Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[somequestions]

This was my thinking three years ago but my opinion on this has evolved.

My first assumption was: a crime like this (IMO it's a sexual homicide) MUST leave the offender's DNA. However, in a landmark study of child abduction murders, it was shown that a little more than half of cases yielded DNA evidence from the scene. My conclusion: it's not as common to have a perfect sample of a perpetrator's DNA as numerous tv shows and books would lead you to believe. In addition, the same article indicated that the presence of forensic evidence from a scene does not increase the solvability of a child abduction murder very much. Seems counter intuitive but the factor that accounted for most solved cases was LE being able to discover the relationship between victim and offender. And if LE couldn't do that? They had a very hard road ahead of them.

My second assumption: if BG has committed previous crimes, then his DNA is in the system. I'm starting to have a lot less confidence in this. There are about 4,000 untested rape kits in Indiana alone, for one thing. For another, have you noticed how many times cold cases are eventually solved by hits in CODIS but the time lapsed between the offender's crimes are really huge? A typical timeline might be: unsolved murder from 2003, convicted of second murder in 2008, samples finally matched 2014. Not sure what's going on with CODIS but it's not a perfect or quick matching system, that's for sure, though I grant you it's the best we have right now.

My third assumption: if detectives get a DNA match on a suspect then they immediately arrest him and it goes to trial where it's a slam dunk. I'm starting to question this. The standard guide for LE investigating child abduction murders (Brown & Keppel, 2012) states:

"Research has shown that most criminal investigations do not rely on forensic evidence as a means to solve the case, but to bolster the detectives' chance to use that evidence to obtain a confession from the suspect..."

If this is so, then the actions of LE in keeping DNA information close to the vest in the Delphi case becomes 100% clear.

I agree with the research. DNA is great, but you still need someone to connect it to. So people start to believe that since the case is not solved therefore there is no DNA evidence.

There comes a point where you need to be able to narrow the focus in any investigation. The most disappointing aspect of this case is that LE may end up chasing around sketches for years. And if nobody realizes they are wrong, the conclusion will always be that they just could not find the person in the sketch, no matter how much time passes by.

 

[Nerissa]

I agree with the research. DNA is great, but you still need someone to connect it to. So people start to believe that since the case is not solved therefore there is no DNA evidence.

There comes a point where you need to be able to narrow the focus in any investigation. The most disappointing aspect of this case is that LE may end up chasing around sketches for years. And if nobody realizes they are wrong, the conclusion will always be that they just could not find the person in the sketch, no matter how much time passes by.

My thing here is: LE is vocal about the perp being local...maybe in the room as LE is talking for goodness sake....That's some talk there...Where's the walk.....??

LE knows how to get DNA of a suspect without them suspecting it......

Where's the hang-up....there's a hang-up...IMO

Either: not local &/or not on the 'radar'

OR

Zilch for DNA.....

They may have a suspect - but it isn't solid: & it's gotta be darn solid if there's no DNA....

And even if a solid suspect: in these days: no DNA: probably no case...

JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Amazing post!

I, we, want this solved....I'm trying to get bare bones: & ask: why isn't it -?

That is an excellent question, and maybe the only legitimate one left to discuss!
1) I think a gigantic case of overconfidence might be to blame. Early on, LE had an image of the alleged killer, and an audio clip of his voice. The crime was sensational but occurred in a small town. Add to that what we have come to find out recently, that the crime scene had a lot of evidence(per the prosecutor) and I’m sure they thought after they made the photo and audio public, the killer would be recognized and an arrest would follow fairly quickly.
2) In addition to overconfidence, I think early on there was probably a bit of small town dismissal by LE of some tips and information that either came from disreputable types but were true, or were about people of some status that LE could not imagine being involved.
3) The biggest reason it hasn’t been solved is because LE has refused to release any information that might help someone make a connection between someone they know and the crime. They want the public’s help but won’t help us help them. They complain about all the rumors running amok, but the rumors and speculation are rampant because there is no information. It is mind bogglingly shortsighted.
This is all just my thoughts.

 

[Nerissa]

That is an excellent question, and maybe the only legitimate one left to discuss!
1) I think a gigantic case of overconfidence might be to blame. Early on, LE had an image of the alleged killer, and an audio clip of his voice. The crime was sensational but occurred in a small town. Add to that what we have come to find out recently, that the crime scene had a lot of evidence(per the prosecutor) and I’m sure they thought after they made the photo and audio public, the killer would be recognized and an arrest would follow fairly quickly.
2) In addition to overconfidence, I think early on there was probably a bit of small town dismissal by LE of some tips and information that either came from disreputable types but were true, or were about people of some status that LE could not imagine being involved.
3) The biggest reason it hasn’t been solved is because LE has refused to release any information that might help someone make a connection between someone they know and the crime. They want the public’s help but won’t help us help them. They complain about all the rumors running amok, but the rumors and speculation are rampant because there is no information. It is mind bogglingly shortsighted.
This is all just my thoughts.

Pretty much: YEP!

Thanks for this...

 

[Yemelyan]

My thing here is: LE is vocal about the perp being local...maybe in the room as LE is talking for goodness sake....That's some talk there...Where's the walk.....??

LE knows how to get DNA of a suspect without them suspecting it......

Where's the hang-up....there's a hang-up...IMO

Either: not local &/or not on the 'radar'

OR

Zilch for DNA.....

They may have a suspect - but it isn't solid: & it's gotta be darn solid if there's no DNA....

And even if a solid suspect: in these days: no DNA: probably no case...

JMO

I'm honestly thinking the perp is not yet on the radar (or, at least, wasn't at the time of the April press conference where the "young" sketch was released). JMO. I also think "local" is much wider than just Delphi or even Carroll County. I'm thinking local could even mean lived in Lafayette or Logansport at the time of the crime but regularly visited or spent time in Delphi at some point in the past.

In the Down the Hill podcast, both Robert Ives and Tobe Leazenby expressed that during the course of the investigation, they both had come across a small number of individuals who they thought, based on the facts so far uncovered, this person could have done it. But both said none of these individuals struck them with such a certainty that they thought "yes, this is the one." I'm paraphrasing, and of course neither of these men are at the helm of the investigation. But it's a bit of info that tells you something about where the investigation stands.

 

[Boxer]

That is an excellent question, and maybe the only legitimate one left to discuss!
1) I think a gigantic case of overconfidence might be to blame. Early on, LE had an image of the alleged killer, and an audio clip of his voice. The crime was sensational but occurred in a small town. Add to that what we have come to find out recently, that the crime scene had a lot of evidence(per the prosecutor) and I’m sure they thought after they made the photo and audio public, the killer would be recognized and an arrest would follow fairly quickly.
2) In addition to overconfidence, I think early on there was probably a bit of small town dismissal by LE of some tips and information that either came from disreputable types but were true, or were about people of some status that LE could not imagine being involved.
3) The biggest reason it hasn’t been solved is because LE has refused to release any information that might help someone make a connection between someone they know and the crime. They want the public’s help but won’t help us help them. They complain about all the rumors running amok, but the rumors and speculation are rampant because there is no information. It is mind bogglingly shortsighted.
This is all just my thoughts.

Hope they have DNA.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Can one of the locals answer this question please.

In Indiana, under what conditions is someone who is arrested fingerprinted? I have come to learn that not everyone arrested gets fingerprinted....which I was under the wrong assumption; I thought they did.

I was just reading a thread about crimes in Ontario, Canada and one post showed the trail of crimes and devastation one Perp can cause. In the referenced case, the Perp started out early in life and his crimes amplified to multiple murders. Fingerprints taken early in his crime history could have potentially stopped him much earlier.

The point I'm trying to make here is that I highly doubt the Delphi Perp woke up one day and decided to kill two girls. I am convinced he too has a long history of offenses that have built up to this point of destruction.

Thanks in advance if anyone knows the answer to my fingerprint question.
Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Andreee]

My thing here is: LE is vocal about the perp being local...maybe in the room as LE is talking for goodness sake....That's some talk there...Where's the walk.....??

LE knows how to get DNA of a suspect without them suspecting it......

Where's the hang-up....there's a hang-up...IMO

Either: not local &/or not on the 'radar'

OR

Zilch for DNA.....

They may have a suspect - but it isn't solid: & it's gotta be darn solid if there's no DNA....

And even if a solid suspect: in these days: no DNA: probably no case...

JMO

That is an excellent question, and maybe the only legitimate one left to discuss!
1) I think a gigantic case of overconfidence might be to blame. Early on, LE had an image of the alleged killer, and an audio clip of his voice. The crime was sensational but occurred in a small town. Add to that what we have come to find out recently, that the crime scene had a lot of evidence(per the prosecutor) and I’m sure they thought after they made the photo and audio public, the killer would be recognized and an arrest would follow fairly quickly.
2) In addition to overconfidence, I think early on there was probably a bit of small town dismissal by LE of some tips and information that either came from disreputable types but were true, or were about people of some status that LE could not imagine being involved.
3) The biggest reason it hasn’t been solved is because LE has refused to release any information that might help someone make a connection between someone they know and the crime. They want the public’s help but won’t help us help them. They complain about all the rumors running amok, but the rumors and speculation are rampant because there is no information. It is mind bogglingly shortsighted.
This is all just my thoughts.

Yes, I read some info from one of the LE involved in the case who says when there is reason to release more info, that they will! Well, can't they understand that many of us in the public are confused by the little info they have released, particularly the sketches!

 

[Charlot123]

.

It's just too hard to tell with the bad quality video at such a distance. I will say though that there are quite a number of Delphians that I've seen who favor the sketches in some way. So I've had the opposite reaction you've had.

The sketches? Yes, no doubt. I, too, saw many Delphians resembling young BG, and some - old BG.

I see zero similarity between either sketch and Libby’s video of the BG.

 

[Andreee]

.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Yes, I read some info from one of the LE involved in the case who says when there is reason to release more info, that they will! Well, can't they understand that many of us in the public are confused by the little info they have released, particularly the sketches!

Plus you would think that the fact that 3+ years out the case is still unsolved, might, just maybe, qualify as a reason good enough to release more information. I fear their overconfidence has morphed into arrogance.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

MOO what saw from the photo then the woers way they released animated video is a 40ish white guy with a mean and piercing look. The picelation ia too great for detail so I could buy that he is younger and lighter than he looks.

40s, not homeless, dressed to blend, except the boots/shoes which look expensive to me. Just a first impression.

Oh, someone finally, who recognized the somewhat "special" shoes (if expensive or not, Idk), haha! I'm thankful!

 

[BNA]

You think the gaming community is a big part of the killer's world?

A big part of the world of those closest to him on a day to day basis.

 

[Charlot123]

I am already feeling sorry for the jurors that will sit on this case.

I would like to see the Judge put a gag order on the specifics of how these children were found, and the details of the condition of their remains. We the public, do not need to know those details, and I'd like to preserve some dignity for the children in death, and minimize further trauma for the families. The only thing releasing the details of their remains will do, is serve to ignite copycats, and feed the prurient interest of the gore seekers.

Amateur opinion and speculation

I agree. Any crime is apt to be copied. But a lot depends on how they present the murderer. Romanticizing of the Columbine dyad or Ted Bundy generated an abundance of copycats.

What exactly some cruel sicko did with the girls no one needs to know. And as you said, the girls’ death was traumatizing to the relatives (and the friends, too); MOO - it will make no sense to discuss the details.

Enough that the girls’ lives were wrestled away from them.

 

[Falling Down]

I think the fact that he is walking on a bridge with sizable gaps in between each railroad tie caused him to alter his normal gait.

From what I've read about the bridge, the last 100 feet or more of the southeast end of the bridge would not have been too challenging to walk, that day. The SE end doesn't have the missing tied and what have you, compared to the middle of it and the northwest end.

I don't think his gait shows much of anything, I think he pivoted towards the girls, made more of a diagonal approach towards them those last roughly 70 feet of his walk before the abduction.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

I want it solved too. Kudos to you for getting bare bones and asking this type of question. It's so easy on these boards to get wrapped up in ever greater flights of fantasy to explain the presumed lack of movement on the case.

I have been really delving into the research of criminologists on child abduction murders and the offenders who commit these types of crimes. I had the assumption that Abby and Libby's murders were way out of the ordinary - all the evidence it seemed they had, but still unsolved. Instead I found that the trajectory of this case is actually very typical for this type of crime if the offender was a stranger to them. So then that reminds me to be patient, to wait and watch.

Correct.

Stranger abductions of children here in the U.S. are rare.

Kidnapped children make headlines, but abduction is rare in U.S.

The NCMEC says that abductions by strangers are the rarest type of cases of missing children. Strangers are most likely to attempt to abduct a child as they head to or from school, the center said.

 

[Tiger Stripes]

Hope they have DNA.

^^^This. #1 issue in this case. No DNA? The Delphi killer walks free... (yes, despite *all kinds of evidence* pointing toward several "key invidividuals" -- evidence heretofore *not* released/revealed by LE, and with good reason).

Oh, that LE could "time-travel" -- back to Deer Creek that first night in February, 2017, when Abby and Libby were first reported missing... But alas, there *is* no "time-travel" option at this time...

Thus, LE (and all of us, too) wait, wait, wait for the Delphi killer to make a mis-step. Will it happen? Your thoughts, WebSleuthers?

 

[Ozoner]

^^^This. #1 issue in this case. No DNA? The Delphi killer walks free... (yes, despite *all kinds of evidence* pointing toward several "key invidividuals" -- evidence heretofore *not* released/revealed by LE, and with good reason).

Oh, that LE could "time-travel" -- back to Deer Creek that first night in February, 2017, when Abby and Libby were first reported missing... But alas, there *is* no "time-travel" option at this time...

Thus, LE (and all of us, too) wait, wait, wait for the Delphi killer to make a mis-step. Will it happen? Your thoughts, WebSleuthers?

You have "key individuals" in quotation marks. Where is that quote coming from?

 

[Maplesyrup]

Who is this Stroup guy? If he’s not a MSM reporter and as his telephone recorded interview via youtube video has been taken down, as Subshineray wrote that leads to other questions as well.

post #910
Found Deceased - IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #23

From what I've read about the bridge, the last 100 feet or more of the southeast end of the bridge would not have been too challenging to walk, that day. The SE end doesn't have the missing tied and what have you, compared to the middle of it and the northwest end.

I don't think his gait shows much of anything, I think he pivoted towards the girls, made more of a diagonal approach towards them those last roughly 70 feet of his walk before the abduction.

JMO

After watching the video, it appears to me that his diagonal approach happened with the purpose of creating a barrier so the girls wouldn't try to zip past him. The move toward the middle IMO was to cut them off so they would sense danger and not even try to move past him [his use of body language before he perhaps pulled some sort of weapon out?] All IMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

After watching the video, it appears to me that his diagonal approach happened with the purpose of creating a barrier so the girls wouldn't try to zip past him. The move toward the middle IMO was to cut them off so they would sense danger and not even try to move past him [his use of body language before he perhaps pulled some sort of weapon out?] All IMO.

In one of GH’s videos, he matched up the trees in the background and the gaps and wood grain of the ties to align with the photo and iirc suggested Libby would’ve been about 70 feet away from the suspect when she captured him in the video, and near the far end. The distance would’ve also accounted for the grainy quality of the photo, much like trying to zoom in on a distance object in a photo, especially with poorer graphics in older cellphones, the clear crisp quality is just not there.

I also recall somebody posting here with firsthand knowledge of the bridge who stated, because of the narrowness, poor condition, no railings etc it was commonly used as a one way crossing. If so, after the girls crossed it, this could be the reason they stayed on that end waiting for the man on the bridge to either turn back or finish crossing it.

I think this is the video I’m remembering -