Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

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How often do you make predictions and how often are you correct? I do this, but only in my head.
6 year old Michele Dorr's case should have been solved almost right away. There was a witness, a repair guy at the house where the killer lived. He saw Michele come to the door looking for the killer's niece. (I can't find the witness information now.) LE focused on the little girl's dad right away, and he didn't do it. That little girl lay buried for 12 years. Her murder was unsolved for too long. SMH.

I don't want to get this thread sidetracked, but I remember the Michelle Dorr case well. I was living very close to there when it occurred. It was a truly sad case and yes, the killer was right there in her neighborhood.
 
If BG has more money than the yearly budget of the Carroll County prosecutor, how would the prosecution ever prevail when going up against BG's top shelf defense attorneys?
(Serious question)
I believe LE knows who BG is but realize they are up against "Goliath."
If they know there is reasonable doubt they will not arrest.
MOO
"Goliath" lost.
 
They didn't change toward local. The local cops always believed he was local. Frankly I don't think they are capable of any perspective beyond that. Year after year they deal with nothing but local perpetrators. Robert Ives conceded in two decades as Carroll County prosecutor he never had an unsolved murder or any murder committed by a stranger. That's the situational influence we are dealing with here. It's the reason I don't put any stock in statements by Leazenby or Carter. They speak based on every bias from their career background.

It was Ives who said in "Down the Hill" that originally he went along with the consensus that Bridge Guy was local, but now he worries it might have been merely someone passing through. That statement right there was more revealing toward local law enforcement thought process than anything from a presser. Ives was still employed locally during the early stage of this investigation. Maybe he recently came back. I don't follow all the particulars.

Actually there was one revealing quote from Leazenby, the one where he said they go "back and forth" on one or two perpetrators. That is the single most meaningful and damning indication from calendar year 2020. It more than wiped out everything else from that local newspaper article.

Robert Ives is the top prosecutor in Carroll County, again, after a hiatus.

Good point about Ives' comments, and I have to agree so far as he has a locals' perspective, with regards to anything high-profile like this in Carroll County. By that I mean murders of any kind, which are fairly rare, there. Then suddenly there was the Flora case in late '16, three months later the girls were killed in Deer Creek Twp. east of Delphi proper.

It's gnawing at me, "local", or "not-so-local" but knows the bridge area, or complete stranger. A complete stranger would have had to do a lot of research before the murders, more than a local who had been there, obviously. He would have to get a "feel" for the terrain, the trails in the woods on private properties, and his possible escape route(s). A local who had been there before in years previous would have maybe had to reacquaint themselves with the area in question, at some point before the murders.

One huge factor on my end is the time of year he chose. As others here have noted, there is a very real possibility he chose the general time of Valentine's Day, maybe for shock factor, too, considering that was the next day. Maybe that's why he chose the spot where they were found, he pretty much knew nobody would really suspect anything bad happened, early on, and there was a very real possibility they wouldn't be found until Valentine's Day.

What else is significant about the time of year? The wooded areas are terribly overgrown during the warmer months, sections of the private trails are virtually impassable, according to YouTube videos I've seen. The area in question would have had much clearer lines-of-sight, and the trails would have been passable to get out of there, assuming he didn't leave via the cemetery, which was my original theory about an escape route.

I sincerely doubt it's a random person passing through, in the transient sense.

JMO
 
If the parked car at the abandoned building angle is truly something to consider, BG may have been out of there before the search started and on the interstate or state road to who knows where, but could be within the area of small towns around West Lafayette. On the other hand, if he was a transient without transportation, he may have lurking around in RL’s outbuildings or hiding out watching what would unfold. The latter was my initial feeling three years ago. Did he stay or did he go?

The latter just seems implausible, to me.

How would he have gotten out of that area? It was below freezing that night, right in that part of IN. I just have a hard time believing the guy hung around, and besides, RL had at least one dog at the time, and he had and boarded horses on the property.

I don't think the upper part of his property was trampled upon by BG.

JMO
 
Very interesting comments and lines of thinking from the posters here. Kudos!

My take on the matter is that this was a crime of opportunity. The dude had not been back to this trail for sometime. If he was stalking day after day, he would have been recognized and pointed out from multiple witnesses.

<snip>

I agree with him being recognized, except for one important part of the area in question.

Other members have been right to the bridge, and/or have recounted others' experiences there. The place is desolate, most of the time.

On a nice Summer day in '17 I saw no one in the area of C.R. 300 that I thought was there to "sight see" like myself, or who was there to hike/walk. I saw one person on the road walking their dog (and they made note of my vehicle as I drove by), no vehicles on the road, and nobody was at the cemetery. Andersons was desolate.

I heard the buzz of bugs.

JMO
 
Is there even a reliable source for a couple “arguing” under the bridge or has it gotten repeated so often it’s become fact? The first time I ever recall hearing of arguing was connected to a wild, speculative theory that “the couple” was actually the killer and one of the two girls.

See post #767, no mention of FSG witnessing an argument.
IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

I've seen nothing that confirmed a couple arguing there. It may have been a reference to "a couple of people arguing" but it's been reported that it was "a couple arguing".

Who knows, and I've never thought it had any relevance to the case.

That said. people were on the bridge within minutes of the murders.

JMO
 
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I attached the file below as a guide in case anyone is wondering what I'm talking about when I describe my drive southbound on IN 25 in 2017 for my visit to Delphi. The orientation is looking south.

The gray star is pretty much the area of the CS.

The orange arrows denote breaks in the Street View function of Google Earth/Satellite, the actual street views from the street level have not been updated since 2008, around the time Street View went live on Google's platform. In other words, it hasn't been updated along there since the highway was built in 2014, except along the new highway. The purple line denotes the former path of IN 25, which was two lanes through there and went through Delphi.

You can still navigate the street level view of the old path of IN 25 in Street View, it's kind of freaky and I discovered this only late last year. A section of that road no longer exists, again the purple line on the image I uploaded.

I hope this helps anyone wondering about some stuff discussed here.
 

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I agree with him being recognized, except for one important part of the area in question.

Other members have been right to the bridge, and/or have recounted others' experiences there. The place is desolate, most of the time.

On a nice Summer day in '17 I saw no one in the area of C.R. 300 that I thought was there to "sight see" like myself, or who was there to hike/walk. I saw one person on the road walking their dog (and they made note of my vehicle as I drove by), no vehicles on the road, and nobody was at the cemetery. Andersons was desolate.

I heard the buzz of bugs.

JMO
You can't go by how desolate the bridge area is now or how desolate it was in 2017 after the murders. The murders likely caused many people to avoid that particular trail; parents probably forbade their kids to go there. It may well have been a popular teen hang out before the murders and may have been far less desolate than it is now.
 
Is there even a reliable source for a couple “arguing” under the bridge or has it gotten repeated so often it’s become fact? The first time I ever recall hearing of arguing was connected to a wild, speculative theory that “the couple” was actually the killer and one of the two girls.

See post #767, no mention of FSG witnessing an argument.
IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION
GH Derrick Path on YouTube. At around 10. 30. I heard it as "Derrick asked the man if he had seen the girls. He said no. I saw a couple On the bridge" Derrick then took another path thinking the girls would be gone from there. I also heard on a Renner interview, can't find it now, that Derrick was told by this guy that he saw a couple under the bridge.
 
Is there even a reliable source for a couple “arguing” under the bridge or has it gotten repeated so often it’s become fact? The first time I ever recall hearing of arguing was connected to a wild, speculative theory that “the couple” was actually the killer and one of the two girls.

See post #767, no mention of FSG witnessing an argument.
IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION
I want to say in my recollection, which I'm not positive is correct, that BP may have discussed with GH what DG said FSG told him when he asked if FSG had seen the two girls.
 
I want to say in my recollection, which I'm not positive is correct, that BP may have discussed with GH what DG said FSG told him when he asked if FSG had seen the two girls.
Yes. That is what I understood. In the video GH describes the man as wearing a plaid shirt, so I guess this is the same person
 
You can't go by how desolate the bridge area is now or how desolate it was in 2017 after the murders. The murders likely caused many people to avoid that particular trail; parents probably forbade their kids to go there. It may well have been a popular teen hang out before the murders and may have been far less desolate than it is now.

Oh sure I can.

Below is a YouTube video by a YT user that I referenced early on for the case. It was uploaded Dec. 29th, 2016, and appears to show a walk from the northwest part of Delphi, to the bridge and the end of MHB/the Southeast end.

There isn't one other human seen on the entire walk, and at some points he's in a residential part of Delphi. I'd imagine the walk took roughly an hour.

Popular? Sure. I just can't picture more than maybe ten people being there at any one time. Most of the time no people. Like the day I was there.

It's one of the reasons I didn't walk to the bridge, nobody else was around.

The walk from the Freedom Bridge to MHB starts at about 25:30.

 
If BG has more money than the yearly budget of the Carroll County prosecutor, how would the prosecution ever prevail when going up against BG's top shelf defense attorneys?
(Serious question)
I believe LE knows who BG is but realize they are up against "Goliath."
If they know there is reasonable doubt they will not arrest.
MOO
LE/FBI could be rather confident, that the arrest would end in suicide by police. But the question is, whether they have to risk their own lifes for never finally clarified crimes. Seems to be pointless and hopeless. Where is justice for the victims? That can't be a dead "evil monster". MOO
 
Robert Ives is the top prosecutor in Carroll County, again, after a hiatus.

Good point about Ives' comments, and I have to agree so far as he has a locals' perspective, with regards to anything high-profile like this in Carroll County. By that I mean murders of any kind, which are fairly rare, there. Then suddenly there was the Flora case in late '16, three months later the girls were killed in Deer Creek Twp. east of Delphi proper.

It's gnawing at me, "local", or "not-so-local" but knows the bridge area, or complete stranger. A complete stranger would have had to do a lot of research before the murders, more than a local who had been there, obviously. He would have to get a "feel" for the terrain, the trails in the woods on private properties, and his possible escape route(s). A local who had been there before in years previous would have maybe had to reacquaint themselves with the area in question, at some point before the murders.

One huge factor on my end is the time of year he chose. As others here have noted, there is a very real possibility he chose the general time of Valentine's Day, maybe for shock factor, too, considering that was the next day. Maybe that's why he chose the spot where they were found, he pretty much knew nobody would really suspect anything bad happened, early on, and there was a very real possibility they wouldn't be found until Valentine's Day.

What else is significant about the time of year? The wooded areas are terribly overgrown during the warmer months, sections of the private trails are virtually impassable, according to YouTube videos I've seen. The area in question would have had much clearer lines-of-sight, and the trails would have been passable to get out of there, assuming he didn't leave via the cemetery, which was my original theory about an escape route.

I sincerely doubt it's a random person passing through, in the transient sense.

JMO

I am curious about your statement that Robert Ives is the top prosecutor again. We know he was re-sworn in as a deputy prosecuting attorney close to the time of the April 2019 press conference. There is another poster here who recently asserted that he left again. I wanted to see if what that poster said was true and I can find no information that Ives is still associated with the Carroll County Prosecutor's Office. Both IN.gov and the Carroll County court pages list Nick McLeland as the head prosecutor with Troy Hawkins acting as deputy. @Falling Down, you are somewhat local, I believe? Have the websites just not been updated? Can you confirm that Robert Ives has entirely replaced Nick McCleland?
 
Unless the video was taken on an unseasonably warm day that the kids were off school, then it doesn't offer a valid comparison with the day of the murders.
Oh sure I can.

Below is a YouTube video by a YT user that I referenced early on for the case. It was uploaded Dec. 29th, 2016, and appears to show a walk from the northwest part of Delphi, to the bridge and the end of MHB/the Southeast end.

There isn't one other human seen on the entire walk, and at some points he's in a residential part of Delphi. I'd imagine the walk took roughly an hour.

Popular? Sure. I just can't picture more than maybe ten people being there at any one time. Most of the time no people. Like the day I was there.

It's one of the reasons I didn't walk to the bridge, nobody else was around.

The walk from the Freedom Bridge to MHB starts at about 25:30.

 
Robert Ives is the top prosecutor in Carroll County, again, after a hiatus.

Good point about Ives' comments, and I have to agree so far as he has a locals' perspective, with regards to anything high-profile like this in Carroll County. By that I mean murders of any kind, which are fairly rare, there. Then suddenly there was the Flora case in late '16, three months later the girls were killed in Deer Creek Twp. east of Delphi proper.

It's gnawing at me, "local", or "not-so-local" but knows the bridge area, or complete stranger. A complete stranger would have had to do a lot of research before the murders, more than a local who had been there, obviously. He would have to get a "feel" for the terrain, the trails in the woods on private properties, and his possible escape route(s). A local who had been there before in years previous would have maybe had to reacquaint themselves with the area in question, at some point before the murders.

One huge factor on my end is the time of year he chose. As others here have noted, there is a very real possibility he chose the general time of Valentine's Day, maybe for shock factor, too, considering that was the next day. Maybe that's why he chose the spot where they were found, he pretty much knew nobody would really suspect anything bad happened, early on, and there was a very real possibility they wouldn't be found until Valentine's Day.

What else is significant about the time of year? The wooded areas are terribly overgrown during the warmer months, sections of the private trails are virtually impassable, according to YouTube videos I've seen. The area in question would have had much clearer lines-of-sight, and the trails would have been passable to get out of there, assuming he didn't leave via the cemetery, which was my original theory about an escape route.

I sincerely doubt it's a random person passing through, in the transient sense.
JMO
Great post - lots of excellent points. You emphasize the time of year of this attack. We have discussed this throughout the thread as you point out, but its worthy of picking apart again.
1. Valentines Day - the obvious. It suggests he hates women, or a woman in particular. I'm guessing it's his mother, but could be an ex-wife, girlfriend, or even an object of his obsession that "rejected" him. (Unbenownst to them)
2. Holidays can tend to "trigger" people in general, but even more so (it seems) those with unregulated mental illness. Did he start ruminating over his perceived grievance with women a couple weeks prior to the date and start carefully planning how to exact his revenge?
3. The trails - your observation about the trails being easier to pass that time of year is very interesting. Only someone very familiar with the area would know that.
4. Random person/transient - agree it is not a "transient". If we are all correct in our speculations about the Perp having murderous gear under his jacket - it would seem very difficult for a transient to have the ability to collect all this.

Your post is thought provoking in that it underscores the speculation that this Perp is a local, or from a neighboring area. The level of knowledge of the trails go far beyond randomness; this seems to be someone who spent a fair amount of time exploring them.

I'd like to dig deeper in to this concept of someone who would know the trails well. We need local perspective for this. Here are my questions:
1. Were the trails a family outing destination, or mostly a teenage hangout?
2. Did most of the Delphi residents frequent these trails, and if so, how often?
3. Were there annual activities held at the trails such as scout outings, camping, nature walks, bird watching tours, and so forth?
4. Were the trails, for the most part, not maintained or was it usual to see a park ranger or other workers working on the trail?
5. Have there been any other crimes committed on the trail?

I'm convinced the Perp has left plenty of clues on that trail leading up to the murders, and we haven't yet become aware of them.

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
Unless the video was taken on an unseasonably warm day that the kids were off school, then it doesn't offer a valid comparison with the day of the murders.

Are you serious?

A video was taken that day, and showed two people besides the video-taker.

Abby Williams and the killer, video taken by Libby.

JMO
 
We have a similar area near here where people walk their dogs etc. There are times of the day when it's so crowded with people, dogs, and kids that it's unpleasant to walk there. Usually that's midmorning after the kids have all left for school, or after school when the kids get dropped off. If you go Sunday morning before church lets out, you might not even see another car. Most of the time it's spread out enough that you can occasionally hear but not see other people.

One time on a quiet day I got cornered by a mean and aggressive pittie* and when the owner saw what was happening she started making fun of me and urging the dog to keep me there until I "learned my lesson." Whatever that was supposed to be. I had my phone out to dial 911 before she called her dog off. When I got back to the parking lot she was loading the dog into a crate in the back of the pickup with another crate marked Beware of Dog. Another person who was arriving to walk told me the dog woman's boyfriend is a local drug dealer and that's why they trained the dogs to be so aggressive.

My point in bringing this up is that in a public area, you never know what kind of nut case you're going to run into randomly. I had backed off the path to try to avoid the dog. If this woman had pulled a gun and shot me, I'd have fallen into a brush-covered ditch, where I would not have been noticed for several minutes at best. The shot might have been heard, but there's private land and a shooting range not far away, so probably nobody would have paid attention. The woman might or might not have crossed paths with anybody else to say she was there. There would have been no DNA and no known motive.

I'm not saying the girls ran into a drug dealer with a mean dog. But random is random and if it wasn't somebody who knew them, or stalked them, then it could be literally anybody.

*Yes, I know most pit bulls are lovely dogs. This one wasn't. An aggressive pit bull with a mean owner is scary.
 
Please review the 2 videos of Sheriff Tobe Leazenby posted by the Delphi United Methodist Church on their website. Do you think he is speaking to a member of that congregation that he thinks is BG? Unable to post link but it is most recent devotional posted in May. Do you think there is significance in the Dec. 28 date?
 
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Oh sure I can.

Below is a YouTube video by a YT user that I referenced early on for the case. It was uploaded Dec. 29th, 2016, and appears to show a walk from the northwest part of Delphi, to the bridge and the end of MHB/the Southeast end.

There isn't one other human seen on the entire walk, and at some points he's in a residential part of Delphi. I'd imagine the walk took roughly an hour.

Popular? Sure. I just can't picture more than maybe ten people being there at any one time. Most of the time no people. Like the day I was there.

It's one of the reasons I didn't walk to the bridge, nobody else was around.

The walk from the Freedom Bridge to MHB starts at about 25:30.

OMG. ------ I think, I didn't see the video until today. Noticing: In between I also saw the date July 2015. The shadow at 13:34/41:27 looks like a man with a t-shirt with short sleeves. The shoes/steps aren't sounding like soft soles, but like hard soles with cleats (or very similar), especially when stepping over a transition with wooden planks once in the video. The shadow looks, like the person is holding a camera with his right hand near his right side of head at that moment. How did the person manage, that I don't hear one single breath? (My ears?)

Who does such a video with looking in front, back and around himself all the way from Pittsburg IN to MHB so often, that the viewer gets nearly dizzy? I'm sure, the videographer isn't a nature lover but someone curious/attentive like a spy.

With this video, all questions are answered re local or not and re knowledge of the area beforehand or not, I think. :(
 
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