Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

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Questions: What is the age of the youngest SK (or any killer) to have left multiple bizarre signatures? Is it usually something that progresses so wouldn’t happen with a very young adult killer? Or have some started young enough that they would be that far along with signatures by 18-20-something?
Just wondering if multiple signatures makes very young guy a lot less likely.

This kind of goes along with the question in my mind regarding signatures. Is that something found in the first kill or is that generally found and recognized in subsequent crimes? I hope that makes sense.
 
Many, including me, believe he is responsible for the Iowa case.

Based on your profession, I'm hoping you can answer this for me. Isn't it unusual to leave a signature, much less three of them?

Leaving one signature might require some forethought but three? It seems to me that someone committing a random crime of opportunity wouldn't leave a signature unless he is a SK or intends to be one.

After I read about the Iowa case a couple of months ago, I couldn't shake the feeling that there is a connection.
 
Well that is a sci-fi/horror type scenario, but it has happened and the crime is still unsolved.

Students in Quebec came across a murdered college student's body in the woods, and apparently thinking she was a mannequin, set her body on fire.
Ultimately the charges were dropped, but the perp remains on the loose, hmmm- not likely related to this case, but since there are some slight similarities, might as well post a few details..fwiw, imo, speculation.
Ws thread..
CANADA - Canada - Valerie Leblanc, 18, Gatineau QC, 23 Aug 2011

No body tampering charges laid in Valerie Leblanc case
image.

Police have released this sketch of an 'important witness' in the Valerie Leblanc murder investigation, Thursday, October 13, 2011.
Police say there are still no suspects in the case and a search continues for a main witness. They've released a sketch of this witness and in recent weeks a description of a bicycle they believe this witness rides.
The bicycle is described as a mountain bike with a straight handlebars. Police say the bike appears to be a lower end model and that it had mountain or hybrid tires.
The key witness is described as:
  • white
  • French-speaking
  • 20-35 years old
  • 5'10" to 6' tall
  • 200 lbs or more
  • dark hair
  • large hands
  • thick neck
  • chubby face with high cheekbones
  • pointy nose and chin
  • walks with a limp

interesting. Even before I read, walks with a limp, I thought, what if one covers his lower face with a scarf, would he look like BG.

We don’t know if BG speaks French, but perhaps this guy is bilingual? Would any part of Canada have an accent similar to MW? Something above North Dakota, close to the border?
 
OR persons, plural. In a recent podcast someone was explaining the difficulty with touch or contact DNA. That jacket or sweatshirt that Liberty or Kelsi kept in the car is a potential problem. How long has it been in the car? How many times and where has she worn it.

For example, we could have Person A - from out of town - who pulls into a fast food restaurant in Delphi. Person B - a local - bumps into Person A while backing out of the line and as a result Person B now has DNA from Person A on his or her jacket. Later while playing outside Person B bumps against Liberty and her jacket. Now Liberty could have the touch DNA from BOTH Person B and an unknown Person A. Person A's DNA is not going to show up anywhere if LE were to even collect DNA from every man in the county if Person A is not in the system. But LE, unaware of the above circumstances, has no idea, as you say, whether or not Person A is the killer or just another innocent bystander. And given the number of possibilities surrounding how often and where Liberty wore the jacket LE could 2 or 3 or a dozen unidentified DNA profiles. Then there is what they might find on Abigail. BUT, if the killer used a gun and never touched the girls NONE of the DNA would be from him. Yes, I believe LE has a big problem here.

One big hole in my scenario is the 'signatures'. Could LE place more emphasis on DNA found on a signature? And if that DNA was on more than one signature?

What if Libby’s video has more on it? BG approaching Abbie and touching her?
 
BBM
Well, if that’s the case, it might make sense as to why LE released the video of him walking across the bridge. If he does have OCD, that may be reflected in the way he walks. In the presser where they released the video footage, DC says to watch the mannerisms. I wonder if they saw OCD tendencies reflected somehow in the crime scene and in his mannerisms. Personally, I don’t see anything out of the ordinary, but I’m also not a trained professional. Maybe there is something there that only someone trained to see it, or someone who knows him, would notice.

I also think it’s interesting that your theory involves opposites because the two composite sketches of BG would fit into that theory. One smaller and younger, one larger and older. May not mean anything, but just something I noted.

Well, if we assume that the loop is one step after another, he kicks the ankle of one leg with the other one, like a tic, but I can not be too sure as maybe, it is not a continuous loop?
 
I have no idea. I'm not going to speculate on a situation that did not occur. And it doesn't matter what I think would have happened.

All I have been doing is trying to stress that LE was doing the best they could with the information they had with the procedures and policies they were accustomed to, and that I don't feel that wringing my hands about it now will change anything or help get justice for the girls.

I'm sorry that my comments come across as pushy; I have also been following this case for a long time and I share the same belief in my thoughts that all of you do in your own. I am not a newcomer to the case. If you all have felt disrespected, I do apologize.
I felt no disrespect from you so please no worries there. I will have to respectfully disagree with you about some LE actions early on though by saying while I know small town hearts were in the right place, the lack of professional concern shown to the situation overnight is something that will never set right with me. It's AJMO
 
One similarity that bothers me between the Delphi and Evansdale cases is crime scene proximity to a major highway system.

There's Interstate 380/hwy 20 directly south of Meyer's Lake in Evansdale, and the Hoosier Heartland Highway just west of the Monon High Bridge Trail. I know the Evansdale girls were moved to another location, but if it's a SK, and that was his first murder, maybe by the time he got to Delphi he didn't want the hassle or risk of transporting.
red by me
I don't know, but I imagine the course of the crime different, because the terrain was very different, where the killer met the girls for the first time. In Evansdale he probably was still driving his (white boxing) car, when he saw the little girls. In Delphi he had to park his (whatever) car a bit away, before he was able to watch/meet someone, this time Abby/Libby. MOO
 
This renovation does not sit well with me. If the killer was behind bars, I might think differently but right now it just seems wrong.

The bridge needs to be renovated. Otherwise it continues to deteriorate and an accident is inevitable. We can't wait for Bridge Guy to be captured because there isn't a logical timetable. These threads could be going a decade from now.

After I walked the bridge in November my immediate thought was that it needs to be fully fenced off near the foot of the bridge so other knuckleheads can't do what I did...effortlessly loop around the gate with the lock and warning sign. That discourages nothing.

Planks are soft and squishy. That's the overriding problem that is seldom mentioned and won't show up in any drone video. It's not a big deal avoiding the missing plank or the areas where the gaps are widest. The planks vary wildly in terms of stability and it isn't always obvious via appearance. Maybe 1/3 of the way through I put my left foot forward on a seemingly solid plank. Next thing you know it's giving way to the point I'm leaning backward and doing a full two-armed whirlybird trying to regain my balance.

Fortunately it succeeded. I don't want to guess what would have happened if I'd fallen fully backward into the planks. But a situation like that is why I decided beforehand to stop and film at only certain intervals, instead of filming while walking as others have.

Maybe 100 feet later there was another lesser version of the same thing. That's when I decided there was no chance I'm crossing again on the way back. It ended up a one hour detour through the woods but that was perfectly acceptable.

Also, the platforms on the bridge seem secure but just imagine if one of them goes. Nothing can save you. That could happen without warning. It would be favorite to give way in an instant without warning. At least if a plank gave way you might be able to fall in such a manner not to go through the opening.

Charming visuals, huh?

Such a great area. I walked several trails in Delphi including Canal Park area, Trailhead Park area and Moyer Gould Woods. Monon High is far the best kept and most scenic. It deserves to be the centerpiece. I've read the details of the planned renovation including rails and an expanded trail all the way back to Delphi. That's a mile away.

Very ambitious and admirable but I have no idea how they can do it for that price tag. Maybe I'm using my area as reference. The permitting alone would run $260,000.
 
The bridge needs to be renovated. Otherwise it continues to deteriorate and an accident is inevitable. We can't wait for Bridge Guy to be captured because there isn't a logical timetable. These threads could be going a decade from now.

After I walked the bridge in November my immediate thought was that it needs to be fully fenced off near the foot of the bridge so other knuckleheads can't do what I did...effortlessly loop around the gate with the lock and warning sign. That discourages nothing.

Planks are soft and squishy. That's the overriding problem that is seldom mentioned and won't show up in any drone video. It's not a big deal avoiding the missing plank or the areas where the gaps are widest. The planks vary wildly in terms of stability and it isn't always obvious via appearance. Maybe 1/3 of the way through I put my left foot forward on a seemingly solid plank. Next thing you know it's giving way to the point I'm leaning backward and doing a full two-armed whirlybird trying to regain my balance.

Fortunately it succeeded. I don't want to guess what would have happened if I'd fallen fully backward into the planks. But a situation like that is why I decided beforehand to stop and film at only certain intervals, instead of filming while walking as others have.

Maybe 100 feet later there was another lesser version of the same thing. That's when I decided there was no chance I'm crossing again on the way back. It ended up a one hour detour through the woods but that was perfectly acceptable.

Also, the platforms on the bridge seem secure but just imagine if one of them goes. Nothing can save you. That could happen without warning. It would be favorite to give way in an instant without warning. At least if a plank gave way you might be able to fall in such a manner not to go through the opening.

Charming visuals, huh?

Such a great area. I walked several trails in Delphi including Canal Park area, Trailhead Park area and Moyer Gould Woods. Monon High is far the best kept and most scenic. It deserves to be the centerpiece. I've read the details of the planned renovation including rails and an expanded trail all the way back to Delphi. That's a mile away.

Very ambitious and admirable but I have no idea how they can do it for that price tag. Maybe I'm using my area as reference. The permitting alone would run $260,000.
It does need renovation, I agree. It does look like a beautiful area. The timing is just off for me. I can't explain it but it just doesn't feel right.
 
On my end, I think this further puts to rest the "searchers were all over the crime scene/where they were found that night/etc. and didn't find them", meme. How is it all these people were at or near the CS, but didn't see this shoe?

JMO

Agreed. I also think it places great doubt toward the notion that the disturbance down the hill beyond the end of the bridge was so blatantly obvious. If that were the case then everyone searching that afternoon would have been focusing on that area. It's maybe 130 yards from the disturbance at the end of the bridge to where Libby's shoe was found.

Check any overhead view and you'll see that the area east of the bridge is a small semi circle. In February minus leaves you can cover that area in 15 minutes or less. Comfortably. You could sit and rest for 5 minutes and still cover it in 15. Two slopes straight down. No caves or any concealment areas. Plenty of wide open nothing. Thin trees. Then the creek.

One of the podcasts indicated they checked the huge cement platforms under the bridge, actually having men dangerously scale the platforms. That's what they were focusing on, an accident from the bridge itself. Obviously that would leave the girls smack under the bridge and not 130 yards away. That was probably more logical than any other incident. But seemingly they overplayed that version to the exclusion of anything else.

Then once the bodies were found and video discovered the confrontation point becomes obvious. That lends to the disturbance beyond the bridge suddenly being exploded in value and focus.

Minus knowledge of this crime, if we had a picture of that down the hill area from 4 PM on February 13 I bet it would have looked like plenty of leaves on the side of a slope. One person would see one thing and another person something else entirely.
 
And if there were only 25 phones to check like Ives believes, then it would be easy to check them. This really makes me wonder if they found the phone number of someone high profile among those 25 phones.

ETA FBI would have just got a tower dump wouldn't they?

When I hear 25 phones my first thought is that nobody visits these trails. That's the reality of the matter. I'll continue to wager the under on any number they want to profess toward trail visitors on February 13, 2017. I'll take foundational logic comfortably above anecdotal details.

Delphi is a trail town so they are proud of that fact and don't want to acknowledge the low number of times it actually plays out that way. When Kelsi was asked how many times she and Libby had visited the bridge she hesitated and said, "Multiple times."

No kidding. That was an unintentional hint toward the reality of the matter. This encompasses year after year. It's not dozens of times. It is a vague multiple times.

There are 3 homes along the outset of the trail. There is a business right there alongside County Road 300 as it curves. There is a small community behind the bridge. And it all encompasses 25 phones, even though you know darn well they used a liberal time frame from that day.
 
red by me
I don't know, but I imagine the course of the crime different, because the terrain was very different, where the killer met the girls for the first time. In Evansdale he probably was still driving his (white boxing) car, when he saw the little girls. In Delphi he had to park his (whatever) car a bit away, before he was able to watch/meet someone, this time Abby/Libby. MOO


If he was on the trail already when he first saw A and L, then you're right, that might be a different circumstance.

If he was driving by and saw A and L dropped off, or saw them somewhere on their drive there and followed them until he saw them dropped off, that would be more similar. This is what I think happened, but none of us know for sure.

In that situation, he would have had to park, that's true, but he knew the girls would be somewhere on the trail. I know the timing would have to be just right, but IMO, both these cases were opportunistic killings.
 
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Agreed. I also think it places great doubt toward the notion that the disturbance down the hill beyond the end of the bridge was so blatantly obvious. If that were the case then everyone searching that afternoon would have been focusing on that area. It's maybe 130 yards from the disturbance at the end of the bridge to where Libby's shoe was found.

Check any overhead view and you'll see that the area east of the bridge is a small semi circle. In February minus leaves you can cover that area in 15 minutes or less. Comfortably. You could sit and rest for 5 minutes and still cover it in 15. Two slopes straight down. No caves or any concealment areas. Plenty of wide open nothing. Thin trees. Then the creek.

One of the podcasts indicated they checked the huge cement platforms under the bridge, actually having men dangerously scale the platforms. That's what they were focusing on, an accident from the bridge itself. Obviously that would leave the girls smack under the bridge and not 130 yards away. That was probably more logical than any other incident. But seemingly they overplayed that version to the exclusion of anything else.

Then once the bodies were found and video discovered the confrontation point becomes obvious. That lends to the disturbance beyond the bridge suddenly being exploded in value and focus.

Minus knowledge of this crime, if we had a picture of that down the hill area from 4 PM on February 13 I bet it would have looked like plenty of leaves on the side of a slope. One person would see one thing and another person something else entirely.
Thanks again for the information and description of the area below the bridge. I've made a red circle on the attached map. Is it possible to walk in that area along the south bank of the creek below the steep slope? On the map it looks like it would be out of view from the bridge, especially the farther you go east. None of the videos I've seen have a good shot of that spot, so I've always been curious.

*Note: I'm short on time and can't get a better screenshot now, but just off to the east of where this photo stops, there appears to be another good crossing area in the creek (basically directly below the house). It looks like rock bottom all the way across, and higher, but discerning anything from a satellite map is limited...
 

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Well, if we assume that the loop is one step after another, he kicks the ankle of one leg with the other one, like a tic, but I can not be too sure as maybe, it is not a continuous loop?

If nothing happened in the video then why not just show the whole thing? It's obvious that they used the stills to make the continuous loop and cut out what they wanted to conceal. Hopefully Abby was trying to stop him by jumping at his back and he miss stepped.
 
The idea that there were at least 3 signatures at the crime scene is very interesting because a "signature," as far as I understand it, is not just a clue left behind. It is indicative of something the killer does in order to fulfil a psychological or an emotional need. So something like "he shot them with a gun" would not be a signature (not that I think that's what happened in this case) but something like "after he killed them he covered their faces" might be. IMO this information moves all the theories that deal with a motivation for gain (that girls were killed for revenge, to silence them because they witnessed or knew about a crime, etc) way, way, WAY down the list of possibilities.

I've said this from the beginning but I believe this is a BTK type killer. Not sure if he a serial killer or ever will be but I think the fantasy of the crime is extremely important to him. The killing itself provided the sexual release for him and the memory of it probably continues to.

I’ve fallen behind on the thread as it looks like it’s picking up steam again. Looking forward to catching up.

Since it appears there are new things being discussed from the podcast, and in some ways we’re starting at the beginning again, I just want to mention something that stood out to me early on which I believe may be even more relevant now that we’re hearing about 3 signatures....

I remember the tone of the very first presser after the girls bodies were found. I believe it was DC, but can’t recall for certain. Anyway, that first presser had a subtle undertone that made it sound as though they believed social media perhaps played a part in the murders. There was a comment (paraphrasing) “we believe our citizens are smart enough to figure it out - parents need to know what is going on in their children’s lives” - something along those lines. But my observation wasn’t so much about what was said as it was the way it was presented. It was presented in a calm manner that is typical for LE when making a statement about a case. Within the next day or so, the pressers changed and were being presented with a heightened sense of alarm.
I’ve always wondered what caused the change as the investigation of the crime scene had already been started prior to that first press release.
My only thought was that either there is really distressing information that was recovered from that phone, or something that wasn’t obvious at the crime scene was discovered during autopsy.

Perhaps an irrelevant observation, but thought I’d throw it out there for consideration.

All MOO....
 
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