Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #121
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MistyWaters
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I think the unreliability of touch DNA evidence is gradually becoming better known but much like your example of the wrongful conviction of AK (also mentioned in the article below), it appears prosecutors might tend to try take advantage of a jury’s preconceived and false notion - that any DNA is a sure reason to convict.
In the Delphi case, BP mentioned Libby’s sister lent both girls sweatshirts (sweaters?) because they didn’t bring their own with them that day.....and as do most teenagers she had several in the back of her car. Imagine the DNA they’d accumulate depending on when she wore them, where she went and who she was with, along with transfer from other items placed alongside the sweatshirts over time.
This is a very informative article -
Framed By Your Own Cells: How DNA Evidence Imprisons The Innocent
“........Thus, when prosecutors present to a jury touch-transfer DNA evidence with the same oomph as large-sample DNA evidence, the jurors, under the influence of pre-set expectations for scientific evidence to prove culpability and the common notion that DNA evidence is inherently trustworthy, feel compelled to convict. The result is touch-transfer DNA can readily lead to conviction of the innocent...”
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Charlot123
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I am slightly obsessed with genetics, but at the same time, no DNA could substitute for a good criminal investigation. They solved cases before DNA, they might solve this case without DNA. Or with partial one.
Charlot123
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And then, any lawyer could claim that his defendant’s DNA was planted at the crime place. So, even DNA does not substitute for good police work.
Yep, solved them before most knew what DNA even was. I'm thinking they may have to here.
Unfortunately; Abby was deceased when her body was discovered. She wasn't able to tell them anything.
I searched the media thread, but was unable to locate the two interviews I was looking for. Both AW and MP/BP have debunked these rumors. Libby was the only one to provide a witness account- and that was the video she recorded on her phone. BOTH girls were deceased when discovered.
Sorry I'm reposting this as I removed one to many QUOTE fields and my comments got merged into the original post.
I would agree with you JDough in the literal sense that Abby was unable to tell her tale, Libby told a little more, but with their remains found so soon after the crime was carried out, the whole story is there, it just needs to be read and the tale told. That is what is so frustrating about this crime, there is a full story here it just needs to be decoded and told.
Method, motive, signatures. We even have a sound track and visuals. What more could be wished for?
If a sex worker goes missing from near a truck park and is found months later in a ditch in the next state - that's a murder with nothing to go on and yet they do still get solved.
But the Delphi killings have all the boxes filled. All except the one that gives a name and address, and LE want that delivered into their laps too, the 'one key tip' they are asking for. As someone said before me, EVERY crime would be solved with that 'one key tip' because it's the one that gives the answer.
I admire Supt Carter and Mike Patty's religious beliefs and their assertion that 'good will always win out over evil' (Down the Hill Episode 9- 31 min), and that they hope it will be resolved 'in our lifetime', but most of us run to a shorter timescale, and meanwhile this killer is still out there undoubtedly taking more innocent lives.
I'm sorry and I know everyone involved in this case is desperate to solve it but something major has to have been overlooked; and with no progress, IMO an element of complacency has crept in. Without a new set of eyes, be that a new task force or public information I cant see this case going anywhere any time soon.
Its almost as if they are resigned to needing another couple of attacks to identify this guy but given this killers vile MO and bearing in mind Supt Doug Carter speech at the second year presser ' We know this is about power to you' and 'How you left them in those woods is not what they are experiencing today' I don't think that there can be any justification for complacency. Somewhere, sometime, someone is going to lose their life in the the most horrible way, pity the poor potential victims. There is still no time to waste.
minazoe
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I feel like he goes back there.
he visits the photos of the locations on-line
he watches for news and trolls the chats.
if he moves on from it it will be when he has a new killing somewhere.
everything about these murders reeks of attention seeking.
it's part of his sadism.
sadly he's probably not very intelligent. just deluded.
mOO
he visits the photos of the locations on-line
he watches for news and trolls the chats.
if he moves on from it it will be when he has a new killing somewhere.
everything about these murders reeks of attention seeking.
it's part of his sadism.
sadly he's probably not very intelligent. just deluded.
mOO
In the "Down the Hill" podcast, RI (who is no longer involved with the case) says he doesn't have any suspects, but has come across several individuals who could be capable of such a crime. Sheriff TL says he has about 3-4 suspects. DC and MP both admit that DC owes MP, as in an arrest, however, MP also states that even at the end of the investigation, justice won't be served until the killer is found guilty in a court of law.
While it's very easy to get frustrated with the seeming lack of forward movement in this case, I haven't given up. MP knows that in order to get justice, the investigation and subsequent trial needs to be tight. The only thing worse than not knowing who BG is, would be if he got off because of a weak case. No matter where LE stands in the investigation, DC cannot give the families any answers until BG is tried and convicted. It sucks, but that's the way it has to be.
I think either, 1) LE doesn't know who BG is based on the evidence and needs someone to come forward with information, or 2) LE has a handful of people they suspect but can't pin it safely enough on any one of them to take it to trial until they have more solid information.
My guess is that BG is not some sort of enigma, nor do I think he was organized and stealthy. I think it's possible he could still be in a 40 mile radius of Delphi, or dead, or hiding out. He could be on LE's radar as we speak. I'm certainly not willing to give BG more credit than I give LE, at least.
While it's very easy to get frustrated with the seeming lack of forward movement in this case, I haven't given up. MP knows that in order to get justice, the investigation and subsequent trial needs to be tight. The only thing worse than not knowing who BG is, would be if he got off because of a weak case. No matter where LE stands in the investigation, DC cannot give the families any answers until BG is tried and convicted. It sucks, but that's the way it has to be.
I think either, 1) LE doesn't know who BG is based on the evidence and needs someone to come forward with information, or 2) LE has a handful of people they suspect but can't pin it safely enough on any one of them to take it to trial until they have more solid information.
My guess is that BG is not some sort of enigma, nor do I think he was organized and stealthy. I think it's possible he could still be in a 40 mile radius of Delphi, or dead, or hiding out. He could be on LE's radar as we speak. I'm certainly not willing to give BG more credit than I give LE, at least.
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Snipped by me for focus:
At the April PC, DC states it's about power to the killer. IMO, this sums up the very reason we aren't hearing more from LE at this point. I've said it for awhile now, but I think LE's lack of pressers and interviews (aside from the podcast) could possibly be to starve BG of attention. Dry him out.
Same reason maybe DC is the apparent new spokesperson for the case. Is this purposeful? Is it a tactical maneuver on LE's part that we just don't understand because we don't know the facts? I'm only guessing, but I think it's possible.
gregjrichards
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I hope everyone is well.
Is the In Pursuit with John Walsh episode about the murders worth watching? Do you think it was helpful?
Is the In Pursuit with John Walsh episode about the murders worth watching? Do you think it was helpful?
arielilane
Justice for Liz Barraza
in my opinion a new task force is most definitely needed. is DC hinting at BG being a serial killer? with the statement "we know this is about power to you." Isn't that something that is common factor for a serial killers' frame of mind? ...and attention seeker...BTK couldn't stand not reading about his crimes. Yes, to a new set of eyes - to oversee this case. BG has to be caught before he strikes again.
arielilane
Justice for Liz Barraza
I hope you are well too. I am not much help though because I did not watch the program.
carbuff
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I'm very worried that he's reaching the point of committing another crime.
AgeofAquaruis
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Who could weild power, while hiding in plain sight? Who would have extensive knowledge of the forest, land, and bounderies, and know it Like the back of their hand? Flora,and fauna. Who know laws,such as fishing, hunting, boating etc? I think it could be a DNR person. They would blend right in, nobody would bat an eye at them being there. Nobody would suspect them because they are clean as a whistle no record.Nobody would question his vehicle being parked at a certain place,for any period of time. He's not the usual suspect. He would also fit right in with LE because he's part of their team, which would make it possible to fish for info, and be 'helpful' at the same time. He's a family man, religious, maybe even a fan of the movie the shack. MOO
ab01
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Yah and many have argued that,” they were collecting dna samples from people they interviewed early on, they would have only did that if they had viable dna from the crime scene”. False imo at that time they didn’t have lab results back on evidence from the crime scene. They were merely taking dna samples to compare with what they hoped would be viable dna from the crime scene. And don’t give me that bs of so and so said on social media that their bf has been cleared via dna. That’s hogwash, nobody has been cleared via dna and LE almost certainly wouldn’t have told them even if they were.
ETA there’s soo much social media bs that has trickled down, even to this very site in this case.JMO
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ab01
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Honestly the horrifying truth is that he likely already has.
Only about half the show is devoted to Abigail and Liberty - the first half is about a couple who were murdered in front of a child. I look at it as another way to get the word out there. To get the video, sketch and audio in front of someone who might recognize him. But it is not even a very good refresher. Still, share it. We never know when that one right person might see it.
And it may have not been a child or children the age of Abigail and Liberty. It may be an adult female he murdered and LE may believe the MO doesn't match this case. OR it may be a person who is listed as missing and no one knows they are dead.
Yes. I believe it was Leazenby who said during an interview that they will not clear anyone until an arrest is made. He said something about how they don't ever want to have to backtrack and admit they are now looking at somebody they'd previously cleared. It would be a nightmare for the prosecution. I can't find the interview, but I've linked it several times before.
On a different note, while looking for the TL interview, I ran across this article I'd never seen.
Expansion of DNA database could help catch teens' killer
"Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said running any evidence they have against the broader DNA database is something investigators have not discussed, but it's worth exploring.
The question is when to request the comparison since the new law creates an ever expansive database. Do investigators run a comparison now or wait a few more months after more suspected felons have been arrested, Leazenby rhetorically asked, thinking aloud during the interview."
And another old DNA reference:
Familial DNA search might unlock Delphi killer's identity
[Recently asked about familial DNA searches and the homicide investigation into German and Williams' death, Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said, “Obviously the answer hasn‘t come to the surface, yet.
“This is out of the box, so what can it hurt?”
Leazenby said Indiana State Police Maj. Steve Holland telephoned Leazenby after the Journal & Courier interviewed Holland, who is director of the Indiana State Police laboratories. Leazenby said Holland was giving him a courtesy call to expect the J&C's questions about familial DNA.
“That’s being discussed," Leazenby said of the outcome of Holland's call, "but there hasn’t been a decision made yet. It’s on the table.
“It might help us reach success.”]
Although none of these quotes definitively say so, they must have some form of DNA. Might not even be the killer's, but I suppose even eliminating people could help?
ab01
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Yah I have always thought that they had a partial dna profile at best. The problem with partial Dna is that it can match to thousands of people. JMO
ETA I'm not convinced that Dna evidence is going to be what breaks this case open. I think its going to be one of those deals where something is said by BG when he's drunk or off the cuff and somebody reports it to LE. Or that somebody that is close with BG feels wronged in some way and spills the beans to LE after they no longer have ties to BG.
ETA or if it is dna its going to be some kind of new technology that replicates partial DNA profiles etc.
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