Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #124

[Tricia]

Welcome back to the Delphi Murders discussion thread.

On the afternoon of Feb. 13th, 2017, best friends Abigail Williams and Liberty German were dropped off at a bridge in the town of Delphi. On Feb 14th their bodies were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the bridge.
The Sheriff's office gave a press conference on 4/22/19 and we have some solid information. Please take a look below

HERE IS THE NEW SKETCH FROM THE PRESS CONFERENCE ON 4/22/19

HERE IS THE NEW AUDIO. IT'S-A BIT LONGER THAN THE FIRST AUDIO:
https://www.in.gov/isp/files/Delphi_Audio_Edited_2019x3.wav

Here is the old audio in a loop:
http://www.in.gov/isp/files/Delphi_male_voice_loop.mp3

LATEST PRESS CONFERENCE 4/22/19

FOR MORE CLICK HERE FOR THE CARROL COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE FACEBOOK PAGE.

Anyone with information about this case, no matter how insignificant, is encouraged to call the Delphi Homicide Investigation Tip Line at (844) 459-5786.

Information can also be reported by calling the Indiana State Police at(800) 382-7537, or the Carroll County Sheriff's Department at (765) 564-2413.

Information can also be emailed to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com

video of press conference from 2017 02/22/17: https://www.facebook.com/NewsCenter1...4728963476130/

Let's do this. Let's commit to getting this killer's picture and voice out there any possible way we can.

Pictures of Abby and Libby

Link to post with all Threads #1-98 (Courtesy of margarita25)

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Rules Etiquette & Information

Case map by skibaboo updated with grayhuze crime flow video

Grayhuze youtube channel

Verified Insiders: None in this case at this time. Verified Professional, Member michael.gartley, is a Verified Expert in Imaging Science.

RULES OF THIS DISCUSSION
DO NOT post photos of random individuals (including persons featured in MSM articles about other area crimes) to compare to the images of unidentified suspect on the bridge.

PLEASE DO NOT POST PICTURES OF SEX OFFENDERS!

Do not sleuth family, PERIOD. This includes previous public records which have nothing to do with this case. They are victims here. Plain and simple.

If you feel you have a tip, by all means, phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities and give them time to follow your lead.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Some posts have been removed as off topic. Hopefully the following clarifies.

For those enquiring about the use of initials, reference is made in TOS under Name Calling and Derogatory Name Variations by simply stating "Initials may be used, and are encouraged".

There are rules and then there are policies. WS policy is to NOT use full names so that the names of innocent people are not forever etched in stone on a crime sleuthing website when they may have had nothing to do with the actual crime. It could also have potential legal ramifications that nobody needs. The policy has been that we can use full names for a victim and a POI/suspect who has been officially named by LE but for most others we use initials. It is a matter of discretion and WSers have been adhering to that policy for about 20 years now and it has served us well, so it is very possible for members to get used to it. If we can get to know members by their anonymous user IDs such as 1973Aplus8, surely we can get used to initials used throughout a specific case.

Example: One thread some of us are familiar with, a person not only self-identified, but also stated they knew they were a POI although LE had not named them as such. That highly qualified person subsequently reported they were having difficulty getting employment because their name was showing up to potential employers in google searches connected to discussion of a horrific murder.

This is Thread #123 for Abby and Libby and we've have done alright so far. If someone wants to complete the list of initials and abbreviations, please submit it to us via private message and we will include it in future Opening Posts. Otherwise, please stay on topic in this thread.

If you have questions, please do not discuss them on the thread so we don't derail the thread with off topic conversation. You may private message a Mod or Admin for clarification.

Thanks.

 

[Sillybilly]

That one of the girls was forced to watch is rumor.

Please do not bring rumors to WS and discuss them. Thanks.

 

[Yemelyan]

I can't helping thinking how the Catholic Church tried to keep details and truths away from the public as to what kind of horrors were done to children in their care and under their influence. I just don't agree on the point of keeping it quiet as to what is being done in America to children. Just one piece of information could in fact help others to see clearly what someone they know may be involved in. I despise covering up the horrible truths. I think society needs to hear them. AJMO

A big difference in this example and that of a specific crime like the Delphi murders is that information about what kind of horrors were done to children by the Catholic Church could absolutely be reported on without the particulars of molestations, rapes, etc being attached to a particular victim's identity. Other than that, I agree that atrocities should not be downplayed. I just think there needs to be a balance between privacy and this information.

 

[Falling Down]

After watching the video, it appears to me that his diagonal approach happened with the purpose of creating a barrier so the girls wouldn't try to zip past him. The move toward the middle IMO was to cut them off so they would sense danger and not even try to move past him [his use of body language before he perhaps pulled some sort of weapon out?] All IMO.

People have tried to interpret his movements on that old bridge, based on a grainy video.

I interpret his movements in those 1.5 seconds as confident, purposeful, deliberate. He knows exactly what he's doing, and he already had some semblance of control of the situation. The girls' guard was down. Not totally down, obviously, but they had no idea what his intentions were in those last seconds before the abduction.

he knew exactly what he was doing, as had practiced it IMO.

JMO

 

[electricuncalm]

They were a couple hours north of where this occurred, in Evansdale, though there were 2 victims in each case, which is indeed odd , I do not think the cases are related however .

Evansdale was more of a "stereotypical" abduction murder if you will , Im actually stunned that one hasn't been solved.

I agree with your assessment on this case , another possibility is someone posing as an authority figure or a property owner, and telling the girls to follow him .

Without a confession we may never know if the girls did indeed yell for help, its possible they just weren't heard. What I find harder is that none of them made a break for safety.

Which leads me to believe that either 1) they were in fear or 2) they weren't aware of the impending danger, even though they videoed someone approaching them.

But we know that this offender was successful in getting them to walk .5 mi to the spot they were found.

i searched through the thread but never saw this corrected... Evansdale Iowa and Delphi Indiana are about 395 miles apart, a roughly 6 1/2 hour drive. Not a huge difference, especially for one who travels regularly but still.

 

[electricuncalm]

Ok, I guess I’ll “go there” to emboss my point. When I was studying crimes against women, there are a few that stand out beyond others; Bundy being one. Invariably , when scanning for research, you will be served up the most gruesome and disrespectful image from a notorious murder decades ago. The poor Victim has been revictimized every time that d@mn image is displayed, or the exceedingly gruesome details about her remains are posted and discussed for morbid and prurient interests. The discussions I reference are not clinical, or for crime fighting purposes. They are disgusting and insensitive.

Some things should remain confidential amongst law enforcement, the family, and the jurors. There should be strict gag orders with stiff penalties if this trust is breached.

We owe this to the Victims. They should have their dignity in death.

amateur opinion and speculation

you nailed that one!
Yesterday I was searching for photos of the victim of the Lululemon murder.. it took several pages of gore to get to a photo of the victim alive and well, which is what I wanted.

 

[sunshineray]

Well said.
I will give you another example. On FB you will see people who share images or videos of children in compromised situations to "raise awareness". B*ll***t. Either these people are dumber than a box of hair, or they are "advertising" their wares. By their "raising awareness" they are actually at risk of being perceived as distributing illegal materials.
I see this in the same manner as Victims of sexual assault and murder. Let LE sort through the sordid details and images; *not* the general public.

Okay - you will all be happy to know I am jumping off the soap box and going for a bike ride in the sunshine and fresh air.
Peace to all, and justice for the 2 Roses.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Anyone who shares images of children as you describe would be arrested, no? Doesn't FB take them down, report them, kick those people off their platform?

 

[Charlot123]

From what I've read about the bridge, the last 100 feet or more of the southeast end of the bridge would not have been too challenging to walk, that day. The SE end doesn't have the missing tied and what have you, compared to the middle of it and the northwest end.

I don't think his gait shows much of anything, I think he pivoted towards the girls, made more of a diagonal approach towards them those last roughly 70 feet of his walk before the abduction.

JMO

We have a loop with some frames probably cut out, too. It might generate the wrong impression. And that makes the situation more difficult. I don’t know what his gait is - all I can say is, if all his steps are like this, it is neuropathic gait, if just one, something else.

LE posted that loop so that we could see “mannerisms”, though, meaning, it should be his gait???

All this havoc, including two sketches, neither of them reminding the man on the bridge, is disorienting, not helping.

 

[sunshineray]

No, not really. Look at it this way. Let's say a man abducts a young girl, murdering both of her parents in the process. He keeps her hostage for several months and sexually abuses her during that time. When he's caught and put on trial, prosecutors go after him for the murders and for kidnapping. He plea bargains on the murder charges which will put him behind bars for the rest of his life. Should we the public also get to hear about the sexual abuse just so that we have a full realization of the type of predator that he was? Or does the girl's emotional well-being trump that? Since he's already going away forever for the murders, I think the argument could be made that her privacy is more important than our curiosity.

However, I don't say that anyone is wrong necessarily for feeling differently about it. I could also see a scenario where a deceased victim's family wants someone punished to the "full extent" of the law which would mean bringing these details in.

That is a different senario as the child is still alive. In that situation, with the guilty party in jail for the additional crimes, also effecting the child, then no purpose would be served.

I just feel that hiding or downplaying behaviors in our fellow humans because they are horrible and need not be examined only leads to those things they do being muted and soften, when they should be haunting us all and spurring us on to stop these crimes. We can't downplay what makes up horrified about eachother. That's all I'm trying to address. I personally think every crime scene photo should be banned from the internet but not the information that they can supply.

 

[Charlot123]

Roses, While I truly understand your words, your feelings...there's a killer of children on the loose, three years after he's killed he's still walking around in society unidentified and unpunished. Abby and Libby's dignity can never be besmirched for they are two child victims. Whenever I look at the Holocaust victims I feel the same, their dignity remains intact, they were victims.

That said, I agree with you that at trial the privacy of Abby and Libby must be guarded as best it can be while still making sure that society knows, knows well, just what kind of monster(s) it has produced. It's the only way to stop it, you must identify and display evil or mental disability for all to see. AJMO

All that we the public need to know from the trial is the proof the prosecutor uses to establish “beyond reasonable doubt”. It should be enough for us, the public, to have no doubt. Then, even if he walks free (can happen), I hope he will be known and remembered.

The Holocaust victims...do you know why Germany, after what the Nazi did, is a normal country now?

Own Denazification processes.

Big courts, like Nuremberg, judged the bigger Nazi. And some were let go. But after that, they were facing own, German, denazification trials. Speer (who was acquitted in Nuremberg but spent 4 years in prison after denazification trial), said the second one was far worse than the first one. The country, ashamed for its role in world history, proceeded with judging those responsible for the loss of millions, if international trials would let them go.

So this parallel I would accept. Imagine the court can not establish “beyond the reasonable doubt”, but own citizens see it...

 

[Yemelyan]

That is a different senario as the child is still alive. In that situation, with the guilty party in jail for the additional crimes, also effecting the child, then no purpose would be served.

I just feel that hiding or downplaying behaviors in our fellow humans because they are horrible and need not be examined only leads to those things they do being muted and soften, when they should be haunting us all and spurring us on to stop these crimes. We can't downplay what makes up horrified about eachother. That's all I'm trying to address. I personally think every crime scene photo should be banned from the internet but not the information that they can supply.

I guess we can agree to disagree on this, then. By the grace of God I don't have a murdered child but if I did, one thing that would haunt me is all the people - from pedophiles to mere curiosity and drama seekers - who were consuming details about my child's death as if it was nothing more than entertainment.

Edited to add: you couldn't read a book that said, "Killers have been known to do such horrible things as..." that talks about crimes generally with no specific names attached, and get the same call to action that makes you want to get these predators behind bars?

 

[Charlot123]

And when this perpetrator is on trial for his crimes against children, do you not feel the public should know what was done? I do not mean photographically, I mean by description.

There are 2 sides to it. I don’t want to, personally. But if nothing is said, expect an eruption of gossips online. And then people would believe all these gossips.

So maybe after the process, put something on the drive (not in photos, of course), like the prosecution did in Watts’ process, and dump it? Just to cut off someone’s fantasies?

 

[sunshineray]

All that we the public need to know from the trial is the proof the prosecutor uses to establish “beyond reasonable doubt”. It should be enough for us, the public, to have no doubt. Then, even if he walks free (can happen), I hope he will be known and remembered.

The details, how the crime scene looked, why DC said something along the lines of him being nauseated, is secondary. He killed two teenage girls. Enough.

Respectfully disagree...society has become too desensitized to the horror it creates.

 

[Andreee]

Plus you would think that the fact that 3+ years out the case is still unsolved, might, just maybe, qualify as a reason good enough to release more information. I fear their overconfidence has morphed into arrogance.

No, not really. Look at it this way. Let's say a man abducts a young girl, murdering both of her parents in the process. He keeps her hostage for several months and sexually abuses her during that time. When he's caught and put on trial, prosecutors go after him for the murders and for kidnapping. He plea bargains on the murder charges which will put him behind bars for the rest of his life. Should we the public also get to hear about the sexual abuse just so that we have a full realization of the type of predator that he was? Or does the girl's emotional well-being trump that? Since he's already going away forever for the murders, I think the argument could be made that her privacy is more important than our curiosity.

However, I don't say that anyone is wrong necessarily for feeling differently about it. I could also see a scenario where a deceased victim's family wants someone punished to the "full extent" of the law which would mean bringing these details in.

I agree, there is absolutely no necessity for the public at large in hearing or reading or seeing the extent of a victim's abuse and/or torture experienced at the hands of a perpetrator, particularly a minor child. Yes, the jurors in a case should if germaine to the case, but I think there is a need to preserve the dignity of the victim as well as the family members.

 

[sunshineray]

I guess we can agree to disagree on this, then. By the grace of God I don't have a murdered child but if I did, one thing that would haunt me is all the people - from pedophiles to mere curiosity and drama seekers - who were consuming details about my child's death as if it was nothing more than entertainment.

Edited to add: you couldn't read a book that said, "Killers have been known to do such horrible things as..." that talks about crimes generally with no specific names attached, and get the same call to action that makes you want to get these predators behind bars?

History is made and written about every day. How we choose to learn from it or ignore it is our choice. I will also agree to disagree. I mean no harm to others, especially victims of crime and their families.

 

[Andreee]

We have a loop with some frames probably cut out, too. It might generate the wrong impression. And that makes the situation more difficult. I don’t know what his gait is - all I can say is, if all his steps are like this, it is neuropathic gait, if just one, something else.

LE posted that loop so that we could see “mannerisms”, though, meaning, it should be his gait???

All this havoc, including two sketches, neither of them reminding the man on the bridge, is disorienting, not helping.

I just don't 'get' why the loop, I mean perhaps that is all they had! If not, I really don't see the harm in giving the public one more of BG's steps to make things just a bit easier to gauge!

 

[rosesfromangels]

Anyone who shares images of children as you describe would be arrested, no? Doesn't FB take them down, report them, kick those people off their platform?

Not enough LE to track down and arrest all these miscreants, but when it is put in front of them, they do. Further, when they start seeing patterns they zero in.
But yes, it's an offense punishable by prison time, and several years depending on the quantity and severity of the images.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Ozoner]

That is a different senario as the child is still alive. In that situation, with the guilty party in jail for the additional crimes, also effecting the child, then no purpose would be served.

I just feel that hiding or downplaying behaviors in our fellow humans because they are horrible and need not be examined only leads to those things they do being muted and soften, when they should be haunting us all and spurring us on to stop these crimes. We can't downplay what makes up horrified about each other. That's all I'm trying to address. I personally think every crime scene photo should be banned from the internet but not the information that they can supply.

I agree with you: whether the victim is still alive make all the difference. In the Closs case, the details should be kept private unless the victim chooses to disclose them. In a case where the victim is dead, everything should be out in the open.
-
People should not be allowed to minimize and sugar coat was has happened. People should be forced to face, and address, the full brutality of crimes like this one. Otherwise, the killers and victims turn into abstractions and nobody bothers to do anything to drive change.

 

[IceIce9]

I agree with you, @rosesfromangels and I believe there has been a notable shift in how LE handles the details in cases like these over the past few years, towards affording more privacy to victims and families. When I was growing up it was very common to see headlines like "raped and murdered" and now the sexual assault part of that is typically omitted if the deceased victim's identity has been reported/is known to the public. Obviously survivors of sexual assault are no longer identified in normal circumstances and I think this shift goes along with that.

I also think, this is JMO, that in this particular case the investigators have a an attitude like "we'll be damned if this perpetrator gets the satisfaction of having the details of how he violated these girls blasted for all to see." As I said, MOO only.

In the clinic where I worked several years ago, we had a patient whose son had gone missing. She came to our clinic several times a week for treatments so we knew her well.

He was missing for over 6 weeks, and there were many searches. Finally when he was found his body was in such bad shape it couldn’t be identified until autopsy.

The next day, the front page of the newspaper featured the story that he was found. And in the article it detailed the fact that much of his body had been consumed by animals, including his entire face, so an autopsy had been required to identify him.

I will never forget how shocked I was to read that, and how devastated she was. Definitely information that did not need to be released as it caused a great deal of grief to the family.