2018. Perhaps there was still some wiggle room until then. This article from just a few months prior to the USSC decision comes to mind and illustrates the problematic well IMO, as well as showing how differently some of the district courts in CA viewed the base for a cell tower dump/search warrants ruling:

Regardless of the Outcome in United States v. Carpenter, the Stored Communications Act is Problematic

ALL IMO

-Nin